Dear PGMOL

[Rileybobs]

Seemed to me that Tresor was backing up Taylor and covering the inside. No idea why Taylor allowed so much space on the outside, it was very poor defending.

[aggi]

We're into the existential question of what is VAR for. I want fewer interneventions, not more, and I want them quicker. So I want a high bar for VAR. Call it what you will.

I also want a presumption dives don't win penalties but they are separate and compatible points - the on field ref just needs to know that call will be backed by VAR and the authorities.

As ever though, this is a distraction. Start by getting our own house in order. We did not work hard enough or aggressively enough in critical moments. The refereeing calls are secondary to that.

Assuming it's not going to get abolished (which it isn't, the box is open now) then I think that's what most of us want. It isn't what we have in reality though so saying that decisions can't be overruled because the error isn't clear and obvious is pointless, many decisions are overturned that aren't clear and obvious errors.

It may be a distraction in terms of the villa result but it's not a distraction in terms of the bigger debate around refereeing and VAR. Refereeing is still hugely inconsistent but, as a match going fan, you now get the added bonus of interminable waits for decisions.

I saw this elsewhere from a Villa fan which sums it up nicely:

So having just renewed my non-plastic card, I realised it's the first VAR game I've been to. ******* hell it's awful. Completely ruins the game live. We had 18 minutes added on, mostly because of var. But often no indication that anything was being looked at, just the players and ref standing around for a few minutes.
Probably looking at offside there, people mutter. Looked like a possible handball in the buildup phase, others surmise.
****, ****, ****. And not getting the level of errors any better.

[CrosspoolClarets]

By the way, regarding the lady at Fulham, yesterday was evidence that she needs to be given many more games, she is miles better.

[claretspice]

Seemed to me that Tresor was backing up Taylor and covering the inside. No idea why Taylor allowed so much space on the outside, it was very poor defending.

I don't think Tresor does remotely enough to cover the chop inside and as a result Taylor cannot fully commit to dealing the possibility he goes on the outside. Tresor is completely passive throughout that phase and is never in a position to affect the play. He doesn't run with any intensity at any point.

[Hipper]

The biggest issue in the Premier League is not the quality of referees but the incessant cheating by the players, probably encouraged (certainly not discouraged) by their managers.

[Awayfromburnley]

Referees in the Prem are not corrupt, it simply isn't worth it nor would it be easy.

They do their best each game but get things wrong. As do players, manager and coaches etc.

I hate they get things wrong, I hate the inconsistencies-but it will never ever be eliminated. The introduction of VAR has micro analysed everything and there isn't the technological advancement on the decision-making side of things.

So you've got top end tech providing micro views of everything but still human judgement- you are only as strong as your weakest point.

[quoonbeatz]

Our players are absolutely not to blame here. Could they have done better? Yes, probably but they're human beings and made honest mistakes so it's excusable.

What is inexcusable and indefensible is cheating, and then not identifying and dealing with such blatant cheating. It needs calling out at every opportunity, because they are not honest mistakes. You choose to cheat and with numerous angles of replays you also choose to allow it.

I don't understand why the officials are so happy to have the p!ss taken out of them in front of millions, week in, week out. They're so unbelievably weak. Players are openly laughing in their faces and they seem to be fine with that. Weird. It's up to supporters to keep calling this out, not being complicit.

[claretspice]

Our players are absolutely not to blame here. Could they have done better? Yes, probably but they're human beings and made honest mistakes so it's excusable.

What is inexcusable and indefensible is cheating, and then not identifying and dealing with such blatant cheating. It needs calling out at every opportunity, because they are not honest mistakes. You choose to cheat and with numerous angles of replays you also choose to allow it.

I don't understand why the officials are so happy to have the p!ss taken out of them in front of millions, week in, week out. They're so unbelievably weak. Players are openly laughing in their faces and they seem to be fine with that. Weird. It's up to supporters to keep calling this out, not being complicit.

The trouble with this is its identifying a trend which makes the refs job harder whilst blaming them for it- it is the players' fault - and setting them a "no mistakes " threshold, whilst simultaneously forgiving our players mistakes of effort or intent, rather than mere decision making. It is a double standard. Hardly surprising in those circumstances very few see the job as one they want to do.

You are right about cheating and it'd help to eradicate it if everyone was very clear it was going to be looked badly upon. But the media and fans don't give the space to allow that, sadly. The refs are damned by one group of they do, and another if they don't.

[Rileybobs]

I don't think Tresor does remotely enough to cover the chop inside and as a result Taylor cannot fully commit to dealing the possibility he goes on the outside. Tresor is completely passive throughout that phase and is never in a position to affect the play. He doesn't run with any intensity at any point.

Maybe so. Tresor definitely lacked intensity. But Taylor has got to trust that Tresor will do his job and cover the path on the outside. You can never accuse Taylor of a lack of effort but it was poor defending by both players but particularly Taylor who rarely lets a man past him with such ease.

[quoonbeatz]

The trouble with this is its identifying a trend which makes the refs job harder whilst blaming them for it- it is the players' fault - and setting them a "no mistakes " threshold, whilst simultaneously forgiving our players mistakes of effort or intent, rather than mere decision making. It is a double standard. Hardly surprising in those circumstances very few see the job as one they want to do.

You are right about cheating and it'd help to eradicate it if everyone was very clear it was going to be looked badly upon. But the media and fans don't give the space to allow that, sadly. The refs are damned by one group of they do, and another if they don't.

It isn't setting a no mistakes threshold, it's saying you have a lot of technology to help you get things right. If you still can't make the right decisions using all that then you shouldn't be in this job.

It all still comes down to referees having no understanding of football. They haven't played it to any meaningful standard so can't understand it, let alone at the top level. Plus they seem to not want any respect, which is entirely of their own doing. They could clamp down on the type of cheating we saw yesterday so so easily but they refuse to do it. They just facilitate cheating and they're fully complicit in destroying the game.

[CombatClaret]

The biggest issue in the Premier League is not the quality of referees but the incessant cheating by the players, probably encouraged (certainly not discouraged) by their managers.

Taking it back to the next step, it's incentivized by the rules and the money. Citizens obey the law due to a mix of morality and fear of punishment. For most petty crimes the reward is not worth the risk.
But in football, relatively minor infringements such as exaggerating contact, have the potential for huge rewards. One potential penalty could be worth millions in performance bonuses, league position etc.

So long as the reward outweighs the punishment and more importantly, the fear of being caught, then nothing will change.

[Big Vinny K]

The trouble with this is its identifying a trend which makes the refs job harder whilst blaming them for it- it is the players' fault - and setting them a "no mistakes " threshold, whilst simultaneously forgiving our players mistakes of effort or intent, rather than mere decision making. It is a double standard. Hardly surprising in those circumstances very few see the job as one they want to do.

You are right about cheating and it'd help to eradicate it if everyone was very clear it was going to be looked badly upon. But the media and fans don't give the space to allow that, sadly. The refs are damned by one group of they do, and another if they don't.

Footballers making mistakes is very different to officials making mistakes when the latter is based on a framework which has been developed and set by the referees themselves. The officials have created their own environment and a cartel agreement between them as to what they will allow, what they won’t and what their interpretation of the rules and laws are.
Even if rules and laws are changed to try and help decision making or cut down mistakes the officials and their bosses will sit down in their meetings before each season and decide how they are going to interpret and apply these rules.

Diving and simulation is a perfect example. They could choose to punish players much more frequently and far harsher than they do.

A lot of the “mistakes” officials make are deliberate and intentional. Many are nothing to do with individual competence or experience. It’s a lack of backbone and being told what to do if certain incidents and scenarios take place.

Footballers make mistakes because they are human, not good enough, under immense pressure etc. It’s completely different to officials and as can be seen from this messageboard the players are far from “forgiven” for making mistakes.

[CombatClaret]

It all still comes down to referees having no understanding of football. They haven't played it to any meaningful standard so can't understand it, let alone at the top level.

"Has that surgeon ever been in a car crash? No?! Well I don't want them operating on me if they haven't had a car crash to a meaningful standard, how can they understand, it let alone operate at the top level?"

[taio]

"Has that surgeon ever been in a car crash? No?! Well I don't want them operating on me if they haven't had a car crash to a meaningful standard, how can they understand, it let alone operate at the top level?"

[beddie]

Yes there was the slightest touch but then he cheats by diving. What a shame we couldn’t see a brave referee who decided the Villa lad tried to con him and booked him for diving, perhaps he'd have even set a precedent by doing that. I assume no hand ball was given due to the ref not seeing it and therefore VAR doesn’t intervene, had it been the other way round i.e. the Villa lad was trying to score VAR would definitely have been involved. It’s ridiculous.

[Big Vinny K]

"Has that surgeon ever been in a car crash? No?! Well I don't want them operating on me if they haven't had a car crash to a meaningful standard, how can they understand, it let alone operate at the top level?"

100% spot on.
It’s the same with pilots - do you really want someone flying your plane who has not been involved in a plane crash ?
Driving instructors too…..when I learnt to drive I asked my instructor for evidence that he had been involved in a proper car crash - and not just a minor catching somebody’s wing mirror type nonsense.

[Rowls]

I don’t get some of the chat on here aimed at sparing the referee by blaming poor play by us.

The two arent mutually exclusive.

[Hibsclaret]

The worst thing of all is when you watch a game for 5 minutes and immediately realise we are going to get nothing out of the game (and we’re not playing Man C).

[Swizzlestick]

By the way, regarding the lady at Fulham, yesterday was evidence that she needs to be given many more games, she is miles better.

She refereed the PNE v Sheffield Wednesday game the other night. I advise you not to read their review of her performance.

[quoonbeatz]

"Has that surgeon ever been in a car crash? No?! Well I don't want them operating on me if they haven't had a car crash to a meaningful standard, how can they understand, it let alone operate at the top level?"

That makes zero sense but nice try.

You don't operate on a car crash.

[ArnoldBenson]

Just watched Fulham player pulling shirt of breaking Arsenal player, then when this wasn't working he grabbed him and pulled him down. Just a free kick, no card. Yesterday Sander Berge had less of a pull on Villa player and ref couldn't wait to give him a yellow card despite the greater implications of it being a second card. Either both are cards or neither are cards. Frustrating inconsistency.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I’m also watching Fulham and their wingers (and it isn’t just Fulham) just trot back casually into position when Arsenal are attacking down the wing, Willian etc. Watched about 10 examples.

Claretspice has spent a lot of time on this thread targeting Tresor but I’d argue his style of defensive contribution is more the norm than the exception at this level. Don’t know what it is with this fan group always wanting a scapegoat. There were 4 errors for that winner - Attwell, Bankes (VAR), Ramsey (but no foul) and Taylor (who as unfairly careful on a yellow). That’s it.

[RVclaret]

I’m also watching Fulham and their wingers (and it isn’t just Fulham) just trot back casually into position when Arsenal are attacking down the wing, Willian etc. Watched about 10 examples.

Claretspice has spent a lot of time on this thread targeting Tresor but I’d argue his style of defensive contribution is more the norm than the exception at this level. Don’t know what it is with this fan group always wanting a scapegoat. There were 4 errors for that winner - Attwell, Bankes (VAR), Ramsey (but no foul) and Taylor (who as unfairly careful on a yellow). That’s it.

Agree, completely bizarre to blame Tresor at all for that goal.

[CombatClaret]

That makes zero sense but nice try.
You don't operate on a car crash.

You're right, the correct but less amusing example would be air traffic control, where highly trained and experienced professionals make split-second decisions in a high data environment but importantly, are not and have never been pilots.

The idea that referees cannot officiate because they have not played is clown shoes.

[Rileybobs]

There are other obvious flaws about ex players becoming referees;

Players generally retire in their 30’s - at what age would they have worked their way through the ranks to be able to officiate at the top level?

Football players earn a lot of money - maybe not League 1/League 2 level - but vast amounts in the top two divisions. How much does a newly qualified professional referee earn?

Do ex-players want to be referees? I imagine most retired footballers who want to stay involved in the game would prefer to use their skills and knowledge to coach other players and be ‘part of the dressing room’.

[Goliath]

I don't think Tresor does remotely enough to cover the chop inside and as a result Taylor cannot fully commit to dealing the possibility he goes on the outside. Tresor is completely passive throughout that phase and is never in a position to affect the play. He doesn't run with any intensity at any point.

This sums it up. I've no idea what VK was thinking bringing Tresor on when we knew we were going to come under such heavy heavy pressure. He really is a liability defensively.
Its quite hard to watch someone so disinterested in doing the hard yards in a Burnley shirt tbh, i don't care how talented he is it just isnt what Burnley football club has ever been about

[Madpete]

What is PGMOL??

Asking for an enema?

A pain in the arse!

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

This sums it up. I've no idea what VK was thinking bringing Tresor on when we knew we were going to come under such heavy heavy pressure. He really is a liability defensively.
Its quite hard to watch someone so disinterested in doing the hard yards in a Burnley shirt tbh, i don't care how talented he is it just isnt what Burnley football club has ever been about

Agree he has looked totally disinterested and he came with a lot of hype. Wonder if he will up his levels anytime soon. Looks like he has come here on a holiday or something, looks half asleep on the bench .

[Goliath]

Agree he has looked totally disinterested and he came with a lot of hype. Wonder if he will up his levels anytime soon. Looks like he has come here on a holiday or something, looks half asleep on the bench .

Its clearly the type of player he is and hes got away with it in Belgium as one of the star players. He's starting from scratch here and you just dont get away with it in a struggling side in the Premier League. He has to play as a number 10 for us unless we are chasing the game, otherwise his pros dont outway the cons.

[Hipper]

Most referees are football fans and have likely played football but probably not at any significant level.

How many fans on here have not played football yet sit in judgement of players and referees?

More to the point, how many people on here have actually had a go at refereeing?

Try it. Watch a game (live or on TV) and look at it as a referee might. You have to judge every incident and ask 'what do the Laws say about that? I'm assuming you of course know the Laws inside out!? Then actually make a decision. You can't relax. You have to be sharp all the time. Easy isn't it?

[claretspice]

I’m also watching Fulham and their wingers (and it isn’t just Fulham) just trot back casually into position when Arsenal are attacking down the wing, Willian etc. Watched about 10 examples.

Claretspice has spent a lot of time on this thread targeting Tresor but I’d argue his style of defensive contribution is more the norm than the exception at this level. Don’t know what it is with this fan group always wanting a scapegoat. There were 4 errors for that winner - Attwell, Bankes (VAR), Ramsey (but no foul) and Taylor (who as unfairly careful on a yellow). That’s it.

I don't agree that it is normal for wide players to be as lackadaisical in their defensive duties as Tresor, and I stand by the view thar between him and Taylor they are responsible for ensuring one player does not beat the two of them and not only get a cross in, but end up with the time and space to get along the byline. I think the reason that happened is that it essentially became a 1v1 contest with Taylor, not the 2v1 it should have been.

Not sure Fulham are the best example to use as the stereotype for the Premier league. They are expansive, talented but a bit flighty, reflecting an expensively assembled lower midtable team. Bluntly, if they can beat arsenal without matching their intensity man for man, they have better players than we do so perhaps don't need to work so hard to survive.

Not just critiquing Tresor - I've singled Berge out for the second goal, Ramsey out for being too casual for the penalty and observed it is a general shortcoming of the team. Tresor is not a scapegoat, certainly not for me - he's just one particular culprit in the build up to the defining moment of the match.

[aggi]

The biggest issue in the Premier League is not the quality of referees but the incessant cheating by the players, probably encouraged (certainly not discouraged) by their managers.

But the referees (through the instructions they have been given) reward that cheating.

If cheating was punished rather than rewarded it would be a much more risky option and far fewer players would do it.

There's pretty much no downside to exaggerating or initiating contact so why not do it?

[Carport]

For penalty and potential red card outcomes, I’d like to see referees given the option to sometimes hold their decision whilst they review the pitch side monitor. Previso would be that the monitor would replay the incident in normal time only. Should only be used when a referee is genuinely uncertain in real time as to the correct decision.

[Clockwork Claret]

For penalty and potential red card outcomes, I’d like to see referees given the option to sometimes hold their decision whilst they review the pitch side monitor. Previso would be that the monitor would replay the incident in normal time only. Should only be used when a referee is genuinely uncertain in real time as to the correct decision.

Don't think you see anything clearer in 2D vs 3D.

Refs in the middle are best placed to make the decision. They havs the vision & feel of the game as it is, live. They will make mistakes (they did on Sat) we have to live with that and then just set the bar for VAR v high (consistently). They did that at Villa, I'd say.

[Hipper]

But the referees (through the instructions they have been given) reward that cheating.

If cheating was punished rather than rewarded it would be a much more risky option and far fewer players would do it.

There's pretty much no downside to exaggerating or initiating contact so why not do it?

I don't know what referees' instructions are regarding cheating, as I don't regarding all the grappling, pushes in the back etc. that also happens with impunity.

But you are right, if managers won't stop their players doing this then it's down to the powers that be to sort it out. Maybe these powers that be consider the players so precious that we have to tolerate it. Let's face it, football is still very popular, if not more popular then ever. There doesn't seem to be any indication that people's appetite for it is reducing. The answer for fans who don't like this is to stop watching - certainly stop paying to watch football at the highest level where the problem mainly is.

It's not a moral issue but one of money.

[Carport]

Don't think you see anything clearer in 2D vs 3D.

Refs in the middle are best placed to make the decision. They havs the vision & feel of the game as it is, live. They will make mistakes (they did on Sat) we have to live with that and then just set the bar for VAR v high (consistently). They did that at Villa, I'd say.

It would give the ref the chance to see it again without any interference from those at Stockley Park. The ref would retain full control of the decision without being swayed by any of his colleagues

[gandhisflipflop]

Dermot Gallagher said best case it was a yellow card for the defender and a free kick for Burnley regarding the hand ball.

Some no mark ‘pundit’ said he didn’t handle the ball deliberately. How anyone can watch that and conclude it wasn’t deliberate is beyond me.


They ‘analysed’ the berge second yellow and was unanimous that it was a second yellow, no issues with that but no mention of the first yellow which was where the frustration was.

[Nori1958]

It would give the ref the chance to see it again without any interference from those at Stockley Park. The ref would retain full control of the decision without being swayed by any of his colleagues

I hadn't realised, until they started to release the audio, how much influence the VAR official has. On our disallowed goal at forest, the ref was told on numerous occasions that it was deliberate handball before he'd even seen it, it almost made his mind up for him.
They should just be told that they need to look at something, then shut up, let the ref make a decision on his own.

[quoonbeatz]

You're right, the correct but less amusing example would be air traffic control, where highly trained and experienced professionals make split-second decisions in a high data environment but importantly, are not and have never been pilots.

The idea that referees cannot officiate because they have not played is clown shoes.

Nope that's another crap analogy. An ATC is directing traffic, they don't need to have flown a plane as its a completely different job.

Nobody is saying you can't referee if you haven't played football, but the main reason they make such bad decisions, even when presented with blatantly obvious evidence to the contrary of the decision they made, is because they don't understand the game. They don't have a feel for it.

That penalty is the perfect example. Anyone who has been kicked lightly on the bottom of their football boot knows that you'd hardly feel it and you wouldn't collapse in pain then roll around on the floor. So given then numerous relays from different angles, why would you not reconsider your decision to give a foul? You can see right there with your own eyes that you have been conned but you choose to enable that?

So it's either you don't understand what you're watching or you are weak or corrupt. It's one of those 3 and it would be nice to think it's not the latter.

[quoonbeatz]

But the referees (through the instructions they have been given) reward that cheating.

If cheating was punished rather than rewarded it would be a much more risky option and far fewer players would do it.

There's pretty much no downside to exaggerating or initiating contact so why not do it?

Exactly this.

[quoonbeatz]

Most referees are football fans and have likely played football but probably not at any significant level.

How many fans on here have not played football yet sit in judgement of players and referees?

More to the point, how many people on here have actually had a go at refereeing?

Try it. Watch a game (live or on TV) and look at it as a referee might. You have to judge every incident and ask 'what do the Laws say about that? I'm assuming you of course know the Laws inside out!? Then actually make a decision. You can't relax. You have to be sharp all the time. Easy isn't it?

It's a really easy job. You've got numerous replays from different angles to help make the decision at the top level. You've got yellow and red cards to assert your authority. There's no reason why the standards are so low.

[Hipper]

It's a really easy job.

I remember you said that before.

[quoonbeatz]

I remember you said that before.

Because it is, especially at the top level where they get all the extra help they need.

It's harder to get things right lower down but they make a decision and that's it, on we go with the game, as it should be. But at the top there is really no excuse, especially not for enabling cheating.

[Westleigh]

Dermot Gallagher said best case it was a yellow card for the defender and a free kick for Burnley regarding the hand ball.

Some no mark ‘pundit’ said he didn’t handle the ball deliberately. How anyone can watch that and conclude it wasn’t deliberate is beyond me.


They ‘analysed’ the berge second yellow and was unanimous that it was a second yellow, no issues with that but no mention of the first yellow which was where the frustration was.

They’re all the same these ex ref analysts they fall over backwards to agree with the ref.

[beddie]

Interesting reading all the posts, from them I think we can all agree that there are far too many inconsistencies from referees, I think VK was alluding to this at the weekend. It’s something that Webb needs to put at the top of his next agenda.

[BabylonClaret]

Retrospective harsh penalties (3 match ban min,,) for simulation to affect games.

That would stop it. Providing of course you maintain it.

We all know what happens when they '/toughen upon rules. You getbr or 5 weeks of more pens or 25 mind extra time or bookings , loads of people moaning and the the refs ease off and players keep cheating.

There are plenty of wrong decisions swayed by simulation which you can review afterwards.

It won't happen though be aude a y team being penalised with a ban is going to rail against it - it would lasta couple of weeks and the we would not see it any more.

It's a Shite decision by Atwell but it's largely the way the game has gone over the years

[Silkyskills1]

"Has that surgeon ever been in a car crash? No?! Well I don't want them operating on me if they haven't had a car crash to a meaningful standard, how can they understand, it let alone operate at the top level?"

Agree totally with this. The number of times I've heard from various people that 'those in the game' or have 'been involved in the game' know best. Just doesn't make any sense. It's so annoying to listen to and can easily provoke an unnecessary argument if opposed.
Used to be an argument regarding age with the well used 'he's too old to referee' usually after a defeat. But now we have refs in their 20's, 30's and 40's and that hasn't solved the situation. Bottom line is that there is and has been a dearth of referees for a long time now. We all know the 'root' of the problem but what we are left with is those that didn't call it a day after a threat from the sideline or an attack from a 'combative midfielder'. They're not a chosen few but merely the remaining few.

[quoonbeatz]

Agree totally with this. The number of times I've heard from various people that 'those in the game' or have 'been involved in the game' know best. Just doesn't make any sense. It's so annoying to listen to and can easily provoke an unnecessary argument if opposed.
Used to be an argument regarding age with the well used 'he's too old to referee' usually after a defeat. But now we have refs in their 20's, 30's and 40's and that hasn't solved the situation. Bottom line is that there is and has been a dearth of referees for a long time now. We all know the 'root' of the problem but what we are left with is those that didn't call it a day after a threat from the sideline or an attack from a 'combative midfielder'. They're not a chosen few but merely the remaining few.

Agree away, as I said, it's a nonsense analogy.

It's not about people within the game knowing best it's quite simply that if you've played football, if you've been lightly tapped on the bottom of your boot, with its molded plastic sole, you know you can hardly feel it and you don't collapse like you've been shot and roll around in agony. That's the difference. You know that the player is trying to con the referee. And you know that the var can see that and is letting them get away with it.

[superdimitri]

I think we should do the noble thing and set up a gofundme for Duran. If I set one up who would be interested in donating? He clearly was badly hurt and that kind of injury will probably ruin his career. As fans, it's the least we can do after the assault by Ramsey.
On the plus side, he clearly has the talent to develop a career in acting so at least he won't have to turn to a life of betting and drinking. He could easily get a role as an extra in that Civil War movie being released soon.

[Rick_Muller]

For me there is plenty of focus on what VAR gets wrong and not enough focus on what it could get right providing it was used in a manner that would be effective. The simulation from players is perfect for addressing post match and as mentioned above - strict bans (minimum 3 games, more if more serious) for players who tend to die on the pitch after rolling 15 yards from being clipped on their foot (yes I am referencing the cheating tw@t at Villa). It would either get them to stop doing it, or if the poor souls are hurt with a minor clip, perhaps they could wear boots that weren't just a durex with knobs on for studs...

Add to that the whole histrionics about surrounding a ref on the pitch, anyone caught doing that aggressively - also severe ban.

Probably other issues that could easily be addressed too, far too many to list here.

Little steps that Video evidence could help with, but isn't because the narrative is on millimetres of offsides, and debating subjective decisions ad infinitum - all of which creates the fervour for the media to self perpetuate the whole stinking VAR scenario as it currently is - if it was accurate and 100% correct there'd be no debate which means no interest across all media... which means nothing of interest to sell the the fans... (perhaps I am being cynical)