Got to make sense surely ? /..

Still not sure where I stand with it, I need to listen to both sides really to form a view.
It’s a really sensitive subject

If you have full capacity & suffering immense terminal pain you should be given the right to decide & assisted.

I agree with Jakub.

....I’m going for a lie-down.

I think we should have it with obvious caveats, not compulsory etc.

I know we’re having a bad season but perhaps a little hasty.

I had a client that went to Switzerland. She had cancer. Knew what she was doing, and no pressure or obligation to sway the decision. I don't have that much of an issue with it in those cases.

However, those with bossy daughters who answer questions for them are rather a different matter. As soon as a son or daughter mentions anything along the lines of "needing control", then that's an alarm bell.

Where the rules need changing sooner than later is for the part closer to end of life. It's too late to jet off to helvetia by then. You end up with people that want to go, that you would ask to be put down if it was your cat or dog, yet it's illegal to help them on their way. People starving to death in agony, dying a nasty death with cancer et al, those that can't take on fluids, those that think that it would be good if the bastardsknock Newcastle out of the cup. There should be a system in place to help them stop their pain.

With the right checks and balances - I'm 100% in favour.

Howling here…. Cheers swizzle

As for the subject, yeah it should be an option. Surely a civilised, intelligent society could manage to make it work, with zero chance of abuse?

And therein lies the problem with it.

Greenmile wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:04 pm

I agree with Jakub.

....I’m going for a lie-down.

Me too!

Seems a bit strange you can put you pet to sleep when time is up and in pain but not your gran ? ….

Almost unthinkable in todays world that the terminally ill can’t be allowed die on their own terms with a degree of dignity. While this would need strict governance surely only the minuscule bible thumping lot would oppose it .

Carlos the Great wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:55 pm

Got to make sense surely ? /..

A resounding yes, but with the right safeguards put in place.

It hasn’t been made legal in this country mainly because Bishops in the Lords don’t want it.

Switzerland is one option at the moment.

I started taking a serious interest about 20 years and met the fella who is[was the main man in Switzerland.

100% in favour

Anyone remember Dian Pretty?

Going through this at the moment and it’s a really difficult subject.
My mother has Parkinson’s and it’s at an advanced stage.
A year ago she joined dignitas with a view to assisted suicide. She wanted family to go and be with her.
My daughter flatly refused as did my step sister.
Whilst my mum was reflecting on that her condition rapidly got worse.
She is now at a point she could not travel so it’s now not an option.

A few months ago we went to the Parkinson specialist who said at some point soon the drugs will stop working and then it’s palliative care.
She is in an amazing care home Rossendale house in Burnley.

So the future in the next few months is the drugs stop working and she literally is left to starve to death as she will be unable to swallow.
All the while being in full cognitive ability.

She should be able to choose to go, it’s madness.

Greenmile wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:04 pm

I agree with Jakub.

....I’m going for a lie-down.

You'll feel better when he suggests the the method used is decided by a public vote.

Definitely in favour with the correct safeguards in place. Your own existence should be a matter for yourself, not for other people to tell you what to do.

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:45 pm

Going through this at the moment and it’s a really difficult subject.
My mother has Parkinson’s and it’s at an advanced stage.
A year ago she joined dignitas with a view to assisted suicide. She wanted family to go and be with her.
My daughter flatly refused as did my step sister.
Whilst my mum was reflecting on that her condition rapidly got worse.
She is now at a point she could not travel so it’s now not an option.

A few months ago we went to the Parkinson specialist who said at some point soon the drugs will stop working and then it’s palliative care.
She is in an amazing care home Rossendale house in Burnley.

So the future in the next few months is the drugs stop working and she literally is left to starve to death as she will be unable to swallow.
All the while being in full cognitive ability.

She should be able to choose to go, it’s madness.

sorry to read that mate.

My brother is a doctor and when my mother was dying he had the technique to keep her alive and although his intentions were honourable it was not my mothers request or desire and persuaded my brother to let her go … so by him not doing his best … is that assisted ? .. it’s a very delicate situation in many cases

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:45 pm

Going through this at the moment and it’s a really difficult subject.
My mother has Parkinson’s and it’s at an advanced stage.
A year ago she joined dignitas with a view to assisted suicide. She wanted family to go and be with her.
My daughter flatly refused as did my step sister.
Whilst my mum was reflecting on that her condition rapidly got worse.
She is now at a point she could not travel so it’s now not an option.

A few months ago we went to the Parkinson specialist who said at some point soon the drugs will stop working and then it’s palliative care.
She is in an amazing care home Rossendale house in Burnley.

So the future in the next few months is the drugs stop working and she literally is left to starve to death as she will be unable to swallow.
All the while being in full cognitive ability.

She should be able to choose to go, it’s madness.

Really sorry to read that Lowbank - thoughts are with you and especially your mother;

As for the OP, to me it's a no-brainer on the provision that it can be properly regulated and has sound practice/process.

It should be an option for those who have the mental faculties to decide they want it

No one should be basically forced to live in pain etc

I’ve got an employee who has just been diagnosed with MND and at this very early stage of her diagnosis, she is very much set on this course of action.

Anybody who works in healthcare will certainly know that it isn’t uncommon for an unofficial decision to be made between the staff at the very end of life for a dose of medication ‘to make the patient comfortable’ which often is the catalyst for the inevitable to happen. It is only even done with absolute kindness as a driver.

I had not given it any thought until my step dad died from cancer 10 years ago.
He spent 6 hours gasping for breath in intense pain, it was horrible to watch.
Hence I was happy to go to dignitas with Mum.
But a bad fall 4 months ago took that option away.

Future is uncertain, just hope I don’t see my mum go the same way.

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:27 pm

I had not given it any thought until my step dad died from cancer 10 years ago.
He spent 6 hours gasping for breath in intense pain, it was horrible to watch.
Hence I was happy to go to dignitas with Mum.
But a bad fall 4 months ago took that option away.

Future is uncertain, just hope I don’t see my mum go the same way.

Hope everything goes as well as it possibly can mate.

Penwortham_Claret wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:19 pm

I’ve got an employee who has just been diagnosed with MND and at this very early stage of her diagnosis, she is very much set on this course of action.

Anybody who works in healthcare will certainly know that it isn’t uncommon for an unofficial decision to be made between the staff at the very end of life for a dose of medication ‘to make the patient comfortable’ which often is the catalyst for the inevitable to happen. It is only even done with absolute kindness as a driver.

Not sure it happens now, my step dad had a morphine dose meter, which could only be increased by a very limited number of people, he died in agony as he was on the max allowed dose.

Very complex area fraught with difficulties and unintended consequences if not applied correctly. I think there would be concerns if adopted for non terminal patients as it is in Benelux countries.

With the right safeguards, why deny something so basic.

CoolClaret wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:28 pm

Hope everything goes as well as it possibly can mate.

Thank you.
She has amazing care in the care home.
At this time it’s all we can hope for.

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:01 pm

sorry to read that mate.

Thank you vegas!

Extremely delicate subject, I'm a Christian and so believe life is sacred, but it has to be quality of life, pain relief should always be paramount but medication to keep you alive should be removed at your request when all safeguards have been checked. My mum wanted to join dad,however, the amount of drugs she had to take to keep her alive was ridiculous and delayed her natural passing time and what for ?, more pain and just a shell of the witty,lovely loving person she was and her family distressed watching her wither away, no religion can justify that IMHO.

Sorry to read about your mum Lowbankclaret.

Carlos the Great wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:03 pm

My brother is a doctor and when my mother was dying he had the technique to keep her alive and although his intentions were honourable it was not my mothers request or desire and persuaded my brother to let her go … so by him not doing his best … is that assisted ? .. it’s a very delicate situation in many cases

No. It is illegal to give any unwanted treatment to an adult with capacity to choose for themselves. Doing your best is respecting a patients wishes, not your own ideals

We are half way there with the 'Do not resuscitate' scheme.
My own opinion is, there is too much money in medicine sales keeping older people alive when they have no quality of life. So they will be kept alive.

We certainly need to move away from prolonging death to prolonging life

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:03 pm

We are half way there with the 'Do not resuscitate' scheme.
My own opinion is, there is too much money in medicine sales keeping older people alive when they have no quality of life. So they will be kept alive.

If money is the concern, there is far more money involved in seeing your loved ones paying tens of thousands per year in a nursing home. The temptation for some people (sadly, they do exist) to shuffle their parents off early to save on fees, will be too great to resist.

Plenty of older people have days when they want to die. Then the next day they don't.

It would be wrong to imagine that the idea of assisted dying would be restricted to the most obvious, clear cases. It hasn't been in Canada, or in Belgium/Holland, or in Switzerland, and (just like abortion "only when necessary for the mother's health") it won't be here. 1 in 30 deaths in Canada is by way of assisted suicide, which seems high if it is to be used for terminal patients in extremis, and they are extending it to include people with no physical conditions but who have mental illness.

Someone will make loads of money out of this

Kill unwanted babies, old people, sick people… I think as a Western society we’re already at the bottom of the slippery slope. Just my opinion, and I’m sure those in favor have their own rational different than mine. But I think the world would have missed Stephen Hawking as an example if one day he just decided he’d had enough.

How do we all feel about Canada's approach? Where MAiD (Medically Asssisted in Dying) is being widened to include the mentally ill. Depression is a mental illness. You could argue that addiction is also a mental illness. Just let that sink in, what is actually being advocated. Esther Rancid is being primed as the BBC's poster girl for a one way ticket to Dignitas in Switzerland, as she doesn't want to be a burden on her family. Imagine the thousands of elderly women, who still naively believe she's a national treasure. Despite her silence on Savile, whilst fronting the annual Children in Need cash grab.
There's just something about this whole thing, that doesn't sit right with me.

Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:30 pm

Not sure it happens now, my step dad had a morphine dose meter, which could only be increased by a very limited number of people, he died in agony as he was on the max allowed dose.

I think you need to be in Hospice care to get the final push over the edge.
They gave my Dad a big shot of Fentanyl to send him on his way....it was merciful.

Looks like the majority agree with assisted dying then.

It is a strange process that by caring you prolong someones suffering.

It should be legal and not leave people having to go to places like Switzerland to do this, leaving family members open to charges for helping someone do so by going with them.

First, do no harm. A fine mantra to follow.

We need to requalify what “harm” means in this situation.

Never.

Its like anything else that starts off well meaning. At first the person who's dying will make the choice, then their family, next their doctors, until eventually the goverment will decide. It would be like logans run within 100 years.

No surprise that the anti-abortion nutjobs are the ones opposed to this.

daveisaclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:53 am

No surprise that the anti-abortion nutjobs are the ones opposed to this.

Im an atheist, pro abortion and I think its a terrible idea.

Venkys4eva wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:01 am

Im an atheist, pro abortion and I think its a terrible idea.

I should have given credit to the nutjobs who think it will end up like Logan's Run, fair point

daveisaclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:08 am

I should have given credit to the nutjobs who think it will end up like Logan's Run, fair point

Like the dignatas clinics that started by assisting the terminally ill to die who are now assisting 29 year olds with mild depression and anxiety to end their lives. Next it will be those who have very minor ailments. Everything snowballs, just look at the equality act. A very well meaning piece of legislation thats snowballed into us all having no gender and being able to identify as a carrot.

Venkys4eva wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:22 am

Like the dignatas clinics that started by assisting the terminally ill to die who are now assisting 29 year olds with mild depression and anxiety to end their lives. Next it will be those who have very minor ailments. Everything snowballs, just look at the equality act. A very well meaning piece of legislation thats snowballed into us all having no gender and being able to identify as a carrot.

Venkys4eva wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:22 am

Like the dignatas clinics that started by assisting the terminally ill to die who are now assisting 29 year olds with mild depression and anxiety to end their lives. Next it will be those who have very minor ailments. Everything snowballs, just look at the equality act. A very well meaning piece of legislation thats snowballed into us all having no gender and being able to identify as a carrot.

Textbook example of how to refute allocations of being a nutjob