I've just been asked the following question: How many starts were made by promotion winning players in the next season in the Premier League?

I've just looked at it

2009/10 - 261, more than 30 from Jensen (38), Elliott (34), Alexander (33)
2014/15 - 302, more than 30 from Heaton (38), Shackell (38), Trippier (38), Arfield (36), Jones (36), Ings (35), Mee (32)
2016/17 - 330, more than 30 from Ward (37), Lowton (36), Heaton (35), Keane (35), Mee (34), Boyd (33)

Currently, after 26 games
2023/24 - 139, more than 20 from Brownhill (22)

That ends today's daft stat.

Questionable man-management skills. Our promotion winners did nothing wrong.

I honestly believe there are contractual stipulations as to why some players are playing.

Interesting to see the number of appearances from the promotion winning goalkeeper and back four in the first season we stayed up

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 11:29 am

I've just been asked the following question: How many starts were made by promotion winning players in the next season in the Premier League?

I've just looked at it

2009/10 - 261, more than 30 from Jensen (38), Elliott (34), Alexander (33)
2014/15 - 302, more than 30 from Heaton (38), Shackell (38), Trippier (38), Arfield (36), Jones (36), Boyd (35), Ings (35), Mee (32)
2016/17 - 330, more than 30 from Ward (37), Lowton (36), Heaton (35), Keane (35), Mee (34), Boyd (33)

Currently, after 26 games
2023/24 - 139, more than 20 from Brownhill (22)

That ends today's daft stat.

I wonder how much those figures would have changed had dyche or coyle had a decent budget to work with?

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 12:00 pm

Interesting to see the number of appearances from the promotion winning goalkeeper and back four in the first season we stayed up

Need to be careful when comparing the 2. We had a highly coveted young centre back in Keane and a player who had premier league experience at centre back.
We also had PL experience at right back, left back and in goal and couldn't afford any improvements on them.

This season we had basically 0 PL experience in any of those positions bar Taylor and a few appearances for Roberts. If anything it points out to me we probably had a much bigger task than we realised in the Summer.

Nori1958 wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 12:07 pm

I wonder how much those figures would have changed had dyche or coyle had a decent budget to work with?

I bet Dyche wouldn't have spent big on a new goalkeeper to replace Heaton.
Could also argue how much the stats would change if Kompany gave some credit to how good the squad he already had was

Goliath wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 12:09 pm

Need to be careful when comparing the 2. We had a highly coveted young centre back in Keane and a player who had premier league experience at centre back.
We also had PL experience at right back, left back and in goal and couldn't afford any improvements on them.

This season we had basically 0 PL experience in any of those positions bar Taylor and a few appearances for Roberts. If anything it points out to me we probably had a much bigger task than we realised in the Summer.

We didn't replace any of those positions with experience either though that's the strange thing

Quite interesting stats and possibly/probably why we are really struggling.

bfcjg wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 12:39 pm

Quite interesting stats and possibly/probably why we are really struggling.

The "promotion winners" not getting game time isn't necessarily a problem in itself IF the personnel recruited are a clear and obvious upgrade capable of giving the extra needed for the higher league. They're not! And in several cases they are a fairly obvious downgrade. (The obvious exception imo is Koleosho who definitely looks to have something "extra" which makes his injury all the more frustrating. Not that one player is going to make that much difference though.)

Consistency builds a team ethos....

bumba wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 12:35 pm

We didn't replace any of those positions with experience either though that's the strange thing

We cant afford the wages

dandeclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:09 pm

Consistency builds a team ethos....

They have to be good enough first.

Goliath wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:16 pm

They have to be good enough first.

Plenty of players on the list above, as individuals were deemed not good enough. Arfield, Lowton, Jones, Boyd, Ward - all faced into teams that had them regularly needing being replaced with NEW in the desired XI's around transfer windows.

The team needs to be good enough.... being better than the sum of it's parts, allowing the exceptional individuals to deliver their skills.

Man management doesn’t exist it seems, we just freeze players out at the slightest issue.

If it did our £12m striker wouldn’t be on loan in Germany when we can’t hit a barn door.

dandeclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:24 pm

Plenty of players on the list above, as individuals were deemed not good enough. Arfield, Lowton, Jones, Boyd, Ward - all faced into teams that had them regularly needing being replaced with NEW in the desired XI's around transfer windows.

The team needs to be good enough.... being better than the sum of it's parts, allowing the exceptional individuals to deliver their skills.

All of those players were signed at Championship level and we basically couldnt afford to replace a full squad so had to go with them. Id argue Boyd, Jones and to a lesser extent Arfield proved that they werent good enough for the Premier League but they were experienced and hardworking.

There's just too many that arent good enough, however much we play them that will continue to be the case. From what ive seen the selection and tactics have been pretty consistent since around the Arsenal away game. Its not made a jot of difference

Interesting example though as thinking about it all 4 left on a free transfer, thats not really sustainable and was part of the problem. We werent really generating enough income from transfers to refresh the team. The new approach is trying to avoid that and sign players that we can move on for a profit.

dandeclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:24 pm

Plenty of players on the list above, as individuals were deemed not good enough. Arfield, Lowton, Jones, Boyd, Ward - all faced into teams that had them regularly needing being replaced with NEW in the desired XI's around transfer windows.

The team needs to be good enough.... being better than the sum of it's parts, allowing the exceptional individuals to deliver their skills.

I find it hard to fathom that Burnley fans after watching Dyche for 9.5 seasons and see him squeeze every last drop out of players will now suggest that large swathes of a 101 point Champ winning team isn't good enough having wholesale changes is a sound strategy, then use any excuse other than the simple one that the manager hasn't gotten enough out of the resources he has and could be argued that he's made poor use of the resources made available to him - which is even worse.

We missed that promotion bounce with the players that brought us up

Goliath wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:39 pm

All of those players were signed at Championship level and we basically couldnt afford to replace a full squad so had to go with them. Id argue Boyd, Jones and to a lesser extent Arfield proved that they werent good enough for the Premier League but they were experienced and hardworking.

There's just too many that arent good enough, however much we play them that will continue to be the case. From what ive seen the selection and tactics have been pretty consistent since around the Arsenal away game. Its not made a jot of difference

Interesting example though as thinking about it all 4 left on a free transfer, thats not really sustainable and was part of the problem. We werent really generating enough income from transfers to refresh the team. The new approach is trying to avoid that and sign players that we can move on for a profit.

What does sustainable mean? In 10 years the club was run profitably. In 10 years, there 8 years in the premier league, and a championship winning season? In 10 years, there was enough money generated to pay for a new state of the art training ground.

I must have a different view of what sustainable means though.

CoolClaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:41 pm

I find it hard to fathom that Burnley fans after watching Dyche for 9.5 seasons and see him squeeze every last drop out of players will now suggest that large swathes of a 101 point Champ winning team isn't good enough having wholesale changes is a sound strategy, then use any excuse other than the simple one that the manager hasn't gotten enough out of the resources he has and could be argued that he's made poor use of the resources made available to him - which is even worse.

Dyches first promotion team were also immediately relegated quite comfortably. Obviosuly not quite as spectacularly but if i remember rightly we went about 10 or 11 games before we won our first game. So the strategy of keeping that same team didnt work. That was the other extreme, Kompany deserves time to find that balance.

Goliath wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:53 pm

Dyches first promotion team were also immediately relegated quite comfortably. Obviosuly not quite as spectacularly but if i remember rightly we went about 10 or 11 games before we won our first game. So the strategy of keeping that same team didnt work. That was the other extreme, Kompany deserves time to find that balance.

Wasn't for the lack of trying though, but yes a learning curve

Goliath wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:53 pm

Dyches first promotion team were also immediately relegated quite comfortably. Obviosuly not quite as spectacularly but if i remember rightly we went about 10 or 11 games before we won our first game. So the strategy of keeping that same team didnt work. That was the other extreme, Kompany deserves time to find that balance.

That Matty Taylor penalty miss and Leicester going up the other end and bagging is what did us - huge 6 point swing. Very different to what we've seen this season, the situations aren't remotely similar.

It was very close to working - close enough to give you confidence that with another crack at the whip and a few more players we could maybe do it.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 11:29 am

I've just been asked the following question: How many starts were made by promotion winning players in the next season in the Premier League?

I've just looked at it

2009/10 - 261, more than 30 from Jensen (38), Elliott (34), Alexander (33)
2014/15 - 302, more than 30 from Heaton (38), Shackell (38), Trippier (38), Arfield (36), Jones (36), Boyd (35), Ings (35), Mee (32)
2016/17 - 330, more than 30 from Ward (37), Lowton (36), Heaton (35), Keane (35), Mee (34), Boyd (33)

Currently, after 26 games
2023/24 - 139, more than 20 from Brownhill (22)

That ends today's daft stat.

Regarding 2014-15 I thought that we signed Boyd in the Summer of 2014 and he wasn't part of the 2013-14 promotion season.

When we went up with Dyche, our best players hadn't been on loan either, which is a factor. There's more gone wrong than that, but after Forest went up with a load of loan stars, they spent £150m and just about made it. Tella, Maatsen and Harwood Bellis were all big players for us.

I probably agree though, the way some others have been sidelined this season is a bit mystifying.

It’s all just bizarre.

NottsClaret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 2:11 pm

When we went up with Dyche, our best players hadn't been on loan either, which is a factor. There's more gone wrong than that, but after Forest went up with a load of loan stars, they spent £150m and just about made it. Tella, Maatsen and Harwood Bellis were all big players for us.

I probably agree though, the way some others have been sidelined this season is a bit mystifying.

They were and the manager opted for two different players than two of them listed.

Forest also scraped up through the playoffs and hadn't been in the PL for 20+ years, we had just spent 6 years in there and had better existing players in the squad.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 12:00 pm

Interesting to see the number of appearances from the promotion winning goalkeeper and back four in the first season we stayed up

I assume you are of the opinion Muric should have started the season too? Or at the very least should have come in to replace Trafford months ago?

Anonymous Claret wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 2:09 pm

Regarding 2014-15 I thought that we signed Boyd in the Summer of 2014 and he wasn't part of the 2013-14 promotion season.

We did, and on the last day of the window. I've removed him from that list but I hadn't included him in the total.

StayingDown4Ever wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 2:21 pm

I assume you are of the opinion Muric should have started the season too? Or at the very least should have come in to replace Trafford months ago?

Neither. I wasn't offering any opinions but just posting a stat that I'd been asked for.

Game against Cardiff at the end of last season included - Twine, Maatsen, Barnes, Harwood Bellis, Peacock Farrell, Zaroury, Roberts all of whom are no longer at the club. Vincent has made mistakes however he cant play players who aren't here.

Goliath wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:14 pm

We cant afford the wages

Why not we signed Redmond

johnalexander wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 3:55 pm

Game against Cardiff at the end of last season included - Twine, Maatsen, Barnes, Harwood Bellis, Peacock Farrell, Zaroury, Roberts all of whom are no longer at the club. Vincent has made mistakes however he cant play players who aren't here.

He chose to dispense with five of the seven you mention

bumba wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 3:57 pm

Why not we signed Redmond

Hed been in Turkey for a year and clearly didnt really command much Premier league interest. Its fairly obvious we are one of the lowest payers in the league.

johnalexander wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 3:55 pm

Game against Cardiff at the end of last season included - Twine, Maatsen, Barnes, Harwood Bellis, Peacock Farrell, Zaroury, Roberts all of whom are no longer at the club. Vincent has made mistakes however he cant play players who aren't here.

And only Maatsen if Premier League level who we tried to sign. I thought Zaroury could be but looking at his performances for hull and for us since Xmas, Kompany might have been right on that one.