• Sue or not to sue

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:50 pm**

That is the question

Burnley, Leeds and Leicester plan to SUE Everton for £300MILLION after Toffees were found guilty of breaking Premier League spending rules. Burnley, Leeds and Leicester have confirmed their intention to sue Everton for a total of £300million after the club were found guilty of breaching financial fair play rules.4 hours ago

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:53 pm**

Sue, Sue, Sue ..

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:54 pm**

Not sure that suing them would make us any money
Everton will drag it on as long as possible and the fees for bringing the law suit would probably take all the compensation if we win
I say no

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:55 pm**

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:56 pm**

Peggy, Peggy Sue…

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:58 pm**

Can only imagine Pace and co will be frothing at the mouth with the chance to make some money back from a lawsuit.

If there’s one things the Yanks love (especially those that have worked on Wall St), it’s a good olde lawsuit.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:59 pm**

Bob Lorder wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:53 pm
Sue, Sue, Sue ..

Peggy, Peggy, Peggy
With acknowledgment to the late great Buddy Holly.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:13 pm**

Take a good lawyer to prove the extra money spent made Everton better.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:17 pm**

Su,Su,Suicide Squad, just saying like

.....now all in there 40s 50s n 60s age wise, anyway i agree to Sue, due to them getting Tarks, n Mc Neil, after we went down, cheating scoucers gits.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:18 pm**

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:13 pm
Take a good lawyer to prove the extra money spent made Everton better.

I don’t think it would .. the money was extra .. it improved the team which gave them a bigger chance of survival.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:22 pm**

California Colner wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:54 pm
Not sure that suing them would make us any money
Everton will drag it on as long as possible and the fees for bringing the law suit would probably take all the compensation if we win
I say no

If successful surely you claim all the legal expenses back from the offending party.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:26 pm**

Could be seen by others as just sour grapes

Is it worth the publicity

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:26 pm**

CoolClaret wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:58 pm
Can only imagine Pace and co will be frothing at the mouth with the chance to make some money back from a lawsuit.

If there’s one things the Yanks love (especially those that have worked on Wall St), it’s a good olde lawsuit.

From someone who has spent a lot of time on corporate lawsuits in PE-backed companies I can imagine you’re right. It’ll add a new dynamic to things for sure.

There’s potentially half their purchase price on offer from a successful lawsuit, and they’ll use BFC funds to fund it, but it will neither go to court, or pay out, quickly (Everton will not have £50-£100m cash to give us now so any award will be paid in instalments with interest added).

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:28 pm**

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:13 pm
Take a good lawyer to prove the extra money spent made Everton better.

Hard to prove it made them better than THEY were.... considerably easier to prove it made them better than us....

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:31 pm**

CoolClaret wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:58 pm
Can only imagine Pace and co will be frothing at the mouth with the chance to make some money back from a lawsuit.

If there’s one things the Yanks love (especially those that have worked on Wall St), it’s a good olde lawsuit.

this right here

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:33 pm**

Carlos the Great wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:18 pm
I don’t think it would .. the money was extra .. it improved the team which gave them a bigger chance of survival.

They were getting into Europe regular before spending all that money and becoming crap.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:38 pm**

Lip wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:50 pm
Sue or not to sue
That is the question

I think it's best to let them off

.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:44 pm**

My thoughts/questions since this appears to be the suing thread:

- The charges relate to the year we were relegated (despite the DM article saying they don’t). We’re therefore the lead club in terms of case, I’d imagine.

- I’m not sure if it’s been proved that Everton also broke financial regulations the following year. If that has not been proven then I can’t see how Leicester really have a case.

- Leeds went down second bottom so I can’t see how they have a case in any scenario.

- We, I think, have a pretty good case. We can easily prove loss. Loss of tv funds is open and shut at £50m or so. Then we’d have to prove other losses of commercial income and on player sales. They’ll be a bit harder but easily push any claim in to the £50-£100m region.

- Actually our very poor start to this season reinforces the impact of our relegation (I.e. losing all your experienced players and squad turnover in general makes it harder to compete at this level.

- Think we’ll have to see out their appeal first, so nothing imminent.

- I imagine this will complicate their takeover. That might work in our favour - ie they may want to settle just to get it finalised, but I doubt it. But also potentially lead them to admin and I’m not sure what happens then. A further points deduction for sure.

- if they went in to admin and were bought out of it, I assume any buyer would still be liable for their legal action?

Any lawyers on UTC?

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:48 pm**

Lip wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:50 pm
That is the question

Burnley, Leeds and Leicester plan to SUE Everton for £300MILLION after Toffees were found guilty of breaking Premier League spending rules. Burnley, Leeds and Leicester have confirmed their intention to sue Everton for a total of £300million after the club were found guilty of breaching financial fair play rules.4 hours ago

End of the Everton sale this for me

Send em into administration

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:02 pm**

jojomk1 wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:26 pm
Could be seen by others as just sour grapes

Is it worth the publicity

Effectively you could be talking millions if sound legal advice says it's worth pursuing, publicity will rank low on the list of concerns if that's the case.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:02 pm**

[quote=NewClaret post_id=2220527 time=1700246673

- We, I think, have a pretty good case. We can easily prove loss. Loss of tv funds is open and shut at £50m or so. Then we’d have to prove other losses of commercial income and on player sales. They’ll be a bit harder but easily push any claim in to the £50-£100m region[/quote]

What if we lost money in the Premier league but made a profit in the championship, after player sales and reducing the wage bill etc..

How do we prove it cost us money going down?

As you say, wait for a lawyer to work out.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:03 pm**

" Sour grapes " made me think of the banana splits

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:10 pm**

understand that only a 4 point deduction in the season they benefited from the irregularities (2021/22) would have seen them relegated instead of us.

Sue them, sue them for it all

also a precedent set for compo following a relegation - in today's money would be much more too

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... rlos-tevez

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:19 pm**

It would be nice to sue Everton. It won't be effective

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:22 pm**

I'd settle for six points instead.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:22 pm**

I’d sue the **** out of them if they have been found to have cheated in the season we finished 3rd bottom.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:22 pm**

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:02 pm
[quote=NewClaret post_id=2220527 time=1700246673

- We, I think, have a pretty good case. We can easily prove loss. Loss of tv funds is open and shut at £50m or so. Then we’d have to prove other losses of commercial income and on player sales. They’ll be a bit harder but easily push any claim in to the £50-£100m region

What if we lost money in the Premier league but made a profit in the championship, after player sales and reducing the wage bill etc..

How do we prove it cost us money going down?

As you say, wait for a lawyer to work out.
[/quote]

We will sue for lost income (vs profit) and any other losses incurred as a result. You can’t base such a claim on profit because we will argue we necessarily reduced our costs to account for the lost income we are claiming for.

So the claim will be huge.

I think the income element will be easily provable, the rest less so.

What I’m not sure is what grounds we have to sue everton. They broke PL rules (not laws), have been punished in accordance with PL rules (albeit in an untimely way) and have been punished in accordance with them. A punishment which, incidentally, may benefit us this year.

If that process was followed properly I’m not sure how we sue?

Everton may well have a case, if they go down & we stayed up, that there’s no loss bar maybe interest on the income because it’s all evened itself out in the course of time.

It’s an absolute mess. If we sued and were successful I dread to think what would happen when City’s charges are found because they’d have several years of relegated clubs lining up to sue them.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:24 pm**

NewClaret wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:44 pm
My thoughts/questions since this appears to be the suing thread:

- The charges relate to the year we were relegated (despite the DM article saying they don’t). We’re therefore the lead club in terms of case, I’d imagine.

- I’m not sure if it’s been proved that Everton also broke financial regulations the following year. If that has not been proven then I can’t see how Leicester really have a case.

- Leeds went down second bottom so I can’t see how they have a case in any scenario.

- We, I think, have a pretty good case. We can easily prove loss. Loss of tv funds is open and shut at £50m or so. Then we’d have to prove other losses of commercial income and on player sales. They’ll be a bit harder but easily push any claim in to the £50-£100m region.

- Actually our very poor start to this season reinforces the impact of our relegation (I.e. losing all your experienced players and squad turnover in general makes it harder to compete at this level.

- Think we’ll have to see out their appeal first, so nothing imminent.

- I imagine this will complicate their takeover. That might work in our favour - ie they may want to settle just to get it finalised, but I doubt it. But also potentially lead them to admin and I’m not sure what happens then. A further points deduction for sure.

- if they went in to admin and were bought out of it, I assume any buyer would still be liable for their legal action?

Any lawyers on UTC?

We should never take for granted the value of Chester Perry to this messageboard.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:28 pm**

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:13 pm
Take a good lawyer to prove the extra money spent made Everton better.

Would we have to prove that or just that they cheated the year we were the 3rd relegated teams? Presumably they’ve been docked points because it’s deemed they gave themselves an advantage that was against the rules of the league?

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:35 pm**

Elizabeth wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:19 pm
It would be nice to sue Everton. It won't be effective

Really ??.......A positive outcome would currently be the most likely scenario.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:36 pm**

agreenwood wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:28 pm
Would we have to prove that or just that they cheated the year we were the 3rd relegated teams? Presumably they’ve been docked points because it’s deemed they gave themselves an advantage that was against the rules of the league?

I'm only guessing like the rest on here, but charges are based on 3 year rolling periods for FFP.

Not on yearly basis.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:37 pm**

They’ve been found guilty of breaking the rules

That has cost us a fair chunk of monies from various revenue streams

They should be sued

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:38 pm**

Royboyclaret wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:24 pm
We should never take for granted the value of Chester Perry to this messageboard.

Is CP a lawyer?

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:42 pm**

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:37 pm
They’ve been found guilty of breaking the rules

That has cost us a fair chunk of monies from various revenue streams

They should be sued

At this moment in time an out-of-court settlement would be in Everton's best interests.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:42 pm**

I don't see why we wouldn't. We've been damaged by a club who have been found to have broken the rules.

An added incentive is that a complicated lawsuit could derail their takeover and it has been reported than no takeover could mean they have to sell players in January.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:45 pm**

Kilson810 wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:42 pm
I don't see why we wouldn't. We've been damaged by a club who have been found to have broken the rules.

An added incentive is that a complicated lawsuit could derail their takeover and it has been reported than no takeover could mean they have to sell players in January.

That’s a fair point. Certainly in our interests to talk tough so that they don’t have money to spend in January.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:00 pm**

Kilson810 wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:42 pm
I don't see why we wouldn't. We've been damaged by a club who have been found to have broken the rules.

An added incentive is that a complicated lawsuit could derail their takeover and it has been reported than no takeover could mean they have to sell players in January.

^^^^This

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:11 pm**

Can't say I like this sort of thing.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:14 pm**

boatshed bill wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:11 pm
Can't say I like this sort of thing.

No it's not pretty, but Everton have been happy to throw other teams under the bus to save their own skin.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:24 pm**

Kilson810 wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:14 pm
No it's not pretty, but Everton have been happy to throw other teams under the bus to save their own skin.

Pretty much my thoughts.

But the road to receive and compensation will be long & tough so best to keep our business strictly private and professional.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:33 pm**

I lost my Sue

six months ago! Definitely Sue for me!!!

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:15 pm**

To answer a few of the questions above:-

1. Yes, we can issue a claim.
2. As pointed out above, some of the facts would now be more difficult to prove given that Everton have been found guilty of a ffp breach in the year that we finished 18th, but that is not the same as their being convicted of a criminal offence and then being sued by the victim for their loss.
Assuming that we are looking at a standard high court action, the high court would not be bound to follow a decision made by the Premier league. As such, it would not be a slam dunk that the benefits of Everton cheating caused them to end up with more points than us. That said, the breach was not insubstantial and I imagine that on the balance of probability, it would have been worth a few points to Everton.
3. Whilst liability might be easy enough to prove, quantum would be far from it. As pointed out above, loss of tv revenue, less one season's parachute payments is a goo start, but after that, you start hitting issues with proximity, causation, rules against certain types of consequential losses etc.
4. The situation is probably similar to the sheff. Utd v West ham claim resulting from West ham fielding an Argentinian player that was technically ineligible even though that wasn't known by others until after the event. Damages in that instant were settled, as I understand it, so we still don't know what would have been found if it had ended with judgment after a contest.
5. The Leeds thing is possible. I haven't looked at their circs closely as I don't really care, but let us say that Everton took 4 points off Leeds and only 1 off Leicester. It would then be arguable that if Everton's results were expunged, and Leeds ended up only 1, or 2 points above Leicester, that they would be the side that were inequitably relegated.
6. We can't claim as supporters for lots of reasons, one of which is that ir is probable after last year that we didn't suffer loss, given that last year was a lot more fun than another term fighting relegation, losing to arsenal by var and with some of our squad close to claiming their pensions.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:36 pm**

NewClaret wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:24 pm
Pretty much my thoughts.

But the road to receive and compensation will be long & tough so best to keep our business strictly private and professional.

Correct, although just enough in the news to scupper any potential takeover at Everton would be nice

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:52 pm**

timshorts wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:15 pm
To answer a few of the questions above:-

1. Yes, we can issue a claim.
2. As pointed out above, some of the facts would now be more difficult to prove given that Everton have been found guilty of a ffp breach in the year that we finished 18th, but that is not the same as their being convicted of a criminal offence and then being sued by the victim for their loss.
Assuming that we are looking at a standard high court action, the high court would not be bound to follow a decision made by the Premier league. As such, it would not be a slam dunk that the benefits of Everton cheating caused them to end up with more points than us. That said, the breach was not insubstantial and I imagine that on the balance of probability, it would have been worth a few points to Everton.
3. Whilst liability might be easy enough to prove, quantum would be far from it. As pointed out above, loss of tv revenue, less one season's parachute payments is a goo start, but after that, you start hitting issues with proximity, causation, rules against certain types of consequential losses etc.
4. The situation is probably similar to the sheff. Utd v West ham claim resulting from West ham fielding an Argentinian player that was technically ineligible even though that wasn't known by others until after the event. Damages in that instant were settled, as I understand it, so we still don't know what would have been found if it had ended with judgment after a contest.
5. The Leeds thing is possible. I haven't looked at their circs closely as I don't really care, but let us say that Everton took 4 points off Leeds and only 1 off Leicester. It would then be arguable that if Everton's results were expunged, and Leeds ended up only 1, or 2 points above Leicester, that they would be the side that were inequitably relegated.
6. We can't claim as supporters for lots of reasons, one of which is that ir is probable after last year that we didn't suffer loss, given that last year was a lot more fun than another term fighting relegation, losing to arsenal by var and with some of our squad close to claiming their pensions.

All very good and valid points. Let's couple that with the fact Everton are a club who are still not out of the woods financially. They are in reality a business, who could be facing several serious High Court actions that could result in massive liabilities, and a business like that is unlikely to secure a takeover at this time.

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:13 pm**

It is actually worth reading what was said in reference to the club's claim against Everton

https://resources.premierleague.com/pre ... Ruling.pdf

It is also worth noting that the club through they Solicitors have appointed the most noted of all barristers in UK Sports law - Nick de Marco

It is also worth noting that under the Premier Leagues rules - the ones referred to in the link above that the commission who made the judgement against Everton will be the ones who will determine the level of compensation due as outlined in the Premier League Handbook Disciplinary and Dispute Resolution Section W: Disciplinary

https://resources.premierleague.com/pre ... .08.23.pdf

which should avoid the High Court actions people have been suggesting

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:47 pm**

Royboyclaret wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:42 pm
At this moment in time an out-of-court settlement would be in Everton's best interests.

not sure they have the money

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:48 pm**

Chester Perry wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:13 pm
It is actually worth reading what was said in reference to the club's claim against Everton

https://resources.premierleague.com/pre ... Ruling.pdf

It is also worth noting that the club through they Solicitors have appointed the most noted of all barristers in UK Sports law - Nick de Marco

It is also worth noting that under the Premier Leagues rules - the ones referred to in the link above that the commission who made the judgement against Everton will be the ones who will determine the level of compensation due as outlined in the Premier League Handbook Disciplinary and Dispute Resolution Section W: Disciplinary

https://resources.premierleague.com/pre ... .08.23.pdf

which should avoid the High Court actions people have been suggesting

Interesting, CP.

A good barrister is crucial, so good that we’ve got one.

I take your point re the commissions powers to determine compensation but presumably that gets appealed and then in to some court system or other?

Posted: **Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:58 pm**

NewClaret wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:48 pm
Interesting, CP.

A good barrister is crucial, so good that we’ve got one.

I take your point re the commissions powers to determine compensation but presumably that gets appealed and then in to some court system or other?

One of the key Premier League rules is you cannot take recourse in another jurisdiction - be it court or CAS.

I note that Manchester City have been fighting the Premier League in a number of different cases in the British courts but not on the charges but on various technical issues around the charges we are led to believe that when it comes to Premier League rules, there has been no forced change resulting from a judicial decision so it would appear that these rules re external recourse will hold fast

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:04 am**

Personally i think they will appeal and get the points deduction to say 7 or 8 but still found guilty and then the clubs mentioned will get compensation but if Everton don't pay up then they should enter administration and hopefully get relegated even though at the outset they agreed they over spent . At least it's sent out a message to other clubs.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:05 am**

boatshed bill wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:11 pm
Can't say I like this sort of thing.

Ditto

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