Amdouni

[Terry Cochrane]

Thought he played well tonight.

I did too but thats faint praise to be honest. I don't particularly think he is a player we need in a relegation scrap. Hoped when he scored ( and it had a bit of fortune that the keeper didn't save it) it would spur him on but I continually got frustrated with him when he squandered possession numerous times and then that overhit pass to Vitinho!

[dandeclaret]

Gudmundsson has had better nights on the ball, but he protected Vitinho really well.

Amdouni used the ball quite well s couple of times but he also butchered 3 counter attacks that I saw by trying to be too ambitious. His movement was also lamentable - against a team playing 3 centre backs and 2 holding midfielders, the space is always going to be down the sides and he did nowhere near enough to consistently offer options. At one point on about 30 minutes Vitinho rightly had a full blown rant at him for not doing so.

More fundamentally though his pressing was awful. He didn't stop Barkley, at all, and nor did he stop the wider of Luton's centre backs advancing, particularly down their right, where Al Dakhil routinely had 2 men because Amdouni wasn't making up the numbers and Odobert wasn't switched on.

On these last two points the comparison is with Foster. He made tireless channel runs, and he closed down for 98 minutes. He set a standard Amdouni got nowhere near matching. He, like Tresor, is hugely gifted but ultimately, unfortunately, a luxury.

So the number 10, who created pretty much all of the best attacking moments, and scored…. Is to blame for the left winger not tracking back to provide cover for the full back?

[Goliath]

So the number 10, who created pretty much all of the best attacking moments, and scored…. Is to blame for the left winger not tracking back to provide cover for the full back?

Thats not what he said, he clearly stated there was 2 contributing factors, one being Amdouni and one being Odobert. He is absolutely correct in that, Amdouni had an absolute shocker out of possession. He doesn't want to make runs where he might not get the ball, thats thr big difference between him and Ings which is the comparison a lot make. He literally can not be bothered running in behind all the time or running channels/closing people down.

It looks to me that he thinks too highly of himself to do those things and wants others to do the dirty work for him. Maybe a spell on the bench will make him realise its unacceptable.

[Pickles]

Amdouni is the main cause of us not defending from the front which leads to teams just strolling through us. He either doesn't know how to do it or simply doesn't want to do it. It's a stark contrast from Barnes and Tella last season who were excellent at it. It's a huge thing and we haven't replaced it. Off the ball all season, we've been so below what is required and Amdouni is the perfect example of it.

[dandeclaret]

Thats not what he said, he clearly stated there was 2 contributing factors, one being Amdouni and one being Odobert. He is absolutely correct in that, Amdouni had an absolute shocker out of possession. He doesn't want to make runs where he might not get the ball, thats thr big difference between him and Ings which is the comparison a lot make. He literally can not be bothered running in behind all the time or running channels/closing people down.

It looks to me that he thinks too highly of himself to do those things and wants others to do the dirty work for him. Maybe a spell on the bench will make him realise its unacceptable.

Or maybe Foster, Odobert/ Koleosho etc are the runners in behind and he’s the player who needs to drop and link play? You’re not going to get too much out of a 10 if you’re remotely asking him to track left wingers back into deep positions. He should be doing more across the front line in pressing, that’s agreed.

[BurnleyFC]

Vitinho is one of the most frustrating players I've ever seen for us. Makes the wrong choice 99% of the time. And certainly isn't a Premier League right back.

Vitinho gets pelters on here at times but you can never question his desire or willingness to show for the ball.

I thought he had a decent enough game last night.

[warksclaret]

Very gifted, but at times tries the impossible as if he considers himself to be "the Salah of our team". I am sure he feels he is un-droppable, which is why I like we have signed Fofana to provide much needed competition

[Pickles]

Vitinho gets pelters on here at times but you can never question his desire or willingness to show for the ball.

I thought he had a decent enough game last night.

Yeah, he's keen and he gets himself about. I'm not sure I'll ever be convinced though, especially at this level. I don't think he's convinced me at Championship level either to be honest. I don't think he's a right back, I don't know what he is.

[Elizabeth]

He was the problem tonight in the second half when we were in transition and needing to keep possession. Not for the first time this season.

[Goliath]

Or maybe Foster, Odobert/ Koleosho etc are the runners in behind and he’s the player who needs to drop and link play? You’re not going to get too much out of a 10 if you’re remotely asking him to track left wingers back into deep positions. He should be doing more across the front line in pressing, that’s agreed.

He doesnt press and he doesnt really drop into a decent shape too well, he regularly failed to block the passing lane into their midfield also. Odobert definitely isnt making those runs either, my main criticism of him yesterday was his complete unwillingness to exploit the gaping spaces in behind on that side and offer a very easy ball through to him, it was on time and time again first half and every single time he refused to make that sprint in behind. It was bone idle from Odobert, he just wants it to feet so he can dribble which will only take him so far.

[helmclaret]

He’s got bags of talent and I think he’ll get better and better.

He’s come from and relative low standard and this is his first season in the PL.

We don’t have anyone in midfield who can find him often enough with quality in to feet or on the turn.

[Goliath]

He’s got bags of talent and I think he’ll get better and better.

He’s come from and relative low standard and this is his first season in the PL.

We don’t have anyone in midfield who can find him often enough with quality in to feet or on the turn.

Hehad it into his feet so much yesterday second half when they were completely exposed and we were breaking. He then went on to make a pigs ear of it nearly every time

[Bigvince]

I like him, once he gets used to playing at this level he’ll be a fantastic player. Also think there’ll be plenty of teams after his services if or when we’re relegated.

[Belgianclaret]

One of our best players - great workrate and gets into good positions - knows how to finish and will get even better

Those who don't see this are probably the same who were slating Defour when we bought him

[claretspice]

Or maybe Foster, Odobert/ Koleosho etc are the runners in behind and he’s the player who needs to drop and link play? You’re not going to get too much out of a 10 if you’re remotely asking him to track left wingers back into deep positions. He should be doing more across the front line in pressing, that’s agreed.

Which is the precise point I made about Amdouni's defending. Of course the fact Al Dakhil had an overload against him was because Odobert wasn't tracking the wing back (and Edwards cleverly deployed Townsend to make the extra man) but the reason that was such a problem was that both Barkley and Osho (right centre back) were routinely in space to feed them. As a 10, Amdouni either has to lock onto one or the other to cut the passing lanes down, not amble around affecting neither.

I also didn't think he did enough in possession (and his movement exasperates me at times - too static), but that's a secondary issue. It isnt just him- this team has a cultural problem that at any given time it has two passengers on the pitch out of possession. It was an issue for the goal because Tresor lost put too easily initially and then Brunn Larsen's attempt to stop the cross was appalling. I can cut some slack for thr fact they were still getting up to pace but they have to do the basics of will and effort and discipline better.

[Murger]

One of our best players - great workrate and gets into good positions - knows how to finish and will get even better

Those who don't see this are probably the same who were slating Defour when we bought him

Who slated Defour? Stop making up arguments.

[claretspice]

One of our best players - great workrate and gets into good positions - knows how to finish and will get even better

Those who don't see this are probably the same who were slating Defour when we bought him

This is simply not true.

[boyyanno]

One of our best players - great workrate and gets into good positions - knows how to finish and will get even better

Those who don't see this are probably the same who were slating Defour when we bought him

Did anyone slate Defour?

There was widespread jubilation when he signed from what I remember.

[RVclaret]

It’s a bit unfair to call him lazy or not working hard. I personally think 1. It’s playing to instructions not to just chase after everything and drop off a bit 2. Not adapted to the intensity yet (he’s shattered at 65 minutes every match) 3. He was playing with 2 broken fingers last night I believe. The main one here is 2, he’s come from a ball dominant Basel team in a far less intense league, even international football, where he’s done well, is a slow pace.

I’ll also again disagree with claretspice’s notion that his movement isn’t good, he seems to find more space than anyone else, should have had an assist last night and probably scores a simple 2nd if Foster had picked him out.

[claretspice]

It’s a bit unfair to call him lazy or not working hard. I personally think 1. It’s playing to instructions not to just chase after everything and drop off a bit 2. Not adapted to the intensity yet (he’s shattered at 65 minutes every match) 3. He was playing with 2 broken fingers last night I believe. The main one here is 2, he’s come from a ball dominant Basel team in a far less intense league, even international football, where he’s done well, is a slow pace.

I’ll also again disagree with claretspice’s notion that his movement isn’t good, he seems to find more space than anyone else, should have had an assist last night and probably scores a simple 2nd if Foster had picked him out.

I agree that in part it's a question of him adapting from a different league but that isn't the whole story. As for his movement, we've done this before: his movement is intermittently excellent, particularly in the very final third. But he doesn't make enough runs in the build up to provide outlets for his team mates earlier in our move or to help relieve pressure and create space for others. That team play stuff he's leaving to Foster in particular. Thar was exemplified by players shouting at him for not doing it last night.

Is it instructions? Could be and certainly an element is cultural which starts with the manager. But it is odd because but is a world away from the brand Kompany offered 18 months ago when he arrived, and which gave us success last season.

[gandhisflipflop]

I have been a fan of Amdouni and defended him but I thought he had his worst game for us last night despite scoring.

[quoonbeatz]

He's clearly a decent player, it's the application side that really needs work. He has a very prevalent trait of losing the ball and remonstrating with himself instead of chasing to try and win it back - see the Spurs winner last week and 3 or 4 occasions last night. We need to be battling for our lives and he isn't.

[Spijed]

But it is odd because but is a world away from the brand Kompany offered 18 months ago when he arrived, and which gave us success last season.

Although isn't that partly down to the fact that Championship players made it far easier for our players to make those runs?

It could be said that we haven't abandoned what we were doing so well, just that we are no longer capable of getting behind teams in the same way, due to the quality of the opposition.

Thus we now have to scramble around, looking for alternatives.

[KRBFC]

I think if you’re criticising a number 10 type player for not running around like a headless chicken and making the same runs in behind as our striker Foster you’re not quite understanding the role of a number 10.

Go watch Mesut Ozil, David Silva, James Rodriguez, Martin Odegaard play football.

The question wether we can carry a player like that is an entirely different question.

[MDWat]

I think the criticism is that he’s not pressing the area of the pitch you would expect a number 10 to. Spice has called it; Barkley particularly was the free option every time and it was Amdouni’s job to block the passing lane to stop the ball getting to him.

That’s fair criticism and a part of his game he needs to improve. He is technically excellent and picks up some brilliant spaces at the very right end of the pitch. He still needs to adapt though.

[RVclaret]

I don’t think he’s playing as a 10. The off the ball shape is a 4-4-2, its completely clear to see. Surely I’m not the only one seeing this? Look at any heat maps. Not playing as a 10, he’s more advanced than Foster!

[CoolClaret]

I don’t think he’s playing as a 10. The off the ball shape is a 4-4-2, its completely clear to see. Surely I’m not the only one seeing this? Look at any heat maps. Not playing as a 10, he’s more advanced than Foster!

Now look at the passing map and positioning against Spurs...

[Belgianclaret]

Did anyone slate Defour?

There was widespread jubilation when he signed from what I remember.

Maybe I used the wrong terminology. He wasn’t slated immediately after we bought him, but read back to the time he was left out by Dyche after he was (wrongly) hooked at half time during the West Brom fiasco.
The so-called Irish Ronaldinho Jeff Hendrick -a player I never rated - was preferred by Dyche and it took until the next season for Dyche to give him another chance. The Defour - Cork combination took us up to 7th that season.

[helmclaret]

I agree that in part it's a question of him adapting from a different league but that isn't the whole story. As for his movement, we've done this before: his movement is intermittently excellent, particularly in the very final third. But he doesn't make enough runs in the build up to provide outlets for his team mates earlier in our move or to help relieve pressure and create space for others. That team play stuff he's leaving to Foster in particular. Thar was exemplified by players shouting at him for not doing it last night.

Is it instructions? Could be and certainly an element is cultural which starts with the manager. But it is odd because but is a world away from the brand Kompany offered 18 months ago when he arrived, and which gave us success last season.

I disagree with this. He makes a lot of moves where our midfield decide to play a safe pass back instead of playing forward. We don’t have the quality in the centre of the pitch to play the ball forward often enough. The amount of times he pulls of his marker and getting into small
pockets and isn’t found is ridiculous. Yet he gets pulled up for his lack of work rate and defending.

[Belgianclaret]

To question Tresor in the first place and JBL in the second place seems acceptable. But even then our goalie comes to collect an average cross and gets fouled in doing so.
To bring Amdouni into this enquiry is over the top

[JohnDearyMe]

Maybe I used the wrong terminology. He wasn’t slated immediately after we bought him, but read back to the time he was left out by Dyche after he was (wrongly) hooked at half time during the West Brom fiasco.
The so-called Irish Ronaldinho Jeff Hendrick -a player I never rated - was preferred by Dyche and it took until the next season for Dyche to give him another chance. The Defour - Cork combination took us up to 7th that season.

Agree with much of what you're saying but in fairness Hendrick also contributed to the 7th placed finish

[helmclaret]

Hendrick played a big part of that.

[Quickenthetempo]

I think the criticism is that he’s not pressing the area of the pitch you would expect a number 10 to. Spice has called it; Barkley particularly was the free option every time and it was Amdouni’s job to block the passing lane to stop the ball getting to him.

That’s fair criticism and a part of his game he needs to improve. He is technically excellent and picks up some brilliant spaces at the very right end of the pitch. He still needs to adapt though.

Too press the area Barkley was in would mean starting in a midfield position and running forward. He operates further forward.
His and Fosters position when blocking passing lanes from opposition short goal kicks are far too close together, but that's down to coaching.

[MDWat]

I disagree with this. He makes a lot of moves where our midfield decide to play a safe pass back instead of playing forward. We don’t have the quality in the centre of the pitch to play the ball forward often enough. The amount of times he pulls of his marker and getting into small
pockets and isn’t found is ridiculous. Yet he gets pulled up for his lack of work rate and defending.

You’ve nailed the problem here - central midfield; especially when Berge isn’t available.

[Belgianclaret]

Hendrick played a big part of that.

Fair enough, it’s a game of opinions

A gulf in class between those two if you ask me.
Hendrick certainly made the most of the team’s success to do diddly squat after that

[claretspice]

I think if you’re criticising a number 10 type player for not running around like a headless chicken and making the same runs in behind as our striker Foster you’re not quite understanding the role of a number 10.

Go watch Mesut Ozil, David Silva, James Rodriguez, Martin Odegaard play football.

The question wether we can carry a player like that is an entirely different question.

I think we've reached the point of people advancing non sequiturs in order to keep the argument alive. Noone is suggesting Amdouni run around like a headless chicken. The suggestion he should press and track consistently and with discipline. Noone is suggesting he should make the same runs as Foster. The suggestion though is that he should be more dynamic off the ball to help the team.

Of the players you cite, two did all of that - Silva and Odegaard. Which is why they fulfilled their potential. Odegaard works hard enough to play as an 8, not a 10 - as did Silva. And Silva in particular absolutely never stopped moving when City had the ball.

[BabylonClaret]

He's our top scorer now isn't he with 4?

Well he's played every game for more or less 90 each time.

Our attack is the worst in the league and without the 5 goals against Sheffield would be on 16 goals for. That is utter shite considering we have a superstar like Amdouni pulling the strings for us going forward

[helmclaret]

Fair enough, it’s a game of opinions

A gulf in class between those two if you ask me.
Hendrick certainly made the most of the team’s success to do diddly squat after that

I wasn’t Hendrick’s biggest fan, but he could play across the midfield and slightly higher up if needed. He was a genuine PL player at the time.

Right now we probably have 2 players that are PL quality.

[claretspice]

I disagree with this. He makes a lot of moves where our midfield decide to play a safe pass back instead of playing forward. We don’t have the quality in the centre of the pitch to play the ball forward often enough. The amount of times he pulls of his marker and getting into small
pockets and isn’t found is ridiculous. Yet he gets pulled up for his lack of work rate and defending.

I did a case study from the game at Brighton on this to show this just isn't true. He made one run right at the start of the move that led to our goal, didn't get the ball and then didn't make a single other movement to try and disrupt his marker until Odobert had pulled the trigger. Not one in about 20 seconds.

[claretspice]

Too press the area Barkley was in would mean starting in a midfield position and running forward. He operates further forward.
His and Fosters position when blocking passing lanes from opposition short goal kicks are far too close together, but that's down to coaching.

Well, under Dyxhe we played a 442 and I absolutely guarantee that the second striker (often Barnes) would've locked onto Barkley. Its not the case that only a midfielder can do that sort of work. But in any event even if we were happy for Amdouni to operate further forward and leave Barkley free, the lack of pressure on their centre halves - particularly the right sided one who could clearly pass - was a major problem. We had 4 of the front 6 attempting to press and 2 and shut down and 2 (1 a naive kid) not doing it. Recipe for problems.

[burnleymik]

I think we've reached the point of people advancing non sequiturs in order to keep the argument alive. Noone is suggesting Amdouni run around like a headless chicken. The suggestion he should press and track consistently and with discipline. Noone is suggesting he should make the same runs as Foster. The suggestion though is that he should be more dynamic off the ball to help the team.

Of the players you cite, two did all of that - Silva and Odegaard. Which is why they fulfilled their potential. Odegaard works hard enough to play as an 8, not a 10 - as did Silva. And Silva in particular absolutely never stopped moving when City had the ball.

Wasting your time using reason with someone who cannot see past the end of their nose.

[123EasyasBFC]

The same things people are criticising Amdouni for in the second half, foster was the exact same in second half, nothing stuck to either of them

[helmclaret]

I did a case study from the game at Brighton on this to show this just isn't true. He made one run right at the start of the move that led to our goal, didn't get the ball and then didn't make a single other movement to try and disrupt his marker until Odobert had pulled the trigger. Not one in about 20 seconds.

‘Simply isn’t true…’

Why would I make it up??

[Quickenthetempo]

Well, under Dyxhe we played a 442 and I absolutely guarantee that the second striker (often Barnes) would've locked onto Barkley. Its not the case that only a midfielder can do that sort of work. But in any event even if we were happy for Amdouni to operate further forward and leave Barkley free, the lack of pressure on their centre halves - particularly the right sided one who could clearly pass - was a major problem. We had 4 of the front 6 attempting to press and 2 and shut down and 2 (1 a naive kid) not doing it. Recipe for problems.

Modern formations when defending the oppositions half, always look like a fielder in cricket trying to cover two positions but doing the job of none.

As for Barnes locking on to a deep lying midfielder, he used to run around 5 yards behind play.

No Burnley team I have seen have ever been able to cope with Barkley. He always runs the game against us. Usually a bit further forward which makes him more dangerous though.