I can’t recall many subjects that football fans are so united on. It’s ruining the game.

Can anything be done to stop it?

The problem isn't VAR, it's blatantly the officials.
Get rid of VAR and you'll have exactly what we had before- the same cretins making equally embarrassing decisions in the middle of the pitch, with even less accountability for proofchecking or bias.
Other sports manage much better with the technology because it's the referees that are the problem. PGMOL needs binning, it's failed in its stated purpose, standards have declined since it was established. There needs to be a total rethink of officials training.
I'd also bring back post-match interviews with the referee to increase their accountability for bad decisions. They can't keep hiding behind VAR as if its some magic wand, the referee and VAR staff ought to be interviewed after every game and own any mistakes.

We could get relegated? Maybe that's the plan.

PremierLeagueClass wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:37 pm

I can’t recall many subjects that football fans are so united on. It’s ruining the game.

Can anything be done to stop it?

It's strange to me that nobody seems to like it. Not managers, players, pundits, even referees and most definitely not fans and yet the message keeps on coming that it's here to stay and just needs tweaking. It doesn't, it needs binning and (amongst a number of other things in the modern era) it's totally ruining the game and is turning people off. Refs (and liners) have always made honest mistakes and at times down the years we've been on the wrong end of one or two stinkers, but VAR hasn't made anything better, it's just made it a whole lot worse as the gaffs seem to have actually got bigger! Having a season watching in the Championship absolutely confirmed that for all of us. It was miles better without it.

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:48 pm

It's strange to me that nobody seems to like it. Not managers, players, pundits, even referees and most definitely not fans and yet the message keeps on coming that it's here to stay and just needs tweaking. It doesn't, it needs binning and (amongst a number of other things in the modern era) it's totally ruining the game and is turning people off. Refs (and liners) have always made honest mistakes and at times down the years we've been on the wrong end of one or two stinkers, but VAR hasn't made anything better, it's just made it a whole lot worse as the gaffs seem to have actually got bigger! Having a season watching in the Championship absolutely confirmed that for all of us. It was miles better without it.

I agree with most of that, but there were plenty of people on here who wanted it bringing in when it was first confirmed it was happening.

I'm pleased to say I wasn't one of them.

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:48 pm

It's strange to me that nobody seems to like it. Not managers, players, pundits, even referees and most definitely not fans and yet the message keeps on coming that it's here to stay and just needs tweaking. It doesn't, it needs binning and (amongst a number of other things in the modern era) it's totally ruining the game and is turning people off. Refs (and liners) have always made honest mistakes and at times down the years we've been on the wrong end of one or two stinkers, but VAR hasn't made anything better, it's just made it a whole lot worse as the gaffs seem to have actually got bigger! Having a season watching in the Championship absolutely confirmed that for all of us. It was miles better without it.

Totally agree, I was having this conversation in work today, where in the most they are UTD, City and Liverpool fans, and had to explain you don't have and probably never will have the opportunity to watch the match win its intended form of no VAR and 3 pm kick offs, where as we have seen sides of the coin, and it 1000% a better experience as a fan in the championship. Mistakes absolutely still happen but it is discussed for second and then move on with what is happening in the match, and probably discuss further in the pub afterwards. I get the obvious your only saying that because you can only get a result in the championship but I just explain I would take that type of fan experience all day over whet we see in the Premiership even if we were losing every match in the Championship.

fidelcastro wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:58 pm

I agree with most of that, but there were plenty of people on here who wanted it bringing in when it was first confirmed it was happening.

I'm pleased to say I wasn't one of them.

Tbh I feel I actually might have been one of them, but that was because I saw technology being successfully used in tennis and cricket and already in footy for goal line checks and after witnessing some pretty dire officiating down the years I could be forgiven for thinking it was going to be the answer. Almost instantly I realised that it absolutely was not. It doesn't work, doesn't solve anything and creates more problems than it clears up, largely because it still relies on "human interpretation" and that leads to arguments.

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:04 pm

Tbh I feel I actually might have been one of them, but that was because I saw technology being successfully used in tennis and cricket and already in footy for goal line checks and after witnessing some pretty dire officiating down the years I could be forgiven for thinking it was going to be the answer. Almost instantly I realised that it absolutely was not. It doesn't work, doesn't solve anything and creates more problems than it clears up, largely because it still relies on "human interpretation" and that leads to arguments.

I'm glad you're man enough to hold your hands up!

Someone suggested to me the other week that the compromise scenario with VAR is to keep it, but have it just for offside decisions, as every other decision that VAR is permitted to intervene on is entirely subjective.

This sounded a fair suggestion in theory, but then we had the embarrassing farce in the Liverpool/Spurs game and even to a lesser extent the offside with Jay at Bournemouth.

In a nutshell, it needs binning!

AI

VAR should be robot controlled
Auto decisions

The argument that it works in other sports, I believe, is irrelevant. This is not other sports. This is football.
It's fast, it's unpredictable, it's almost impossible to know what's intentional and what is not. There's an element of 'gamesmanship' not always found in other sports. That's why it's so difficult to know what an intentional handball is. That's why the rules are constantly changing, to try to clarify or improve.
And, that's why VAR is not compatible with football.
All we are getting is forensically studied offsides and the decisions shifted from on pitch (where it belongs) to some faraway committee.
Think about the difference in your understanding of a game when you are actually physically there and when you watch on a TV (monitor)
So, for me, VAR should be used as a request from the referee (which would manifest in maybe once every 5 games) or binned.....
I vote bin!

VAR is absolutely necessary as it should be in Championship.
Many championship matches I have watched teams have scored when a player is well offside.
Difficult for Liner to see as he has to watch the guy in his own half play a 50 yard ball and then look across and see if player is offside.
When he gets them wrong Clubs and Fans ridicule the liner when it is not his fault.
The problem is when it is handball or not handball and a shirt pull or not and there is inconsistency as one VAR man gives it and another doesn’t

The mistakes are magnified purely because the game is no longer being reffed on the field. The standard of reffing will continue to drop unless VAR is revised significantly.

Pundits and commentators are currently praising officials for taking their time over “big” decisions…. They AREN’T taking time to think about what they’ve seen, they are waiting to be told what to do thru their earpieces!!!!

VAR was supposed to be the “leveller”…. The idea is sound, but it’s been an absolute cluster **** due to how it’s been managed and implemented. It needs a complete re-invention, and comprehensive training for those using it.

DAVETHEVICAR wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:45 pm

VAR is absolutely necessary as it should be in Championship.
Many championship matches I have watched teams have scored when a player is well offside.
Difficult for Liner to see as he has to watch the guy in his own half play a 50 yard ball and then look across and see if player is offside.
When he gets them wrong Clubs and Fans ridicule the liner when it is not his fault.
The problem is when it is handball or not handball and a shirt pull or not and there is inconsistency as one VAR man gives it and another doesn’t

They could use VAR for offside but without the silly lines. Just look at a simple photo and see if the man is clearly in front (offside) clearly behind (onside) or you can't really tell (level, onside). Same rules as in the Championship, in fact.

Agree with most of the above and most want to see the back of it! If it takes best part of five minutes to disallow a goal then the officials are trying their damnest to chalk it off. Jay springs to mind and Villa had one over 4 mins at Burnley once. There should be some time limit and if it is that close - on field decision stands. 2mins say. The Trafford one on Saturday could have gone either way, I thought it was red in real time as might the ref so he went with yellow knowing VAR would look. Watching replays yellow may have been right.

Get rid I say

Would it help if we used the simple cricket rule ,if the ref comes up with a decision unless he’s blatantly wrong then the decision stops with the ref.ie if the ref doesn’t think a player has handled the ball on purpose ,and Var shows the player handling the ball unintentionally then it’s a goal .

You need the lines to get it parallel to the goal line and centre line
Otherwise you can’t tell whether he is offside or not
Championship don’t have lines and goals are given when player is 2 yards offside
Not rocket science

You also need the officials to communicate with each other properly.

It also shouldn't take five and a half minutes to sort out.

Get rid!

Is the OP suggesting a ULEZ style operation sabotaging the Sky cameras?

The problem isn't VAR and systems like it. It's the people using it and the rules around it.

I don't think we should be eliminating it out of the game entirely but more making it absolutely clear how it's used.

I think it was brought in too quickly without us all - fans, players, managers, pundits, officials - knowing exactly what it is and how it can improve the game. Because I think it can, improve the game, but it definitely needs refining.

As a former ref we had to be prepared to run diagonal to the play and quick to change direction
We relied on mobile linesmen to patrol each half
The also had to be mobile
Today's refs seem incapable of placing themselves to be able to see the game flowing and make poor decisions
VAR is controlled by refs who were incompetent when officiating and useless with technology
VAR needs binning

VAR must not be binned

VAR in itself isn't the problem for me. It's the way it is being used in the Premier League. The way it was used in the 2018 World Cup gave so much hope. Used appropriately. Didn't seem to impact the flow of the game. I don't know what on earth has happened since then but it has turned into a right mess. Maybe it reflects the standard of refereeing in the PL at the moment. I don't trust the people that are persisting with the PL having their own way of doing things. I don't know what the rationale is for this but it doesn't seem right. If they can't change it I'd get rid. I do think there are better ways of implementing it though.

There's no place for anything that takes away more than it gives.

DAVETHEVICAR wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:21 pm

You need the lines to get it parallel to the goal line and centre line
Otherwise you can’t tell whether he is offside or not
Championship don’t have lines and goals are given when player is 2 yards offside
Not rocket science

If they're 2 yards offside you can tell from a still photo. You don't need lines. The lines are for when it's too close for the human eye to tell, and they're the ones that should be classed as level IMO.

Amazing isn't it, the officials in the Championship last year actually made very few mistakes.

I'm happy to trust their judgement and get on with the game.

Antmass wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:35 pm

The argument that it works in other sports, I believe, is irrelevant. This is not other sports. This is football.
It's fast, it's unpredictable, it's almost impossible to know what's intentional and what is not. There's an element of 'gamesmanship' not always found in other sports. That's why it's so difficult to know what an intentional handball is. That's why the rules are constantly changing, to try to clarify or improve.
And, that's why VAR is not compatible with football.
All we are getting is forensically studied offsides and the decisions shifted from on pitch (where it belongs) to some faraway committee.
Think about the difference in your understanding of a game when you are actually physically there and when you watch on a TV (monitor)
So, for me, VAR should be used as a request from the referee (which would manifest in maybe once every 5 games) or binned.....
I vote bin!

Just to add to this, in other sports it clarifies a situation e.g. was the ball grounded? In football we have laws which would require a jury rather than a camera to resolve (e.g. intent).

What VAR has done is shown that often the laws are the issue as they don't mesh with the modern game. Take handball, if you were to state that any handball is a free kick then you'll have players looking to flick it up towards the hands of players in the box.

What would make a difference is if we had a season where Sky/TNT etc all agreed not to go over the decisions to a forensic degree. It would be interesting to see how the coverage has changed over the years to what is now an epidode of CSI Miami where pundits either know 100% or get to sit of the fence if it's a bit too difficult. Or if they don't know the laws.

However, and here is the sad reveal. Football fans love debating decisions, managers love using them to deflect. Perhaps Arteta could explain the lack of a second yellow for Havertz before moaning about the goal. I'll wait.

Moaning and debating football decisions is what a lot of fans, and largely football, is about. It's baked in to an extent of it being seemingly as important as the actual game. If VAR went tomorrow and we were back to a time of relying on the ref everyone would be fine until a decision went against their team and suddenly they'd want it back.

Rant over so thanks for the therapy...

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:18 pm

Amazing isn't it, the officials in the Championship last year actually made very few mistakes.

I'm happy to trust their judgement and get on with the game.

I can think of a lot of games last season where big mistakes were made, both for and against us, but we just got on with it.

A rather good change of the offside law was suggested to me recently,namely that if ANY part of a forward was on the same plane (line drawn) as a defender then it is onside.The current law where the opposite is true robs us of goals which are superbly created only to be disallowed because of a big toe,armpit,finger,kneecap or a rather large nose.As I understand it the rules can only be changed in March each year when IFAB (International Football Association Board) meet to ratify any law alterations.Also is there any way the VAR official could be other than a serving referee who will be reluctant to make a fellow colleague look ridiculous?

Madpete wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:46 pm

Also is there any way the VAR official could be other than a serving referee who will be reluctant to make a fellow colleague look ridiculous?

They've tried it with Lee Mason and Mike Dean but dispensed with their services although I think Mason is back with PGMOL in some other capacity. I believe any VAR official must have reached the highest level of refereeing in any case before he/she carries out the VAR role.

DAVETHEVICAR wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:21 pm

You need the lines to get it parallel to the goal line and centre line
Otherwise you can’t tell whether he is offside or not
Championship don’t have lines and goals are given when player is 2 yards offside
Not rocket science

We don’t need lines, just a person to put up, or not, their flag. 10-20 seconds later we’re underway again.
You score a goal, quick glance at the linesman, flag down, carry on celebrating.
Not stand around for 4,5,6 or more minutes waiting to see if you wasted your time celebrating.

VAR as killed my love of the game. I don’t watch any tv football anymore. The game on Saturday was the first of any football I’ve watched since the Cardiff game.

The problem Dave is, in England, the VAR are using it to micro manage every single millimetre of the game. That’s not what I want to watch.

Bin it, the sooner the better. VAR killing the beautiful game, aided and abetted by cheating players.

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:18 pm

Amazing isn't it, the officials in the Championship last year actually made very few mistakes.

I'm happy to trust their judgement and get on with the game.

Easy to say when we were winning every game

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:18 pm

Amazing isn't it, the officials in the Championship last year actually made very few mistakes.

I'm happy to trust their judgement and get on with the game.

Sorry but that is just not true. There were some awful decisions in the championship last year both for and against us as well as in games where we were not involved.

The difference is 2 fold, when your team is winning you care less and as you say "get on with it".

Secondly their is nowhere near the level of focus on championship games from the media and as a result less highlighting and scrutinising of any bad decisions.

RammyClaret61 wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:00 pm

We don’t need lines, just a person to put up, or not, their flag. 10-20 seconds later we’re underway again.
You score a goal, quick glance at the linesman, flag down, carry on celebrating.
Not stand around for 4,5,6 or more minutes waiting to see if you wasted your time celebrating.

VAR as killed my love of the game. I don’t watch any tv football anymore. The game on Saturday was the first of any football I’ve watched since the Cardiff game.

The problem Dave is, in England, the VAR are using it to micro manage every single millimetre of the game. That’s not what I want to watch.

Bin it, the sooner the better. VAR killing the beautiful game, aided and abetted by cheating players.

It's killing my love for the game too. And you are right about the players being responsible for the problems.
I called it 'gamesmanship' earlier but it's really cheating, and nowhere is it more stylized than the Prem (in England).

PS...is that the Rammy who watched the clarets in Albufeira with me in the Hot Sun Bar?

It is not perfect but better than just the officals on the pitch making it up as they go along. Whist not a big fan of rugby I feel if they put it on the big screen and broad cast for all to see ands hear thye would not make the same mistakes and could at to the thril of goal no goal . I have not seen any on screan rugby that has taken more than a couple of mins, and that is for complex moves.
There the offical is told to look at or asks to look at incidents, the referee then asks so what am I looking at the TMO then replays and talks through giving the referee time to see his mistake or what hes not seen and can change his decison. We as fans would hear and understand what is happening, and be more accetable of the decisons for or against. Anything that takes more than 2 mins is not a clear and obvious error

Apart from the Liverpool incident the other week, every decision can be justified, people need to shut the fnck up and get on with watching football.

Wish they would get rid of it.

If it was meant to correct clear and obvious errors then it shouldn't be like it is. Need an automated offside system like goal line tech and I think that improves VAR ten fold.

DAVETHEVICAR wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:21 pm

You need the lines to get it parallel to the goal line and centre line
Otherwise you can’t tell whether he is offside or not
Championship don’t have lines and goals are given when player is 2 yards offside
Not rocket science

Please indicate just 1 goal from the championship last season that was scored after a player was 2 yards offside. You won’t be able to because it never happened.

In general linesmen are very good at flagging for offsides. Errors are usually very marginal. Personally I think offside decisions should be left to the onfield officials. If there’s a huge error, then that can be pointed out by the VAR.

chekhov wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:28 pm

Please indicate just 1 goal from the championship last season that was scored after a player was 2 yards offside. You won’t be able to because it never happened.

In general linesmen are very good at flagging for offsides. Errors are usually very marginal. Personally I think offside decisions should be left to the onfield officials. If there’s a huge error, then that can be pointed out by the VAR.

That solves nothing. Unless there is a measurable margin of error the system is flawed. What constitutes a "huge" error? Just like what is the definition of "clear and obvious"?

Just watching MNF should convince everyone to ditch it.

Simple.

Make it AI and automated.

When not automatic increase the margin of error to just catch the complete howlers. Otherwise stay with the on field decision.

Add a 2 min timer for decisions... Give coaches one challenge each.

It works in other sports because the on field ref/umpires retain the deciding factor with a margin of error.

they shouldn't be looking at anything until it is referred. Something like with Cricket where you have a review system in place, abuse it you lose it.

Clockwork Claret wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:29 pm

Simple.

Make it AI and automated.

When not automatic increase the margin of error to just catch the complete howlers. Otherwise stay with the on field decision.

Add a 2 min timer for decisions... Give coaches one challenge each.

It works in other sports because the on field ref/umpires retain the deciding factor with a margin of error.

I like both of these ideas. On field decisions stand unless a manager refers them, which must be done quickly, then a 2 min limit on the decision.

I also want real time replays. If you can’t see it in real-time it’s not clear and obvious.

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:18 pm

Amazing isn't it, the officials in the Championship last year actually made very few mistakes.

I'm happy to trust their judgement and get on with the game.

We should have conceded a penalty in the dying stages at Ewood last season.

If we'd had VAR we would have done.

I'll bet you've conveniently forgotten that!

I remember when it was first introduced i wanted it only for goal line checking now it's gone ridiculous a finger nail offside.

Support this guy. Spot on in this video on the other thread.

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=72800

Nothing wrong with goal line tech, or even retrospective video assessment for serious foul play but let the on field officials get on with it for offside etc and ONLY overrule for serious errors of judgement.

It’s not the system its how its being used.

Take last night, change the approach to the below and it is a quick, smooth process.

Red card - such a “follow through red” after winning the ball is subjective in the extreme, so that should be down to the on field ref alone, not viewing it with multiple slo mo camera angles which make it look like attempted murder.

The arm across the face from James not given as a red but paused the game - same.

The offsides - anything seeming level to the naked eye at a quick 10 second check should be on, IF the lino has left it. No need for lines. All those 4-5 disallowed goals would probably have been quickly ruled out anyway on that basis because they were all clearly off.

Something off the ball that is violent conduct is something that can and should be checked while the game continues then dealt with at the next dead ball. If that isn’t the law change the law. For that matter treat players while the game continues.

We/governing bodies etc need to stop listening to people called Gary.

Makes you wonder how football coped for over a century without VAR..

CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 07, 2023 8:14 am

It’s not the system its how its being used.

If the system can be used in such a detrimental way then the system in and of itself is a problem.

Engineering 101

Postecoglu the Spurs manager summed VAR up perfectly.
"That utopia where there are no wrong decisions in the game will never exist. It's our own fault as we complain about decisions every week."