Page 1 of 1
Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:30 pm
by Rowls
Not since 1997 have I felt this deflated at our performances. Not for 25+ years has high expectation been deflated at such Hindenberg levels.
Just as back then, we are a disorganised mess at the back. We seemingly lack each and every character trait required to defend stoutly.
We got a Payton / Little inspired miracle back in 97/98. We need something similar in order to be in with a chance this season.
There are plenty of differences though, the comparison only works so far:
Waddle wasted a tonne of money of players who simply weren't good enough. The players we've brought in this season are nearly all exceptional talents. I don't doubt for a second that these are PL standard players.
What we are lacking though is balance in the squad, proper organisation and good tactics and strategy.
Don't give up hope just yet, because these players do look genuinely talented. But everybody please pray for a miracle in the second half of the season.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:32 pm
by Wokingclaret
They have to prove it, they aren't. its a No from me
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:37 pm
by Mark the Claret
Wokingclaret wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:32 pm
They have to prove it, they aren't. its a No from me
And a no from me unfortunately
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:39 pm
by Elizabeth
Rowls wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:30 pm
Not since 1997 have I felt this deflated at our performances. Not for 25+ years has high expectation been deflated at such Hindenberg levels.
Just as back then, we are a disorganised mess at the back. We seemingly lack each and every character trait required to defend stoutly.
We got a Payton / Little inspired miracle back in 97/98. We need something similar in order to be in with a chance this season.
There are plenty of differences though, the comparison only works so far:
Waddle wasted a tonne of money of players who simply weren't good enough. The players we've brought in this season are nearly all exceptional talents. I don't doubt for a second that these are PL standard players.
What we are lacking though is balance in the squad, proper organisation and good tactics and strategy.
Don't give up hope just yet, because these players do look genuinely talented. But everybody please pray for a miracle in the second half of the season.
The thing is Rowls , these aren’t PL players and never will be.
If it’s about the organisation, tactics and strategy then I assume your post is a veiled attack on Kompany
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:44 pm
by JBR
It’s not even that good
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:53 pm
by Westleigh
Elizabeth wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:39 pm
The thing is Rowls , these aren’t PL players and never will be.
If it’s about the organisation, tactics and strategy then I assume your post is a veiled attack on Kompany
I don’t think it needs to be a veiled attack on VK ,why should it be veiled ,the blame is squarely at his front door.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:59 pm
by Burnley1989
Elizabeth wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:39 pm
The thing is Rowls , these aren’t PL players and never will be.
If it’s about the organisation, tactics and strategy then I assume your post is a veiled attack on Kompany
And never will be…. Well you’re wrong there
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:01 pm
by Rowls
Elizabeth wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:39 pm
The thing is Rowls , these aren’t PL players and never will be.
If it’s about the organisation, tactics and strategy then I assume your post is a veiled attack on Kompany
Have to respectfully disagree with you there Elizabeth. I think our squad is more than talented enough.
We saw under Dyche how a well organised team can beat a team with more talented players. They can that on a regular basis if they consistently get the basics right and push the margins by hassling opposition and dictating the tempo.
It is not a "thinly veiled attack on Kompany" - it is a direct criticism of the tactics we've employed for most of this season. We've looked a lot better over the past 3-4 games but we're still not well enough organised at the back.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:04 pm
by CoolClaret
Three ways to look at it:
1) They are PL quality players and VK isn’t getting the most out of their ability - minus marks for VK
2) They aren’t PL quality players and VK is getting the most out of them - minus marks for the recruitment (heavily influenced by VK)
3) They aren’t PL quality players and VK isn’t getting the most of them - minus marks for both the recruitment and managerial ability
The buck has to stop somewhere, right?
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:08 pm
by Woodleyclaret
Koleosho is a massive miss but I don't understand why Zaroury Benny and Obafemi aren't starting
I also don't get why Redmond gets on at all .
We had a great chance today but tactics and personal we all wrong.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:14 pm
by NickBFC
CoolClaret wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:04 pm
Three ways to look at it:
1) They are PL quality players and VK isn’t getting the most out of their ability - minus marks for VK
2) They aren’t PL quality players and VK is getting the most out of them - minus marks for the recruitment (heavily influenced by VK)
3) They aren’t PL quality players and VK isn’t getting the most of them - minus marks for both the recruitment and managerial ability
The buck has to stop somewhere, right?
For me the biggest issue has been our naivety on and off the pitch. We don't seem to be learning on the pitch, have we learned anything for the next transfer window? Will probably be too late then anyway.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:23 pm
by BurnleyFC
We might have some talented players on our hands - hell, aren’t all professional footballers talented to a certain extent - but I don’t think many will make the grade at Premier League level.
You have to be absolutely top class to be small and slight, as most of our young lads are, and make it at the highest level.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:27 pm
by ClaretTony
Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:08 pm
I also don't get why Redmond gets on at all .
Really? I'm baffled he hasn't had more game time.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:30 pm
by Mark the Claret
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:27 pm
Really? I'm baffled he hasn't had more game time.
So am I, along with a few other players we've spent big on that can't get more than a few minutes here and there
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:32 pm
by dandeclaret
Feels to have more parallels with the Eddie Howe time to me. Lots of players with potential, but a system, an approach and a naivety that doesn't allow them to showcase their skills, especially when there's a lack of a spine in the team, a lack of physicality and necessary work rate, limited cohesion between units, and a goalkeeper who is below the required standard.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:28 am
by Foshiznik
I personally would love to see more of the likes of Tresor, Redmond, Massengo, Ramsay, etc. for more than 5 minute cameos before throwing the towel in.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 1:36 am
by dsr
CoolClaret wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:04 pm
Three ways to look at it:
1) They are PL quality players and VK isn’t getting the most out of their ability - minus marks for VK
2) They aren’t PL quality players and VK is getting the most out of them - minus marks for the recruitment (heavily influenced by VK)
3) They aren’t PL quality players and VK isn’t getting the most of them - minus marks for both the recruitment and managerial ability
The buck has to stop somewhere, right?
Fourth possibility - they are PL standard players, but too many of the same type who can't form a team that will win games.
I'm coming round to the idea that too many mistakes have been made in recruitment and this squad cannot stop up because they aren't good enough at tippy-tappy and aren't big enough to play any other way. We can't beat the likes of Everton (and West Ham, for that matter) because we can't defend under pressure. Not big enough and not strong enough comes first, not good enough only possibly. Of course, the huge inexperience in the squad doesn't help, and we have far too many players.
I vote for relegation but keeping Kompany, sell half the squad, replace only a very few, and repeat last season in 2024-25. Which will be far more fun. And then, hopefully, Kompany will still be here and will have learned from his mistakes and we can crack on.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:34 am
by Claretforever
If you added a Nick Pope, a James Tarkowski and a Joey Barton down the spin of our team we’d be mid table.
We have little in the way of physicality, nobody grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck, and no leaders on the pitch. There is nobody picking up dropped heads. Nobody putting a shift in to inspire others around them. Nobody to have words with the young lads. Nobody getting the crowd going.
This experiment with Kompany is becoming annoying. Yes, the football is pretty, but when you’re playing across the back and back and forth with the keeper as though you’re half an hour in and it’s 0-0, when the reality is you’re 2-0 down and there’re 5-10 minutes left, is infuriating.
I do actually believe we have so real talent in the team, but for 2-3 years time. Recruitment was terrible in the summer.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:36 am
by CoolClaret
Claretforever wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:34 am
This experiment with Kompany is becoming annoying. Yes, the football is pretty,
Is it though?
It's been bloody awful all year. Ponderous crap.
Call me old fashioned but I like a team that can get in the face of the opposition and get the crowd on side. Can't do with this daudling on the ball to 'draw a press' then be too shite to actually beat it.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:40 am
by Claretforever
CoolClaret wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:36 am
Is it though?
It's been bloody awful all year. Ponderous crap.
Call me old fashioned but I like a team that can get in the face of the opposition and get the crowd on side. Can't do with this daudling on the ball to 'draw a press' then be too shite to actually beat it.
Yes, it’s very tidy football. Some people just want it hoofed, and that’s fine, there are many ways to play the game. I prefer it more mixed to be honest.
Of my entire comment though, the rest was basically saying what you’ve just said, so I’m surprised you focused on that.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:43 am
by CoolClaret
Claretforever wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:40 am
Yes, it’s very tidy football. Some people just want it hoofed, and that’s fine, there are many ways to play the game. I prefer it more mixed to be honest.
Of my entire comment though, the rest was basically saying what you’ve just said, so I’m surprised you focused on that.
I don't want it hoofed - far from it.
Just get on the front foot; got a man over I want a quick pass played out to him... I don't want the keeper standing on the ball trying to draw someone in then rolling it 8 yard to a centre half that passes back, rinse repeat till the keeper then passes to the opposition when they're all in position.
Focused on it because you said it was pretty - now tidy. I just disagree, think it's been naive at best and torrid at worst.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:46 am
by Claretforever
CoolClaret wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:43 am
I don't want it hoofed - far from it.
Just get on the front foot; got a man over I want a quick pass played out to him... I don't want the keeper standing on the ball trying to draw someone in then rolling it 8 yard to a centre half that passes back, rinse repeat till the keeper then passes to the opposition when they're all in position.
Focused on it because you said it was pretty - now tidy. I just disagree, think it's been naive at best and torrid at worst.
The rest of my initial comment was about getting physical players in and being in players faces to get the crowd going, disrupting the opposition.
If you don’t think passing the ball about on the floor isn’t “pretty football” or “tidy” then I don’t know what is.
Again, I’m agreeing with you that it’s not working.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:59 am
by CoolClaret
Claretforever wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:46 am
The rest of my initial comment was about getting physical players in and being in players faces to get the crowd going, disrupting the opposition.
If you don’t think passing the ball about on the floor isn’t “pretty football” or “tidy” then I don’t know what is.
Again, I’m agreeing with you that it’s not working.
Prob saying the same thing here;
Playing direct can involve passing the ball on the deck (think of a United 2008 or something).
Just because we pass it about doesn't make it 'tidy' nor 'pretty' when it's going nowhere, imo.
Direct ≠ Launching it.
I really thought VK would set us up to be more of a counter attacking side this year - utilising the passing range of our Keeper and defenders we had last year.
We seemed to counter much more last season despite being a favourite in most games.
I appreciate passing lanes/angles are more closely defended playing against better opposition but it seems to be the first thought at all times is to hold on to the ball to invite a press, when there is opportunities to play it out (along the deck) at pace and get at teams when they aren't set in.
That's what I'm trying to get at, and why it isn't 'pretty'. It's turgid to me.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:03 am
by Garnerssoap
Waddle season lol. Bit harsh. I remember leaving York after a 3-1 defeat about 5 games in but being chuffed because we’d finally managed to score.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:07 am
by beddie
Part of the problem to me is 123. 1= * A tall dominant keeper. 2= *Centre half. 3= *Centre forward.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:22 am
by Claretforever
CoolClaret wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:59 am
Prob saying the same thing here;
Playing direct can involve passing the ball on the deck (think of a United 2008 or something).
Just because we pass it about doesn't make it 'tidy' nor 'pretty' when it's going nowhere, imo.
Direct ≠ Launching it.
I really thought VK would set us up to be more of a counter attacking side this year - utilising the passing range of our Keeper and defenders we had last year.
We seemed to counter much more last season despite being a favourite in most games.
I appreciate passing lanes/angles are more closely defended playing against better opposition but it seems to be the first thought at all times is to hold on to the ball to invite a press, when there is opportunities to play it out (along the deck) at pace and get at teams when they aren't set in.
That's what I'm trying to get at, and why it isn't 'pretty'. It's turgid to me.
I fully get it, but that’s just your opinion compared with mine on whether passing and keeping possession is pretty and tidy or not compared with lots of direct play that with our current squad make up is basically just giving the ball back to the opposition. Neither is fact.
At least we’ve got something to discuss as being a fan this season has been a terrible experience in my opinion. Others might be loving it of course.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:24 am
by TPClaret
Not even comparable. That was 3rd division, this is premier league. Did anyone really think it would be easy. Problem is we win the Championship so easily everyone was getting carried away. We got promoted way ahead of schedule. VK has only had one full season in English football and that was in the championship. Massive step up to managing in the premier league. Even if we go down I’d stick with him, it’s the Burnley way. We stuck with Dyche when we got relegated, VK has earned the right after last season
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:23 am
by Madpete
Post by Garnerssoap » Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:03 am
Waddle season lol. Bit harsh. I remember leaving York after a 3-1 defeat about 5 games in but being chuffed because we’d finally managed to score.
Yes,remember those nil- nils & then the York defeat but I was disappointed when Waddle left at the end of the season as he seemed to be developing a decent side…that season finale against Plymouth was a game to live long in the memory,good football in spite of the possibility of relegation.
Re: Parallels with the Waddle Season
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:26 am
by Madpete
Can anyone tell me how to highlight Garnerssoap’s comments?
