• The most annoying thing for me is….

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:49 pm**

The thing that’s annoyed me most about this season is why we have just abandoned last seasons tactics?

We are at home 2-0 down to Everton, where is the press? Where’s the overlapping fullback? Where is the inverted fullback creating a midfield 3?

This whole creating overloads has gone. Now what are we?

We don’t press, we aren’t a solid defensive counter attack, we don’t kick long with any success, we’re awful at set pieces, what is the aim?

We just seem to pass it around sideways and backwards slowly with zero tempo until the opposition press us and we cough it up.

I’d rather see us going down with the same tactics as last season, this new VK style is considerably worse to watch too. Go get beat 3 or 4 nil but give it a go, we wouldn’t have scored tonight if we were still playing now. Zzzzzz

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:50 pm**

From game 1 we abandoned the inverted full back, flying other full back, Cullen covering, high press.

People will act like we are getting relegated playing the same way as last season but we aren’t even remotely close to playing the same way.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:55 pm**

Our team today had what, two players in common with our team last season. We didn't play a back 5 or a front 4 capable of doing what we did last season. We don't have those players anymore.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:58 pm**

It’s biggest grudge, his attitude is, “it won’t work, the standard is too good”
He’s probably right but we’ve never tried

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:00 pm**

Little annoying
The game was decided on 2 set pieces. Maybe true. But these came about because we **** about with it trying to being sides onto use which has not happened all season successfully.
If your **** poor at defending set plays then you'd do everything to avoid them. Or not

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:13 pm**

We were once a relentless pressing side now we do everything so slow and ponderous

Haven’t even tried to play the same way all season

We’d have Brownhill Roberts Benson all right wing playing neat little triangles

Now we have Odobert running down the wing marked by 3 players all on his own

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:28 pm**

It's almost as if the opposition are somehow better than the teams we played last year and they aren't allowing us to play the way we did last season.

Who could have predicted that?

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:34 pm**

No need to be flippant, that helps no one.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:34 pm**

Tall Paul wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:28 pm
It's almost as if the opposition are somehow better than the teams we played last year and they aren't allowing us to play the way we did last season.

Who could have predicted that?

Not even Vincent Kompany, judging by the players that he spent money on in the Summer and the tactics he is deploying on the field of play.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:35 pm**

Tall Paul wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:28 pm
It's almost as if the opposition are somehow better than the teams we played last year and they aren't allowing us to play the way we did last season.

Who could have predicted that?

They cannot stop us from playing with an inverted fullback or pressing high…. We can set up however we like

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:37 pm**

kentonclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:34 pm
Not even Vincent Kompany, judging by the players that he spent money on in the Summer and the tactics he is deploying on the field of play.

But there’s where I disagree, we aren’t even trying to play anything like we did last season. The actual shape of the team is nowhere near the same.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:38 pm**

Tall Paul wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:28 pm
It's almost as if the opposition are somehow better than the teams we played last year and they aren't allowing us to play the way we did last season.

Who could have predicted that?

We put 4 past Bournemouth away last season and competed at Old Trafford.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:40 pm**

Baffled by todays performance! Apart from set pieces we have defended reasonably well over the last 6-7 matches.we are limiting teams to a low amount of chances now each match.But our attacking as gone the other way even worse than it was,I kept looking at the score to make sure it was 2 nil with 10 mins left. We was passing it about around our back 5 inc Trafford and waiting for them to press.why the hell would they push out was dreadfull today fed up with it now.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:40 pm**

For me it's the Summer recruitment. No idea what system would work for the players we brought in. It's bizarre and the root cause of all the problems we are seeing - but you all already knew that.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:41 pm**

daveisaclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:55 pm
Our team today had what, two players in common with our team last season. We didn't play a back 5 or a front 4 capable of doing what we did last season. We don't have those players anymore.

Exactly this.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:44 pm**

VK spent the summer talking about how he knew exactly what was needed to compete at PL level (i.e. lots of references to Man City's physicality), so it wasn't a complete surprise to me that he set about signing so many new players. The surprise was that the players he's bought are the opposite of what he spoke about over the summer.

Apart from the passing triangles between the keeper and centre halves, I'm not sure anyone can point to the consistent tactics and patterns of play like we could last season.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:57 pm**

The crucial players in that season have either not been signed or been dropped. Maatsen, Tella, Harwood-Bellis, Muric, Zaroury, Cullen. Players like Taylor, O'Shea and Trafford just can't play the same way.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:31 am**

If Everton didn’t have the 10 point deduction they would be 8th. Maybe we lost to an inform team?

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:53 am**

It's the bloody goalie.........open your eyes!

Our defenders are always looking at him instead of upfield.
His short passes are defensive/behind the defender & his long clearances aren't within 5 yards of their intended target....he makes the odd good save but constantly puts the defense under pressure.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:56 am**

Taffy on the wing wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:53 am
It's the bloody goalie.........open your eyes!

Our defenders are always looking at him instead of upfield.
His short passes are defensive/behind the defender & his long clearances aren't within 5 yards of their intended target....he makes the odd good save but constantly puts the defense under pressure.

It's not just the goalkeeper but he is a huge part of the problem. He's just too slow to distribute, he doesn't have the same skillset.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 1:01 am**

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:56 am
It's not just the goalkeeper but he is a huge part of the problem. He's just too slow to distribute, he doesn't have the same skillset.

As we saw with Nick Pope ....he may not improve much in the kicking department & our style depends on it.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 1:16 am**

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:56 am
It's not just the goalkeeper but he is a huge part of the problem. He's just too slow to distribute, he doesn't have the same skillset.

Unfortunately while VK remains, this will not change. Not that I want him to go, but he has to give Muric the nod.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 1:42 am**

Taffy on the wing wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:53 am
It's the bloody goalie.........open your eyes!

Our defenders are always looking at him instead of upfield.
His short passes are defensive/behind the defender & his long clearances aren't within 5 yards of their intended target....he makes the odd good save but constantly puts the defense under pressure.

It’s the keepers fault we aren’t high pressing or playing with an inverted fullback? That doesn’t make sense.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 2:15 am**

SEE THE THREAD TITLE! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 2:58 am**

Hey at least you’re starting to see what’s been bloody obvious since the Villa game.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:32 am**

The keeper is clearly very good at shot stopping … but his overall game is nowhere near good enough and
At corners he is unable to defend high balls into the box .. until we put Muric in we are going to come bottoms
Of this league

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:41 am**

LoveCurryPies wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:31 am
If Everton didn’t have the 10 point deduction they would be 8th. Maybe we lost to an inform team?

They are certainly in form, but I think it's once again about the manner of the defeat.

I can't quite see what we are trying to do most of the time. Last night the ball must have ended up with O'Shea about 15 times, when he stood, put his foot on it, looked up and there was absolutely ZERO movement. No one looking to get in behind, no one coming short from midfield, it was very odd. Either no-one wanted the ball or no-one knew what to do.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:33 am**

Carlos the Great wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:32 am
The keeper is clearly very good at shot stopping … but his overall game is nowhere near good enough and
At corners he is unable to defend high balls into the box .. until we put Muric in we are going to come bottoms
Of this league

Unfortunately a lot of his stops he parries into the middle of the 6 yard box instead of catching them or pushing them round the post ,what hold Trafford has on VK I hazard to guess but it’s bloody powerful.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:35 am**

The most annoying thing for me is the majority of other teams never look any better than us, but we make stupid errors at the back and are always prone to let in the softest of goals out of absolutely nowhere when we're actually playing ok, on top or at least matching them and in some cases taking the game to the opposition. Palace, Wolves, Everton and a host of others are perfect examples. It's extremely frustrating.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:53 am**

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:35 am
The most annoying thing for me is the majority of other teams never look any better than us, but we make stupid errors at the back and are always prone to let in the softest of goals out of absolutely nowhere when we're actually playing ok, on top or at least matching them and in some cases taking the game to the opposition. Palace, Wolves, Everton and a host of others are perfect examples. It's extremely frustrating.

Personally I feel most teams will now set up and say ‘let them have the ball, they won’t do anything with it and will gift us a goal anyway’

Then there’s the better teams, likes of Spurs, Villa, City etc, that won’t alter their style but are head and shoulders above us in every department.

Unless something changes we’re doomed, and nothing will change because VK has said from day one he isn’t going to change how he approaches the games.

And as for next season, unless this team clicks, that could be a long slog too.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:59 am**

still no peas in the Bob lord

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:07 am**

VKs stubborn tactics not working need changing along with our goal keeper coach

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:13 am**

I don’t really get this idea about not trying what we did last season in terms of system?

There are a few reasons:

- we have used the exact same shape / system as last season many times, notably at home to Spurs and Villa, after those games we had cries of ‘we can’t play that way, Kompany needs to be more pragmatic’
- there is a clear lack of confidence compared to last season, watching last seasons team with full swagger (generally the 2nd half of the season) is a complete contrast to watching a team devoid of confidence, the one time we played with some swagger (ironically against a Championship team) we won 5-0
- the level we are up against, including Everton, is just quite significantly better. Recency bias means we forget how there were many, many games last season we struggled to create chances in, only for Benson to come on and win the game (he came on yesterday and didn’t get close to goal). It’s almost a different sport watching that Everton team compared to Millwall.
- admittedly we were generally excellent at pressing last season and for one reason or another aren’t as good at it this season (Barnes and Tella were the orchestrators there).
- data suggests we have similar passing speed and passes per sequence as last season (see below)

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:17 am**

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:07 am
VKs stubborn tactics not working need changing along with our goal keeper coach

Add to that the set piece coach as our set plays are nothing short of embarrassing for this level of football..

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:22 am**

Andreshotboots wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:17 am
Add to that the set piece coach as our set plays are nothing short of embarrassing for this level of football.. going back many years David Eyres used to do exactly what McNeil, and Ward Prowse do so its nothing new nor rocket sceince.

Eyres just used to dump his corners right under the bar at the far post and they caused chaos. Not sure why we can't even try that with Berge, and Beyer maybe hassling the keeper. It's not as if we are unsure it works as we are horrific at defending those and have a birds eye view every week..

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:24 am**

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:13 am
I don’t really get this idea about not trying what we did last season in terms of system?

There are a few reasons:

- we have used the exact same shape / system as last season many times, notably at home to Spurs and Villa, after those games we had cries of ‘we can’t play that way, Kompany needs to be more pragmatic’
- there is a clear lack of confidence compared to last season, watching last seasons team with full swagger (generally the 2nd half of the season) is a complete contrast to watching a team devoid of confidence, the one time we played with some swagger (ironically against a Championship team) we won 5-0
- the level we are up against, including Everton, is just quite significantly better. Recency bias means we forget how there were many, many games last season we struggled to create chances in, only for Benson to come on and win the game (he came on yesterday and didn’t get close to goal). It’s almost a different sport watching that Everton team compared to Millwall.
- admittedly we were generally excellent at pressing last season and for one reason or another aren’t as good at it this season (Barnes and Tella were the orchestrators there).
- data suggests we have similar passing speed and passes per sequence as last season (see below)

- We didn't roll out the early/mid season style early on this season, we had the system of a fullback coming into the middle which I didn't particularly like and i thought made us notably worse when we started tinkering from our 4-2-3-1 to that sort of 4-1-4-1

- You'd expect us to be more that way out last season with teams that sat in a hell of a lot more - like you said teams like Rotherham and Milwall etc.

This year teams aren't sat in anywhere near the same and press us much higher up the pitch but we're still trying to build up slowly? Why?

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:34 am**

CoolClaret wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:24 am
- We didn't roll out the early/mid season style early on this season, we had the system of a fullback coming into the middle which I didn't particularly like and i thought made us notably worse when we started tinkering from our 4-2-3-1 to that sort of 4-1-4-1

- You'd expect us to be more that way out last season with teams that sat in a hell of a lot more - like you said teams like Rotherham and Milwall etc.

This year teams aren't sat in anywhere near the same and press us much higher up the pitch but we're still trying to build up slowly? Why?

Didn’t that 4-1-4-1 last season produce our strongest set of results? Second half of the season we averaged 2.54 points per game (I think). We also played that system in the cup away game at Bournemouth that we won 4-2. We blew away the likes of PNE at home and then Huddersfield/Wigan (albeit crap), while putting in a resolute display at Boro in the promotion winning game, all using that shape.

On the point of why we are still building up slowly, I guess that’s the managers underlying philosophy (on the graphic we see Everton top left). But I guess my point is there is still a lot of similarities, while a few tweaks lately to the 4-4-2 had seen performances improve.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:40 am**

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:34 am
Didn’t that 4-1-4-1 last season produce our strongest set of results? Second half of the season we averaged 2.54 points per game (I think). We also played that system in the cup away game at Bournemouth that we won 4-2. We blew away the likes of PNE at home and then Huddersfield/Wigan (albeit crap), while putting in a resolute display at Boro in the promotion winning game, all using that shape.

On the point of why we are still building up slowly, I guess that’s the managers underlying philosophy (on the graphic we see Everton top left).

We mixed it up a bit with some fluidity... hard to pinpoint to exact games - Significantly better for me when we had Cork and Cullen with Brownhill in front of them though.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:57 am**

Burnley1989 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:58 pm
It’s biggest grudge, his attitude is, “it won’t work, the standard is too good”
He’s probably right but we’ve never tried

We haven't tried and his adaptation is blatantly not working either.
Really tired of being told we apparently played brilliantly when we keep losing in the same manner. I'd take an ugly win over a pretty loss every day.
We didn't sign Tella or an equivalent - if it's Obafemi he's not been used in that way when fit.
We didn't sign Maatsen or an equivalent, Vitinho sometimes tries to invert on the right but we haven't actually set up to do that this year, he might be going inside or sometimes finding space but between his end product issues and the general team setup and disjointedness (and the lack of a sharp, mobile striker the past couple months) it hasn't worked. Don't mind persevering with him trying but the rest of the shape isn't helping it.
We keep playing a pass from the back, through the keeper system with a keeper not as good at passing for all his shot stopping. He's nervier and less effective short range, and is inaccurate long-range again not helped by the lack of the Tella outlet except once vs Sheffield from Brun Larsen (coming from O'Shea's ball). It puts so much emphasis on setting the tempo on a player whose strong suit isn't being a playmaker keeper.
We try to do this slow steady build from the back and set the tempo creeping forwards side to side with fixed positions, but have persevered with the lead mobile and least effective link striker in the league instead of at any point trying someone else even out of position to see if they have the right attributes (which we did last year trying Taylor at CB, JBG at CM, Brownhill at CAM). Result is we get stuck in the final third and either turn back and risk errors in overplaying, or become reliant on someone getting frustrated and just committing to making something happen at the risk of losing the ball.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:04 am**

daveisaclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:38 pm
We put 4 past Bournemouth away last season and competed at Old Trafford.

We beat a Bournemouth team that wanted out the cup to focus on the league

And we didn’t compete at Old Trafford haha.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:12 am**

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:04 am
We beat a Bournemouth team that wanted out the cup to focus on the league

And we didn’t compete at Old Trafford haha.

Why do you feel so comfortable lying? Bournemouth made 3 changes to play us from the team they played at Old Trafford days before and yet you are comfortable to pretend that they wanted to lose. Were they upset when they equalised? Was that an accident?

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:16 am**

The slow tempo which has been widely picked up on this thread, starts with Trafford. He claims the ball from an attack and takes an eternity before releasing the ball, then its given to one of our centre halves who play it side ways 6 or 7 times, often nearly getting dispossessed, and it goes back to TRafford. By this time all of the opposition are in place and there is no way we can then penetrate them with our style.

Nick Pope for me is a good example of how the coaches have worked on his shortcomings-he now gets the ball and his first thought is a quick throw to start off a very quick attack. Our tempo of last year of getting Tella, and the two wide men Zarroury and Benson involved has gone.We did it for 10 minutes last night with Larson and Odobert and they gave Everton some real issues with their pace, Tarks was really bollocking his defenders for getting exposed. THere were a couple of times Trafford found one of our midfielders with a drilled pass, but that person needs to have skill to not get dispossessed.
I think its cruel we have not used Muric in a single PL game.Personally I prefer Trafford, but when you have lost all but 4 games you would probably try your other keeper. I can also see VK bringing Cullen back next week as he does make himself available for passes from defenders. And then you look at the dug out and they are all buried in their laptops

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:17 am**

The problem is the way we want to play in its purest form doesn't work in the Prem.

It never worked for the likes of Norwich and I doubt it'll ever work for us.

Unless we become more pragmatic we'll almost certainly get relegated whenever we return to the Prem.

It simply can't work unless we adapt.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:28 am**

For me it's the inability to defend set pieces. We have a manager who was a dominant CB and we concede easy goals from set pieces due to the lack of an aerial challenge.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:33 am**

daveisaclaret wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:12 am
Why do you feel so comfortable lying? Bournemouth made 3 changes to play us from the team they played at Old Trafford days before and yet you are comfortable to pretend that they wanted to lose. Were they upset when they equalised? Was that an accident?

Off course they did they were in a relegation battle.

Same as us this year, we would happily not compete in any competition other than the prem so we can focus our resource.

When who equalised? What are you On about

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:10 pm**

CryerBFC wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 8:53 am

Unless something changes we’re doomed, and nothing will change because VK has said from day one he isn’t going to change how he approaches the games.

But here’s the annoying thing because fans on here keep repeating this kind of thing but we clearly HAVE changed……

System wise we are miles away from what was so successful last season. We are not trying to do the same things or play the same way at all.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:15 pm**

KRBFC wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:10 pm
But here’s the annoying thing because fans on here keep repeating this kind of thing but we clearly HAVE changed……

System wise we are miles away from what was so successful last season. We are not trying to do the same things or play the same way at all.

Can’t play the same system if you don’t buy the players that played it.

Offering £9m for tella was ridiculous like an insult to the guy that scored 26 goals

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:17 pm**

Spijed wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:17 am
The problem is the way we want to play in its purest form doesn't work in the Prem.

It never worked for the likes of Norwich and I doubt it'll ever work for us.

Unless we become more pragmatic we'll almost certainly get relegated whenever we return to the Prem.

It simply can't work unless we adapt.

Again another poster pretending we’re trying to play the same way as last season, we aren’t.

We are no longer a passing pressing team with a fluid system designed to create 3v2s in areas of the pitch.

We are now a pass around defence until we get pressed and cough it up. Zero pressing. Zero tempo. Zero fluidity.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:22 pm**

KRBFC wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:17 pm
Again another poster pretending we’re trying to play the same way as last season, we aren’t.

We are no longer a passing pressing team with a fluid system designed to create 3v2s in areas of the pitch.

We are now a pass around defence until we get pressed and cough it up. Zero pressing. Zero tempo. Zero fluidity.

Spot on and our change to 442 to make us a bit more solid hasn't made us any better in attack.
Our subs tend to be like for like rather than step it up.
The reason I rate Larsen despite his iffy couple games is he's someone who tries to make things happen and take risks. Benson does too, Vitinho too even without end product.
So often this season we've needed to pick up the tempo, go more direct in the sense of get at the goal or behind defenders and get shots away, instead we just stay pedestrian or think being more direct means just going long to nobody rather than being incisive.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:26 pm**

spt_claret wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:22 pm
Spot on and our change to 442 to make us a bit more solid hasn't made us any better in attack.
Our subs tend to be like for like rather than step it up.
The reason I rate Larsen despite his iffy couple games is he's someone who tries to make things happen and take risks. Benson does too, Vitinho too even without end product.
So often this season we've needed to pick up the tempo, go more direct in the sense of get at the goal or behind defenders and get shots away, instead we just stay pedestrian or think being more direct means just going long to nobody rather than being incisive.

Our best chance yesterday came from a ball over the top to Vitinho who should’ve found Zeki

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