My thoughts are that he is not learning or is a very stubborn manager.

Every week I look at rotation of players in either the starting 11 or the substitutes bench and feel something just isn’t right behind the scenes.

Admittedly we appear to have stumbled across a settled ish starting 11. However, players such as Cullen, Aldakhil, zaroury etc seem to simply vanish for weeks before gradually making there way back to the bench. Only to remain as unused substitutes.

We continue to play round pegs in square holes rather than obvious left winger for left winger. I mean we do have enough of them. How many games did it take to put CT at left back and stop playing 3 other players out of position.

Some players just do not seem to be given a chance eg Redmond. I thought he looked very threatening in the short time he was on against Sheff Utd.

In my opinion it is our manager that needs to learn and give the players a fair crack of the whip in their correct positions.

Cullen is injured, Al Dakhil played like 10 games and was miles off it. Redmond has been injured virtually all season.

If we don’t get a CF in jan then no

Zenwisdom wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:29 am

If we don’t get a CF in jan then no

Add two full backs, CB, CM to that

Far too stubborn. Sticking with this passing out system when we haven’t got the quality of player to do it in the PL. The only chances created by it are for the opposition. I feel for our defence who on the whole have been very good.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:17 am

Cullen is injured, Al Dakhil played like 10 games and was miles off it. Redmond has been injured virtually all season.

Townsend would have been a better option than redmond he seems to be doing a lot better he got an assist last night, over the course I reckon if you compared them both at the end townsend will have contributed more.

Persevere with players who have relegated us before is likely to have the same end result.

Of course he is. The team and performances that we have seen over the last few weeks are a vast improvement on some of the unrestrained chaos we watched at the beginning of the season, and it is not unreasonable to hope the improvements continue.

Whether that trajectory is sufficient to keep us up is up for debate, and if we do survive it’ll be by the skin of our teeth, but the signs of improvement are there.

Last night was hugely frustrating, not least because points were there for the taking and the manner of the goal, but I really don’t think it deserves the opprobrium that’s been seen since full time.

Persevere with players who have relegated us before is likely to have the same end result.

Have you not realised that we have completely changed the system and produced better performances in the last 4 games?

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:39 am

Townsend would have been a better option than redmond he seems to be doing a lot better he got an assist last night, over the course I reckon if you compared them both at the end townsend will have contributed more.

More than likely.
Redmond has to play to contribute.

TopCat wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:22 am

More than likely.
Redmond has to play to contribute.

Well despite that he's got a headstart on him it wasn't until after we played them he featured & I don't think he starts every game for them & if he does doesn't complete the 90.

Jakubclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:39 am

Townsend would have been a better option than redmond he seems to be doing a lot better he got an assist last night, over the course I reckon if you compared them both at the end townsend will have contributed more.

Also was shocking for a goal

I wonder if it might turn out that last season was the exception to the rule in terms of VK's managerial career ? Pulled up no trees in his time at Anderlecht and is clearly struggling this season.

randomclaret2 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:20 am

I wonder if it might turn out that last season was the exception to the rule in terms of VK's managerial career ? Pulled up no trees in his time at Anderlecht and is clearly struggling this season.

Sadly, it’s looking that way.

We threw a lot of money at the league last year (in comparison to other sides) and it worked.

randomclaret2 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:20 am

I wonder if it might turn out that last season was the exception to the rule in terms of VK's managerial career ? Pulled up no trees in his time at Anderlecht and is clearly struggling this season.

The biggest drop in points from one season to the next is when Norwich got promoted on 97 points in 20/21 season (4 less than us) under Daniel Farke.
The next season they got relegated on 22 points.

randomclaret2 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:20 am

I wonder if it might turn out that last season was the exception to the rule in terms of VK's managerial career ? Pulled up no trees in his time at Anderlecht and is clearly struggling this season.

Well, fwiw i reckon if he keeps us up this season, given our current position, he might have something about him.

StayingDown4Ever wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:38 am

Sadly, it’s looking that way.

We threw a lot of money at the league last year (in comparison to other sides) and it worked.

Good news is those same players remain in our squad and we’ve since bought better. I’m not sure how many of those will stay (koleosho and Amdouni, in particular), but we should have the core squad available to us with the experience and talent to compete to win the Championship again.

I wasn’t so confident in squad strength to compete in the Championship last time we got relegated.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:43 am

Good news is those same players remain in our squad and we’ve since bought better. I’m not sure how many of those will stay (koleosho and Amdouni, in particular), but we should have the core squad available to us with the experience and talent to compete to win the Championship again.

I wasn’t so confident in squad strength to compete in the Championship last time we got relegated.

Could maybe line up like this in the championship:

Trafford
Roberts, O’Shea, Beyer, New
Cullen, Brownhill
Benson, Ramsey, Zaroury
Obafemi

That should be able to get promoted next year

He’s definitely learning. Performance has improved, we look more assured in defence (can’t really do much about individual lapses) but we really lack a goalscoring threat. I genuinely think if we had a 10+ goal scoring striker we would be doing a lot better than we currently are.

Game management was pretty concerning yesterday, it didn't seem to be the management team were reading the game very well. At all.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:57 am

Could maybe line up like this in the championship:

Trafford
Roberts, O’Shea, Beyer, New
Cullen, Brownhill
Benson, Ramsey, Zaroury
Obafemi

That should be able to get promoted next year

Agree

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:57 am

Could maybe line up like this in the championship:

Trafford
Roberts, O’Shea, Beyer, New
Cullen, Brownhill
Benson, Ramsey, Zaroury
Obafemi

That should be able to get promoted next year

Five lightweight midgets across midfield - it might have worked two years ago but not sure now given injuries and form of Benson and Zaroury
Add that Brownhill is likely to be gone this summer given his contract situation - even if we take up the option of the additional year it would make sense to let him go for a fee to get some additional funding rather than on a free
No room for Odobert or Tresor ? - why did VK spend over £20m on them (or will if we have committed to the Tresor signing this summer)
I presume you are also thinking Berge is gone as he should definitely start before Cullen if still with us

Minimum additional requirements for this summer even in the Championship - RB, 2xLB, CM if Brownhill goes and 2x Striker - maybe even a couple of new wingers

Then we might have a chance of a quick return

Papabendi wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:12 pm

Game management was pretty concerning yesterday, it didn't seem to be the management team were reading the game very well. At all.

Worst thing for me was when I realised Trafford could’ve picked the ball up.

It’s like it’s illegal for him to use his hands in those situations. We’re 5-10 minutes to half time. Just see it out and regroup at HT.

Not blaming him. I actually think he’s getting better and better. There were two other mistakes afterwards by O’Shea and Berge that caused the problem, just it could all have been avoided by collecting the ball.

So bloody depressing.

Foshiznik wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:03 pm

He’s definitely learning. Performance has improved, we look more assured in defence (can’t really do much about individual lapses) but we really lack a goalscoring threat. I genuinely think if we had a 10+ goal scoring striker we would be doing a lot better than we currently are.

Foster was on track for 15+. You take that out of any newly promoted side and they will struggle. Imagine us under Dyche without Wood’s 10+ every year.

Foshiznik wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:03 pm

He’s definitely learning. Performance has improved, we look more assured in defence (can’t really do much about individual lapses) but we really lack a goalscoring threat. I genuinely think if we had a 10+ goal scoring striker we would be doing a lot better than we currently are.

There’s definitely something to be said for the argument that we are not creating enough, or scoring the chances we do get, from open play.

Yes the defence conceded a sloppy one but I don’t think we were a good attacking force last night either. Those players need to look at themselves too.

jojomk1 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:16 pm

Five lightweight midgets across midfield - it might have worked two years ago but not sure now given injuries and form of Benson and Zaroury
Add that Brownhill is likely to be gone this summer given his contract situation - even if we take up the option of the additional year it would make sense to let him go for a fee to get some additional funding rather than on a free
No room for Odobert or Tresor ? - why did VK spend over £20m on them (or will if we have committed to the Tresor signing this summer)
I presume you are also thinking Berge is gone as he should definitely start before Cullen if still with us

Minimum additional requirements for this summer even in the Championship - RB, 2xLB, CM if Brownhill goes and 2x Striker - maybe even a couple of new wingers

Then we might have a chance of a quick return

Pretty certain all of the following won’t be here if we get relegated:

Foster, Tresor, Berge, Amdouni, Odobert and Koleosho

All likely go to Europe either on loan or permanent deals

Spijed wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:38 am

The biggest drop in points from one season to the next is when Norwich got promoted on 97 points in 20/21 season (4 less than us) under Daniel Farke.
The next season they got relegated on 22 points.

Think this will be very similar to us. I think we could end up around the 20 point mark.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 pm

Foster was on track for 15+. You take that out of any newly promoted side and they will struggle. Imagine us under Dyche without Wood’s 10+ every year.

Foster aside, it was a monumental risk not have another striker on the books that could get a few goals this season. Why VK or anyone else thought one good striker would be enough is crazy.

But that's the situation we've ended up with.

Spijed wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:36 pm

Foster aside, it was a monumental risk not have another striker on the books that could get a few goals this season. Why VK or anyone else thought one good striker would be enough is crazy.

But that's the situation we've ended up with.

Disagree here because we only play one up front and have 3 strikers. Why Obafemi wasn’t on the bench last night is a harder one for me to understand though.

StayingDown4Ever wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:38 am

Sadly, it’s looking that way.

We threw a lot of money at the league last year (in comparison to other sides) and it worked.

It’s not sadly for you. You’re loving it.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:57 am

Could maybe line up like this in the championship:

Trafford
Roberts, O’Shea, Beyer, New
Cullen, Brownhill
Benson, Ramsey, Zaroury
Obafemi

That should be able to get promoted next year

If that was the side we field in the Championship (obviously assuming we go down this year) then it's pretty much the side that got us promoted.

Most of them not considered good enough this year so you'd have to assume he'd spend another fortune and spin the wheel again.

If that turns out to be the case, you'd have to deduct that he's learned nothing.

How to get beat in different ways

Not judging by the flak he gets on here after every match for showing a lack of tactical nous and dreadful decisions over which players to substitute and when.

We need to make every game a battle like Sheffield United where we played well. Passively playing around the back and giving the opposition goals isn’t going to get us many points.

gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:39 pm

It’s not sadly for you. You’re loving it.

It’s hurting me as much as anyone else.

He may be learning something but not quickly enough. He is like a lad who has been given a fiver to spend on pick and mix sweets and can’t decide on what sweets to put in his bag.
He has got a large squad of meh type players and neglected the spine of the team. He will get plenty of time to reflect on his mistakes during the summer when he will be preparing for another campaign in the Championship.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:17 pm

Worst thing for me was when I realised Trafford could’ve picked the ball up.

It’s like it’s illegal for him to use his hands in those situations. We’re 5-10 minutes to half time. Just see it out and regroup at HT.

Not blaming him. I actually think he’s getting better and better. There were two other mistakes afterwards by O’Shea and Berge that caused the problem, just it could all have been avoided by collecting the ball.

So bloody depressing.

Only spotted that myself on replays at half time. Just why are we overcoaching everyone to be obsessive purists about this?

I'm not having the lack of strikers being fine given our tactics/formation either. We don't have 3. Jay's past it, mediocre link play vs West Ham and one well taken goal and good holdup against a Championship side that's weaker than last year doesn't make him remotely equipped to be a PL striker anymore and I hate to keep on at him because he's Burnley through and through but it's cruel to keep pretending he's still a PL striker. Jury's way out on Obafemi in part due to not getting a kick, would be in over Jay if fit for me just to give us a pace outlet.
But either way, when fully fit, we have 3 designated strikers of whom 1 we know is good enough, 1 we know isn't anymore, and 1 we don't know.
However what concerns me more on that front is - look at almost all the big sides, big strikers are coming back in vogue- Haaland, Hojlund (struggling in the league but doing it in the CL), Nunez, Kane's been going a while as has Lewandowski but Lewa is perhaps the least Barcelona style striker ever, Inter reached the Champions League final with an aging Edin Dzeko. Arsenal might not have a big centre forward as such but are very set-piece oriented now.

So many teams have pivoted to small, ball playing defenders, and the top teams are adapting again by going for big strong bullies as strikers who are still mobile & good technique. We're modelling ourselves on the Man City of 4 years ago, but on a much much lower budget, the result is a technical but easily bullied side. It's no good trying to follow whatever the trend playstyle is especially if we don't have the budget to instantly set it up and doubly so when that style will take time to bed in naturally. Wolves are an effective team because they have multiple ways to win, and they will settle for any. Likewise Brentford who can mix play and pragmatism, Brighton if they need to, Palace, Everton showing signs of it. We're wedding ourselves to a single style that's slow to implement, even slower to implement if you're not flush with cash, and is already being out-competed because we're late adopting the trend while other teams are already moving on to find ways to counter it after City's run of dominance.

I wouldn't say Kompany's not learning but I do think he's too much of a purist, and that either combines with, or is causing, his hesitant & perplexing subs, which mean we're not managing games or effectively changing gameplans if things aren't going our way.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:39 pm

Why Obafemi wasn’t on the bench last night is a harder one for me to understand though.

Never started a match in the Championship, never mind PL - his only starts were in cup matches with weakened line ups

I was also surprised he was not on the bench

Maybe another injury or maybe VK just does not fancy him - stats would suggest the second theory

Think it's kinda funny that the best we've looked is playing more of a 4-4-2 / 4-2-2-2 - going more direct etc.

Interesting how perceptions/pr/media shape opionons isn't it...

Beating someone we didn't play last season would be a big step forward.

Tricky Trevor wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:33 am

Far too stubborn. Sticking with this passing out system when we haven’t got the quality of player to do it in the PL. The only chances created by it are for the opposition. I feel for our defence who on the whole have been very good.

Agree he's too stubborn.
I've put our results down to a lack of ********, but it could as easily be lack of nous.
The late goals we keep conceding each half, coincide with us slowing the game down trying to run the clock down. We move the ball slower, the players move slower 'mentally ', we set ourselves up to be picked off.
Last season, and this, we played all our best football when we played with pace. This idea of slowing the game down is all wrong.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter which of the theories you pick for our short comings, the bottom line is VK has done nothing to address it.

RicardoMontalban wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:47 am

Of course he is. The team and performances that we have seen over the last few weeks are a vast improvement on some of the unrestrained chaos we watched at the beginning of the season, and it is not unreasonable to hope the improvements continue.

Whether that trajectory is sufficient to keep us up is up for debate, and if we do survive it’ll be by the skin of our teeth, but the signs of improvement are there.

Last night was hugely frustrating, not least because points were there for the taking and the manner of the goal, but I really don’t think it deserves the opprobrium that’s been seen since full time.

I do.

We were OK at best and missed a virtual sitter before they scored and slow, weak, ponderous and almost entirely unthreatening afterwards. I see no reason whatsoever to give anyone a pass on that one; neither the players who looked so utterly laboured nor the bench who stood there and watched the game drift.

ElectroClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:43 am

Well, fwiw i reckon if he keeps us up this season, given our current position, he might have something about him.

Totally agree

Enola Gay wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:16 pm

I do.

We were OK at best and missed a virtual sitter before they scored and slow, weak, ponderous and almost entirely unthreatening afterwards. I see no reason whatsoever to give anyone a pass on that one; neither the players who looked so utterly laboured nor the bench who stood there and watched the game drift.

Who said anything about giving a pass? I just think some of the reaction has been over the top. You don’t? That’s fair enough too.

I think our biggest single problem is that we have far too many players who want the ball into feet, and are used to playing in leagues where they can do that without needing to be constantly on the move. Tresor, Amdouni and to a lesser extent Larssen all want that sort of ball and just aren't dynamic enough to create space. Amdouni and Rodriguez isn't really a partnership- Jay is a decent focal point these days but he's not going to run in behind, and nor does Amdouni, and nor is Amdouni dropping in as a genuine 10 - so Amdouni is essentially replicating Jay's positioning without the physical presence. Even on Saturday, for 20 minutes in the second half Amdouni was too easily marked and didn't do enough to help the team break Sheff U down.

Last night this was exacerbated by the fact for 60 minutes Larssen and JBG were the wingers who equally lack threat in behind. As a result we had 4 players sat just in front of the Wolves defence and no third man runs. It obviously needed sorting and yet the only change was Tresor who has exactly the same issue. It made no sense to me.

So, in short, let me think, has VK learnt anything?

Grow up! He knew and contunues to learn far more than 99% of people on here.

claretspice wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:49 pm

I think our biggest single problem is that we have far too many players who want the ball into feet, and are used to playing in leagues where they can do that without needing to be constantly on the move. Tresor, Amdouni and to a lesser extent Larssen all want that sort of ball and just aren't dynamic enough to create space. Amdouni and Rodriguez isn't really a partnership- Jay is a decent focal point these days but he's not going to run in behind, and nor does Amdouni, and nor is Amdouni dropping in as a genuine 10 - so Amdouni is essentially replicating Jay's positioning without the physical presence. Even on Saturday, for 20 minutes in the second half Amdouni was too easily marked and didn't do enough to help the team break Sheff U down.

Last night this was exacerbated by the fact for 60 minutes Larssen and JBG were the wingers who equally lack threat in behind. As a result we had 4 players sat just in front of the Wolves defence and no third man runs. It obviously needed sorting and yet the only change was Tresor who has exactly the same issue. It made no sense to me.

So who would you have brought on?

steve1264b wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:03 pm

So who would you have brought on?

Obafemi and/or Redmond. Redmond instead of JBG and Obafemi for Amdouni on about the hour.

Can make an argument for Zaroury but that's a whole different can of worms.

claretspice wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:19 pm

Obafemi and/or Redmond. Redmond instead of JBG and Obafemi for Amdouni on about the hour.

Can make an argument for Zaroury but that's a whole different can of worms.

Obafemi wasn’t in the squad.

Redmond should have been the choice - I think he’s generally being under utilised.