After yesterday's performance I'm worried we will go back down as i can't see any leaders in the team and weaknesses all over the pitch, i have nothing against Vincent but the model of buying young players and selling them on is alright if we manage to escape but if we do go down there value will , i remember not so long ago Vincent saying we could have a 100 million player here , have i missed something.

Yes. Youve missed the bit where patience is required in developing that player. Did you think he meant we have a £100m player here now?

Clive 1960 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:08 am

i remember not so long ago Vincent saying we could have a 100 million player here , have i missed something.

Vincent comes out with a lot of crap sometimes such as this and the comment about us vs. City where it would be “the worst we’ll be all season” - it’s quite horrifying that we’ve been far worse than that in at least half of the games we’ve played since then.

More often than not it's a flawed risky model that's not beneficial. If it was that easy everybody would be doing it with success that's not to say it can't be done, if the idea is to develop the players slowly away throwing them into the bearpit of the PL for maximum exposure whilst on a results basis failing in a spectacular fashion is not the right way to go about it. League preservation should always be a priority I think somewhere along the way that's been overlooked or viewed as a secondary factor.

Iam amazed there isn't a thread or 10 on this subject already

I saw positives yesterday and when Vinnie analyses the game in this week's training he will get a solution.Beyer and Ekdal have been a massive miss and things will improve Its far too early to get despondent. Everton.Sheff Utd. Bournemouth.Palace all in our mini league all lost
Luton gained only 1 point at Forest another two teams in our mini league.We are far better than yesterday and will stay up UTC

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:42 am

I saw positives yesterday and when Vinnie analyses the game in this week's training he will get a solution.Beyer and Ekdal have been a massive miss and things will improve Its far too early to get despondent. Everton.Sheff Utd. Bournemouth.Palace all in our mini league all lost
Luton gained only 1 point at Forest another two teams in our mini league.We are far better than yesterday and will stay up UTC

Where did you see positive’s yesterday?
We “only” gained a point at Forest
Forest are not in our mini league

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:42 am

I saw positives yesterday and when Vinnie analyses the game in this week's training he will get a solution.Beyer and Ekdal have been a massive miss and things will improve Its far too early to get despondent. Everton.Sheff Utd. Bournemouth.Palace all in our mini league all lost
Luton gained only 1 point at Forest another two teams in our mini league.We are far better than yesterday and will stay up UTC

Good lad, Woodley. I like positive people. And I'm not being sarcastic.

‘Good lad, Woodley. I like positive people. And I'm being sarcastic.
[/quote]
When does being positive become being deluded, don’t think we are far off that now. Cannot believe VK is making error after error and the transfer window is now looking so bad . It’s very worrying.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:42 am

Beyer and Ekdal have been a massive miss

Ekdal has never played in the Premier League, we don't know if he's been a miss or not, never mind a massive one. He may be as overwhelmed as O'Shea and Al-Dakhil. And let's face it, you could play Baresi and Moore but if there's no midfield...

We desperately need Beyer back. Our best defender by a distance and AAD looks more comfortable next to him. A massive miss.

Ekdal is the best centre half at the club

Our poor performances dont just hinge around our CH's. Granted our two best ones are injured but yesterday we played the first half with just one midfielder in Cullen. Berge had played two games for Norway, went straight back in and we know defensively he is just too soft. Then we started with two wingers, one of whom showed how lazy he was and the other could not get into the game, then replaced with someone who can beat players but absolutely no end product or final pass. THere is no confidence at present-no one wants the ball. VK needs to find a hard core of 8 or 9 who he starts every week, that includes Brownhill, then uses the younger wide men in the last period of games. He does not seem to be learning from games, and there seems to be minimum "connection" between coaches and team at present

Im not arsed if we go down. Just do what we did last season

Florian wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:44 am

Im not arsed if we go down. Just do what we did last season

I'll second that.

We're not ready yet, but the money will come in handy.
Much more enjoyable in the Championship imo.

Yeah, it doesn’t quite work like that.

It's pointless getting promoted if you just readily accept & are even comfortable with the idea of relegation. The reality might be the case of relegation but the idea is you are supposed to make some sort of fist of it to make the promotion worthwhile in the first place.

BOYSIE31 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:26 am

Ekdal is the best centre half at the club

Unfortunately Kompany doesn’t see him as 1st or 2nd choice

I cringe so much when I see posts along the lines of “just keep VK and this team will walk the Championship again”

Last season we had posts along the lines of “this team will finish top 10 in the PL”

If/ when we do go down, I suspect it will be another big shock for some posters. We absolutely will not walk the league again playing like this and with these players.

Ekdal has played 9 Championship games and some are casting him as our saviour. And on top of that some have decided the Championship is always going to be a cakewalk.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:21 am

I cringe so much when I see posts along the lines of “just keep VK and this team will walk the Championship again”

Last season we had posts along the lines of “this team will finish top 10 in the PL”

If/ when we do go down, I suspect it will be another big shock for some posters. We absolutely will not walk the league again playing like this and with these players.

The championship is crap and it’s even worse this year

However I do agree with your sentiment, getting relegated after being spanked all season will be very difficult to get promoted. The players won’t know how to win.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:42 am

I saw positives yesterday....

Really?
All i saw was a complete s**tshow against an under strength Brentford.

Watching our defence yesterday i really can't understand why Vincent let McNally go out on loan.
Surely he'd be a better backup for Beyer than what we had yesterday ?

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:42 am

I saw positives yesterday and when Vinnie analyses the game in this week's training he will get a solution.Beyer and Ekdal have been a massive miss and things will improve Its far too early to get despondent. Everton.Sheff Utd. Bournemouth.Palace all in our mini league all lost
Luton gained only 1 point at Forest another two teams in our mini league.We are far better than yesterday and will stay up UTC

Thanks for this Woodley. I needed picking up this morning. I hope you are right mate.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:17 am

It's pointless getting promoted if you just readily accept & are even comfortable with the idea of relegation. The reality might be the case of relegation but the idea is you are supposed to make some sort of fist of it to make the promotion worthwhile in the first place.

Pointless not being good enough or gelled enough to compete either
Give it our best shot but if we go down so what

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:21 am

I cringe so much when I see posts along the lines of “just keep VK and this team will walk the Championship again”

Last season we had posts along the lines of “this team will finish top 10 in the PL”

If/ when we do go down, I suspect it will be another big shock for some posters. We absolutely will not walk the league again playing like this and with these players.

The club has accumulated a debt of £200 million, eventually, this will have repercussions for us.

Florian wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:35 pm

Pointless not being good enough or gelled enough to compete either
Give it our best shot but if we go down so what

Hopefully it won't come to that.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:21 am

I cringe so much when I see posts along the lines of “just keep VK and this team will walk the Championship again”

Last season we had posts along the lines of “this team will finish top 10 in the PL”

If/ when we do go down, I suspect it will be another big shock for some posters. We absolutely will not walk the league again playing like this and with these players.

I’m also worried after yesterday. I think we have some really special talents in attacking areas but have just not strengthened the midfield enough. What is worrying for me is that, having made that mistake, we’re not playing the right players in midfield. Brownhill Cullen & Cork wouldn’t be the best midfield in the Prem but stronger than Cullen/Berge which must be the weakest and most lightweight in the Prem.

But pretty sure this team would do very well in the Championship.

We need a three in there minimum and to

daveisaclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:23 am

Ekdal has played 9 Championship games and some are casting him as our saviour. And on top of that some have decided the Championship is always going to be a cakewalk.

He's also an International. Fingers crossed he can set up when fit

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:42 am

I saw positives yesterday and when Vinnie analyses the game in this week's training he will get a solution.Beyer and Ekdal have been a massive miss and things will improve Its far too early to get despondent. Everton.Sheff Utd. Bournemouth.Palace all in our mini league all lost
Luton gained only 1 point at Forest another two teams in our mini league.We are far better than yesterday and will stay up UTC

Not being sarcastic
but where exactly did you see any positives from that performance yesterday
just asking

I agree if we go down , I would much prefer to be winning in the championship than losing in premier league.

But the problem is if the season carries on like it is now and we are in the bottom three all season and playing like we are, I would expect fans patience to be exhausted and things become toxic so VK doesn’t want to be around to take us up next season.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:21 am

I cringe so much when I see posts along the lines of “just keep VK and this team will walk the Championship again”

Last season we had posts along the lines of “this team will finish top 10 in the PL”

If/ when we do go down, I suspect it will be another big shock for some posters. We absolutely will not walk the league again playing like this and with these players.

I mean Kompany has shown he’s capable of performing in the Championship. 3 defeats all season. The likes of Ramsey who can’t get in our team was one of the standout attackers in the league (note Benson and Zaroury too). When you look at Leicester now you’d be hard pressed to think our team didn’t have similar talent levels.

I think it’s worth remembering the team that won the title was pretty average until around now (funnily enough it was on this day last year we were diabolical in the first half at Sunderland before the big turnaround second half). So yes you are right playing like this right now perhaps not but if we’d have said at half time in that game, we will only lose another 2 games all season, not sure how many woulda believed you! Point is there was and is a long way to go.

Wokingclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:57 pm

He's also an International. Fingers crossed he can set up when fit

He's got 6 caps for a team that didn't get close to qualifying for the upcoming Euro.

He was good in very limited appearances last season but I fear the people casting him as a saviour for our awful defence are just setting themselves up for another disappoinment.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:13 pm

I mean Kompany has shown he’s capable of performing in the Championship. 3 defeats all season. The likes of Ramsey who can’t get in our team was one of the standout attackers in the league (note Benson and Zaroury too). When you look at Leicester now you’d be hard pressed to think our team didn’t have similar talent levels.

I think it’s worth remembering the team that won the title was pretty average until around now (funnily enough it was on this day last year we were diabolical in the first half at Sunderland before the big turnaround second half). So yes you are right playing like this right now perhaps not but if we’d have said at half time in that game, we will only lose another 2 games all season, not sure how many woulda believed you! Point is there was and is a long way to go.

Very fair points and observations.

The reason I struggle with envisioning a similar Champ season is the lack of leaders in the team we’ve assembled. Whilst there are individuals with talent, I don’t see anyone doing the dirty stuff and earning the right to play like Barnes did, for example.

It would need a few leaders bringing in. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that though and that we can actually turn this season around with an epiphany very soon.

He ain't a savoury , but he's certainly better than Oshea .

getbennyon wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:49 pm

The club has accumulated a debt of £200 million, eventually, this will have repercussions for us.

Not sure that’s true.

ElectroClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:27 am

Really?
All i saw was a complete s**tshow against an under strength Brentford.

Trafford was pretty impressive in goal...despite all the criticism he attracts on this site.

Billyblah wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:59 pm

Trafford was pretty impressive in goal...despite all the criticism he attracts on this site.

Impressive in goal ???? He made a few good saves what you'd expect a Keeper to do, the rest of his play wasn't impressive at all

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:50 pm

Not sure that’s true.

I'd say it's far higher but it doesn't paint an accurate reflection because you can reduce the amount factoring in playing assets.

getbennyon wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:49 pm

The club has accumulated a debt of £200 million, eventually, this will have repercussions for us.

ALK don’t particularly care about debt - just raising the ‘value’ of the club so they can (in theory) make money.

Irresponsible custodians for a club of our natural size and state.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:45 pm

I'd say it's far higher but it doesn't paint an accurate reflection because you can reduce the amount factoring in playing assets.

Don’t think anyone knows our debt anymore.

But you’re right, whatever it is, our net debt is effectively the difference between the value of the playing assets and the debt.

AGENT_CLARET wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:40 pm

Impressive in goal ???? He made a few good saves what you'd expect a Keeper to do, the rest of his play wasn't impressive at all

We’ve had loads of goalkeepers in the past who made a few good saves,but overall they’ve been at best average,The Beast saved pens,and made some brilliant saves ,I’ve never known a goalkeeper have so many worldies scored against him ,when the balls heading for the top corner he never seems to get anywhere near it ,looks good for the cameras diving full length,nobodies come up with the answer yet of why did we spend a fortune on a guy who is at best about half as good as Peacock-Farrell?

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:50 pm

Don’t think anyone knows our debt anymore.

But you’re right, whatever it is, our net debt is effectively the difference between the value of the playing assets and the debt.

Not the exact amount to the pound & penny but you can reasonably ballpark a figure which won't be that far off.

Carwin261 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:50 pm

We’ve had loads of goalkeepers in the past who made a few good saves,but overall they’ve been at best average,The Beast saved pens,and made some brilliant saves ,I’ve never known a goalkeeper have so many worldies scored against him ,when the balls heading for the top corner he never seems to get anywhere near it ,looks good for the cameras diving full length,nobodies come up with the answer yet of why did we spend a fortune on a guy who is at best about half as good as Peacock-Farrell?

I would say in his defence, if you look at most of these worldies scored against us this season the player has had so much time and space unchallenged to pick out the top corner no keeper could get near them. Give players of this quality all this time and they'll destroy you..

I said to my son at the start of the season I think we needed an experienced keeper on our books for the tough times, and I think throwing in an inexperienced keeper was a big mistake, but I think he's far from the only person to blame for this terrible start...

The most worrying thing for me is Vincent does not seem to be learning from his mistakes and keeps making the same ones over and over. Two holding players, one of which is Burge does not work in this league. Playing Foster, Amoudi and two attack minded wingers in front of those two is far too open and too soft. We don't have the players to pull off 4 2 3 1. Most of the time it looks like 4 2 4 anyway. He has tried it a number of times and did it again yesterday. We need three in midfield against most teams especially if he is going to play Burge there.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:52 pm

Not the exact amount to the pound & penny but you can reasonably ballpark a figure which won't be that far off.

I think the “new money” in the companies above BFC complicates the true position further.

getbennyon wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:49 pm

The club has accumulated a debt of £200 million, eventually, this will have repercussions for us.

Any idea how financed, at the original takeover there was a bank loan and also a borrowing from bfc re outgoing shareholders, a summary of the present position would be useful, even a guesstimate.

daveisaclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:23 pm

He's got 6 caps for a team that didn't get close to qualifying for the upcoming Euro.

He was good in very limited appearances last season but I fear the people casting him as a saviour for our awful defence are just setting themselves up for another disappoinment.

I think our best 2 central defenders would probably be Ekdal and Beyer if fit. AAD may turn out to be the best of the lot but at the moment his confidence is shot to pieces and he consistently makes big mistakes.

I think you are right that Ekdal won't be our saviour though as the more serious problem for me comes further up the pitch. With the exception of Cullen and to a lesser extent Foster our other midfielders/wide men offered almost no protection to our full backs or centre halves yesterday.

Anonymous Claret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:58 pm

I think our best 2 central defenders would probably be Ekdal and Beyer if fit. AAD may turn out to be the best of the lot but at the moment his confidence is shot to pieces and he consistently makes big mistakes.

I think you are right that Ekdal won't be our saviour though as the more serious problem for me comes further up the pitch. With the exception of Cullen and to a lesser extent Foster our other midfielders/wide men offered almost no protection to our full backs or centre halves yesterday.

Completely agree. The issues lie in front of the defence. Unfortunately it’s the midfield leaving them continually exposed.