Booing the knee

[helmclaret]

An incredibly weak argument.

"Today's sporting event will be preceded by a series of political rallies. Those who do not want to listen or witness these please cover your ears a d close you eyes until 3pm precisely."

What series of political rallies took place today?

[Rowls]

Were the Burnley and Brighton players today taking the knee in support of the political movement BLM? Simple question.

The PFA statement says that is why the gesture has been adopted.

It would have been great for more players to have had the courage to stand up against this but it's understandable why they didn't want to stick their necks above the parapet during a period of mass hysteria.

The Galileos and Graham Linehans in society are very rare indeed and they suffer immensely for their actions.

Some footballers and even our own manager might actually be fully supportive of BLM. That's their own prerogative but framing the issue about their personal beliefs is a red herring.

This problem is the mass adoption of BLM by the FA/PFA and the effective imposition of the gesture onto all footballers.

[Rileybobs]

The PFA statement says that is why the gesture has been adopted.

It would have been great for more players to have had the courage to stand up against this but it's understandable why they didn't want to stick their necks above the parapet during a period of mass hysteria.

The Galileos and Graham Linehans in society are very rare indeed and they suffer immensely for their actions.

Some footballers and even our own manager might actually be fully supportive of BLM. That's their own prerogative but framing the issue about their personal beliefs is a red herring.

This problem is the mass adoption of BLM by the FA/PFA and the effective imposition of the gesture onto all footballers.

You yourself have said that the PFA have deleted that statement. So I’ll ask again, did the Burnley and Brighton players today take the knee in support of the political movement BLM? Why won’t you answer this question?

[helmclaret]

Did you not listen to what Ben Mee said it was about?

Mind you, it was probably an incredibly weak argument.

[Rowls]

What series of political rallies took place today?

Please, you were engaging seriously before.

I don't care on jot if engaging me is a game to you or anybody else. I just want the counter argument against BLM to be out their so that society doesn't go through the same mass hysteria again.

But I'm not going to engage with disingenuous silliness like your post above.

[helmclaret]

Don’t engage then!

[Poulton-le-Claret]

You pay to watch the match. They take the knee before the match starts. Your point doesn’t make sense.

Luckily you actually pay for admission to the ground which includes the time before a game. Unless you think the rules only start with the refs whistle? In which case we can have a drink in our seats, stand in front of and block the fire exits etc prior to this time?

[helmclaret]

Can you not just ignore it?

[Rowls]

Did you not listen to what Ben Mee said it was about?

Mind you, it was probably an incredibly weak argument.

It was the dogma that they were all spouting at the time. I listened to it and, guess what?

I disagreed with it profoundly.

As much as I live Ben Mee because if his service to Burnley FC I'm very capable as spotting a bad argument and disagreeing with it.

Feel free to dredge up the arguments that were made at the time I'm favour of BLM and taking the BLM stance. It won't matter if it's the late queen, Gary Neville or Ben Mee making these arguments.

I dont disagree with them because I "didn't listen". I disagree because I listened.

[Rileybobs]

Luckily you actually pay for admission to the ground which includes the time before a game. Unless you think the rules only start with the refs whistle? In which case we can have a drink in our seats, stand in front of and block the fire exits etc prior to this time?

So you do pay to watch the players take the knee then. Just like you pay to watch 8 year old girls have a penalty shoot out at half time.

[Rowls]

Can you not just ignore it?

Yeah I could. We all could.

But then we'd be giving a racially divisive and regressive political activist group, and the hateful ideas they espouse, a free reign in our society.

[helmclaret]

Hahahahaha unbelievable

[Rileybobs]

Note how Rowls won’t even answer a straightforward question because he knows it will topple his disingenuous and dishonest stance.

[helmclaret]

I think it’s fair to say he’s got a keen interest in BLM

[Poulton-le-Claret]

So you do pay to watch the players take the knee then. Just like you pay to watch 8 year old girls have a penalty shoot out at half time.

Yes, that was my argument?

I am paying for admission and I would rather watch football and not social or political standpoints.

[Rowls]

Note how Rowls won’t even answer a straightforward question because he knows it will topple his disingenuous and dishonest stance.

Which question?

I always answer any genuine questions put my way.

[Rileybobs]

Yes, that was my argument?

I am paying for admission and I would rather watch football and not social or political standpoints.

Which is perfectly fine. But buying your ticket doesn’t give you the right to dictate exactly what you do and don’t see.

[Rileybobs]

Which question?

I always answer any genuine questions put my way.

Not sure why I’m having to ask again then… did the Burnley and Brighton players today take the knee in support of the political movement BLM?

[Rowls]

Which is perfectly fine. But buying your ticket doesn’t give you the right to dictate exactly what you do and don’t see.

It is a widely held social convention that overt politics or party politics is not to be mixed with sporting events.

We upheld this very rigourously this country until the BLM mass hysteria swept the country when everybody was locked indoors.

People have a right to expect us to return to the convention and to ditch the semi regular endorsement of a wretched political organisation like BLM.

[Rowls]

Not sure why I’m having to ask again then… did the Burnley and Brighton players today take the knee in support of the political movement BLM?

I've answered this above.

[Rileybobs]

I've answered this above.

No you haven’t. It’s literally a yes/no answer, and one which you’re refusing to give because you know it completely invalidates your argument.

[helmclaret]

I've answered this above.

Where above?

[Poulton-le-Claret]

Which is perfectly fine. But buying your ticket doesn’t give you the right to dictate exactly what you do and don’t see.

Superb, taken you a few posts to realise I am not dictating what has to happen (or not happen) at a game. Just expressing an opinion as a paying customer.

Suppose it was hard to see that up there on your high horse though

[helmclaret]

Probably best for you and Rowls to just ignore it going forward? Only happens a few times a season anyway now.

[Rowls]

Not sure why I’m having to ask again then… did the Burnley and Brighton players today take the knee in support of the political movement BLM?

If, for whatever reason, you need me to rephrase it for you then here is another response for you:

Is supporting BLM this reason the PFA started taking the knee? Yes. Read their own press release for confirmation.

Are the players being physically forced to make the gesture? No

Are they being threatened with legal proceedings if they don't make the gesture? No

Is their union pushing them to make the gesture? Yes.

Is the union coercing them to make the gesture? This is more subjective but I'd say yes.

Is there a very strong social peer pressure on footballers to conform into making the gesture? Yes. There very clearly is.

Are footballers capable of deciding to support BLM themselves? Yes but they are being coerced into it.

Is it morally acceptable to coerce an entirely workforce into showing support for an organisation as controversial, extreme and divisive as BLM? Id say it was reprehensible.

Can we be sure each and every single Burnley and Brighton player are in support of BLM? No, we'd have to ask them and even if we did they'd most likely give an answer they had been primed to give.

[Jellybean]

Banging your head here rowls, these folk will never accept that people dare to think differently to the rhetoric that we're told to follow by every single establishment and mainstream media outlet, so immediately they tag you as racist to try and close down the argument.

Agree it will forever be associated with BLM and while I don't see the point in booing, as you say it's a right as part of our free society that people should be able to do so.

If these blinkered, bigoted folk think the booing is because those fans want to show they're racist then more fool them.

[Rileybobs]

Superb, taken you a few posts to realise I am not dictating what has to happen (or not happen) at a game. Just expressing an opinion as a paying customer.

Suppose it was hard to see that up there on your high horse though

Fair point, and poorly expressed by myself, but it’s not easy to concentrate up here.

[Rileybobs]

If, for whatever reason, you need me to rephrase it for you then here is another response for you:

Is supporting BLM this reason the PFA started taking the knee? Yes. Read their own press release for confirmation.

Are the players being physically forced to make the gesture? No

Are they being threatened with legal proceedings if they don't make the gesture? No

Is their union pushing them to make the gesture? Yes.

Is the union coercing them to make the gesture? This is more subjective but I'd say yes.

Is there a very strong social peer pressure on footballers to conform into making the gesture? Yes. There very clearly is.

Are footballers capable of deciding to support BLM themselves? Yes but they are being coerced into it.

Is it morally acceptable to coerce an entirely workforce into showing support for an organisation as controversial, extreme and divisive as BLM? Id say it was reprehensible.

Can we be sure each and every single Burnley and Brighton player are in support of BLM? No, we'd have to ask them and even if we did they'd most likely give an answer they had been primed to give.

I’m not sure answering a load of different questions that you’ve asked yourself is the same as asking the incredibly straightforward question I’ve asked you.

[Rowls]

Probably best for you and Rowls to just ignore it going forward? Only happens a few times a season anyway now.

Not going to happen online helm my friend.

I ignore it at the match but in terms of challenging BLM online and drawing attention to the risible ideology behind their divisive racist claptrap... Not gonna stop until the charade itself stops.

[helmclaret]

I can’t see anyone on this board or at Turf Moor for that matter supporting BLM?

[CoolClaret]

Rowls still going on about this is akin to the Japanese war veteran, Hiroo Onoda, that never surrendered after WWII had ended and was still hiding in the Philippines until the mid 70s.

Let it go man.

[Rowls]

I’m not sure answering a load of different questions that you’ve asked yourself is the same as asking the incredibly straightforward question I’ve asked you.

The point is this: you're trying to present a complex question for which there are multiple different and related issues, many of which overlap as a simple yes/no question.

My thoughts on the matter have been laid out in detail here for you.

[Rileybobs]

The point is this: you're trying to present a complex question for which there are multiple different and related issues, many of which overlap as a simple yes/no question.

My thoughts on the matter have been laid out in detail here for you.

But I’m not, because it’s not a complex question. It’s a very simple one.

[Rowls]

Rowls still going on about this is akin to the Japanese war veteran, Hiroo Onoda, that never surrendered after WWII had ended and was still hiding in the Philippines until the mid 70s.

Let it go man.

The metaphor falls at the first hurdle.

I'm going on about it because although WWII ended some time ago the taking of the knee is still going on.

I'll stop when the gesture taking in support of BLM stops.

Until that day I'm happy for you to try and poke fun at me. Very few people take up the cause of BLM anymore which was the case when this first started. So it's heartening for me to experience your mild mockery. Heart warming, even.

Thank you!

[Rowls]

But I’m not, because it’s not a complex question. It’s a very simple one.

It's a simple question.

About a complex subject.

I believe complex subjects deserved thoughtful answers.

Yours is just a question designed to entrap me into taking up a simplistic position on a complex subject. It's already been given more respect than it deserved

[Bin Ont Turf]

I boo it mainly because it's another forced upon us American thing which causes division.

Ask the folk who come on t'Turf from the Caribbean or East Timor if they feel unwelcome.

It's a f***ing nonsense.

[Darnhill Claret]

But there is no mention of BLM any more and hasn't been for years apart from those who want to justify booing.

[helmclaret]

You’re making it into a complex issue.

It’s a quick gesture in support of anti racism
and equality. Tie yourself in knots by all means, but it’s that simple.

[Rowls]

I can’t see anyone on this board or at Turf Moor for that matter supporting BLM?

No!

And neither do I.

It's bloody fantastic!

But we shouldn't allow the fact that we're no longer in the midst of mass hysteria allow us to delude ourselves.

If massive support for BLM had not arisen during the hysteria then nobody in football would ever have taken the BLM gesture. Ever. Not once.

But the PFA and the FA decided to do so in support of BLM and helpfully their press release is still available online to prove the fact.

Many people used to openly support BLM during the hysteria and many posted online here on this forum in support of BLM and the gesture taking in support of BLM.

So let's celebrate the fact that nobody on here publicly supporting BLM anymore.

It reminds me of a line in Spike Milligan's autobiography whereby he claims that whenever he got into a taxi in post conflict Germany, the first thing that even taxi driver said to him when they realised he was English was "inch bin ein democrat!"

It turns out that spike never met a single nazi in post WWII Nazi Germany. Funny, eh?

I'm not inclined to go out and root out who got caught up in the hysteria for BLM and denounce them but there were a sizeable, vociferous number who did.

[Rileybobs]

It's a simple question.

About a complex subject.

I believe complex subjects deserved thoughtful answers.

Yours is just a question designed to entrap me into taking up a simplistic position on a complex subject. It's already been given more respect than it deserved

I’m not trying to entrap you, in fact I didn’t even ask you the question directly originally, you chose to respond to my post. Of course it’s a complex subject, but my question is a very simple one - the answer to which would be a good starting point as to whether or not there is any sense in people booing the players taking the knee. The very fact you are clearly not going to answer the question only proves more to me how dishonest your motives are.

[fidelcastro]

How anyone can boo an anti-racism initiative is completely beyond me.

[helmclaret]

No!

And neither do I.

It's bloody fantastic!

But we shouldn't allow the fact that we're no longer in the midst of mass hysteria allow us to delude ourselves.

If massive support for BLM had not arisen during the hysteria then nobody in football would ever have taken the BLM gesture. Ever. Not once.

But the PFA and the FA decided to do so in support of BLM and helpfully their press release is still available online to prove the fact.

Many people used to openly support BLM during the hysteria and many posted online here on this forum in support of BLM and the gesture taking in support of BLM.

So let's celebrate the fact that nobody on here publicly supporting BLM anymore.

It reminds me of a line in Spike Milligan's autobiography whereby he claims that whenever he got into a taxi in post conflict Germany, the first thing that even taxi driver said to him when they realised he was English was "inch bin ein democrat!"

It turns out that spike never met a single nazi in post WWII Nazi Germany. Funny, eh?

I'm not inclined to go out and root out who got caught up in the hysteria for BLM and denounce them but there were a sizeable, vociferous number who did.

With respect, I think you need to move on. It can’t be healthy banging on like this.

[Rowls]

But there is no mention of BLM any more and hasn't been for years apart from those who want to justify booing.

Just not true.

There are plenty on here very much against the booing and who want to believe despite the evidence that taking the knee doesn't have anything to do with BLM.

As I've said before, I find this to be ridiculous given the PFA have still got a press release up confirming that taking the knee was done to show their support for BLM.

[helmclaret]

This press release

[Rowls]

With respect, I think you need to move on. It can’t be healthy banging on like this.

As said before, I'm very happy to receive these mild jibes. It's far preferable to the vicious stuff I suffered during the mass hysteria.

Thank you for your concern about my health, however it isn't necessary. Posting here neither causes me distress nor impacts my health.

I very much enjoy these threads and reminding people of the truth of what happened.

[morpheus2]

I still don't have the answer... As far as I recall the grovelling political knee bend hasn't been used this season until today.... what triggered today's display? Is it OJ's death?

[Rowls]

This press release

Here you go:

https://www.thepfa.com/news/2020/6/12/p ... ves-matter

[helmclaret]

As said before, I'm very happy to receive these mild jibes. It's far preferable to the vicious stuff I suffered during the mass hysteria.

Thank you for your concern about my health, however it isn't necessary. Posting here neither causes me distress nor impacts my health.

I very much enjoy these threads and reminding people of the truth of what happened.

Mild jibes??

You’re the one saying others have ‘incredibly weak arguments!’

[morpheus2]

Here you go:

https://www.thepfa.com/news/2020/6/12/p ... ves-matter

HEY!! Quit with the truth already, it's uncomfortable!

[Rowls]

Mild jibes??

You’re the one saying others have ‘incredibly weak arguments!’

Sorry, I had assumed the segue into your "You OK, Hun?" manner of posting was intended as a mild jibes against me.

Fwiw if raised a chuckle.



MOD: Thread locked. Persistent political references