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Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 12:44 am
by MrEyres
The reason why we have struggled this year and last. We. haven’t or more likely can’t afford to replace the lad.
Everytime he wasn’t in the side in our season under Kompany we struggled .. ie Watford away (0-1) and Rovers, let’s be honest Wharton was bossing the midfield until Jack came on slapped him and Benson did his thing.
We need an enforcer to push us forward, Brownhill likes to feed off this type of player, Cullen is too lightweight for the job but keeps us ticking, whilst Laurent has looked good and has the stature unfortunately lacks the aggression and know. Still a great signing at the cost but is more of a bench option if we want to gain promotion.
Controversial I know so don’t fry me but every successful side has to have the unpleasant side of the game intheir armoury. That’s why under Coyle we moved Alexander into midfield , he had the know how to allow Elliot and obviously Blake to push on from deep.
Is moving Roberts into a similar position an option, he’s got the aggression no doubt and the ball skills but can be positionally suspect.
Only a random thought so if you are a keyboard warrior with personal insults lined up pls don’t bother, again, just a thought.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 12:58 am
by MrEyres
Or C.J once we have a fit for purpose CB fit to replace.
We obviously need attacking options but it doesn’t always come from the front.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 7:40 am
by willsclarets
I'm not sure moving Roberts into midfield does anything for us, tbh. We have Cullen, Laurent, brownhill, hannibal, massengo which should be more than enough to give us a combination to work in this league. I think as he matures, hannibal could be that "enforcer" you talk about. He's brilliant off the ball, and pretty good with it. He just lacks consistency and discipline atm, which at his age you'd expect.
The only other option not in our midfield that could do it I think, is Beyer when fit. He's brilliant at taking us up the pitch 30 yards and in this league at least defensively adept. I still think you'll find most would oppose that too. Can he take the ball on trlhe half turn etc.
I do know what you're saying, but for me we don't have a better answer than our current midfielders provide. What's missing is a balance of control and attack.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 7:45 am
by OssyClaret
Totally agree on your observation on importance of Cork. All the best teams in the world struggle when they are without similar moulds of players.
In no way shape or form is he a similar player to Cork but madness Hannibal can’t get into this side in a deeper role. A level above anything else we’ve got.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 7:47 am
by MDWat
Hannibal is the answer when we play him further back. About time Parker tried it.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 7:49 am
by bfcjg
Totally agree. Hannibal bossed us when he played for Birmingham and last season United,as mentioned play him correctly.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 7:53 am
by ArmchairDetective
I was a big fan of Jack Cork and felt we always played better with him in the team, even in his last year or two with us. One of his best attributes was being able to read the game and game management. Probably the closest we have to him is Cullen but I think Jack was able to drive the team forward when needed, something we don't see as much from Cullen.
We may well have a player in the squad already that could fill that role going forward that we're just yet to see properly. Laurent or Hannibal could be that man if given the chance in a deeper role. I'd be pleasantly surprised if Roberts could demonstrate the attributes I've mentioned above but stranger things have happened.
I do think we miss Cork's intelligence, awareness and ability to act on it.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 8:51 am
by ChorltonCharlie
This is another one of those myths from the promotion season. Cork started only 1 of the last 19 games that season. His only start he was substituted off at half time against 10 men Sheffield United with the score still 0-0. It's his replacement that day of Gudmundsson that's the type of player we're missing far more. VK used him alongside Brownhill in advance of Cullen (and Roberts). JBG had enough about him to have the discipline and energy to play that role, but he also had the natural attacking instincts to find space and drift in behind the back 4.
We're not missing a more defensive midfielder. Defensively we're pretty good and we are one of the best sides in the division for winning the ball further up the pitch. It's creative players centrally we're missing. Players who can take the ball on the half turn and break down well organised defences.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:02 am
by Goliath
Agreed. He was a tremendous player and IMO was streets above Cullen in terms of ability. It's absolute ridiculous to have him at the club but not signed on as a player. He could easily sit in front of the back 4 and do a really good job.
Also he was really unlucky in the promotion season, he was our best player until about December for me when Kompany decided he wanted a more attacking player in there and sacrificed Cork.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:33 am
by warksclaret
Jack Cork was sensational in the year we finished 7th with Defour and Hendrick in midfield. Thats going back about 7 years. Those of the memories I want to remember him by-not the last year or two under Dyche when he was being outmuscled, dispossessed and generally outrun in the Prem. In his two years under VK he was only a bit part player. So glad though he is now on our coaching staff as I think he has immense skills both technically and coaching wise
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:56 am
by Goliath
warksclaret wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:33 am
Jack Cork was sensational in the year we finished 7th with Defour and Hendrick in midfield. Thats going back about 7 years. Those of the memories I want to remember him by-not the last year or two under Dyche when he was being outmuscled, dispossessed and generally outrun in the Prem. In his two years under VK he was only a bit part player. So glad though he is now on our coaching staff as I think he has immense skills both technically and coaching wise
He was our best player when he came back into the side in Dyche's last season. We suddenly started to look a decent side again.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:57 am
by aggi
Goliath wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:02 am
Agreed. He was a tremendous player and IMO was streets above Cullen in terms of ability. It's absolute ridiculous to have him at the club but not signed on as a player. He could easily sit in front of the back 4 and do a really good job.
Also he was really unlucky in the promotion season, he was our best player until about December for me when Kompany decided he wanted a more attacking player in there and sacrificed Cork.
If he was still good enough to be regularly playing for a top-end championship team he would have got a contract somewhere.
The fact he hasn't suggests that he no longer has that ability.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 10:47 am
by Woodleyclaret
Anass Zaroury and a fit Benny are huge misses .They could beat a man for fun and score some great goals.Our current midfielder players are far too hesitate and go back and sideways allowing defenders to set up and easily snuff out our minimal threat. SP needs to encourage our wide men to take on fullbacks get to the byline and whip in crosses.Anthony has the ability but often slows down the play with 30yrd back passes.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 11:47 am
by Silkyskills1
MrEyres wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 12:44 am
Everytime he wasn’t in the side in our season under Kompany we struggled .. ie Watford away (0-1) and Rovers, let’s be honest Wharton was bossing the midfield until Jack came on slapped him and Benson did his thing.
Was Wharton ' bossing the midfield' or is that just another myth? I genuinely can't remember any player standing out that night but I'll take your word for it?
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 11:56 am
by ClaretTony
MrEyres wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 12:44 am
The reason why we have struggled this year and last. We. haven’t or more likely can’t afford to replace the lad.
Everytime he wasn’t in the side in our season under Kompany we struggled .. ie Watford away (0-1) and Rovers, let’s be honest Wharton was bossing the midfield until Jack came on slapped him and Benson did his thing.
We need an enforcer to push us forward, Brownhill likes to feed off this type of player, Cullen is too lightweight for the job but keeps us ticking, whilst Laurent has looked good and has the stature unfortunately lacks the aggression and know. Still a great signing at the cost but is more of a bench option if we want to gain promotion.
Controversial I know so don’t fry me but every successful side has to have the unpleasant side of the game intheir armoury. That’s why under Coyle we moved Alexander into midfield , he had the know how to allow Elliot and obviously Blake to push on from deep.
Is moving Roberts into a similar position an option, he’s got the aggression no doubt and the ball skills but can be positionally suspect.
Only a random thought so if you are a keyboard warrior with personal insults lined up pls don’t bother, again, just a thought.
The stats don't back you up
2022/23
Started 26 - won 17, drew 8, lost 1
Sub 13 - won 8, drew 4, lost 1
Didn't play 7 - won 4, drew 2, lost 1
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:22 pm
by ClaretPete001
Maybe my Math is not working but it looks to me as though those stats do back up the fact that Cork was effective particularly if he played largely when the team was in flux at the start of the season.
But let's be honest the team was so much better than everyone else one player's influence is hard to determine.
Cork had a PL career. I'm not sure Cullen will albeit I think he is a good player and when VK played him properly last season he didn't look out of his depth.
What we are looking is a team that can play in Parker's preferred style and fit strikers of the appropriate quality.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:00 pm
by Goliath
ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:22 pm
Maybe my Math is not working but it looks to me as though those stats do back up the fact that Cork was effective particularly if he played largely when the team was in flux at the start of the season.
But let's be honest the team was so much better than everyone else one player's influence is hard to determine.
Cork had a PL career. I'm not sure Cullen will albeit I think he is a good player and when VK played him properly last season he didn't look out of his depth.
What we are looking is a team that can play in Parker's preferred style and fit strikers of the appropriate quality.
The stats are meaningless because A)the results are similar, we were just a very good side with or without him and B) the sample size of him not playing is too small and doesn't allow for context ie those games might have been easy/difficult fixtures etc.
It's personal opinion but Imo Cork was our best central midfielder and by far superior to Cullen in most aspects.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:45 pm
by ChorltonCharlie
Goliath wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:00 pm
The stats are meaningless because A)the results are similar, we were just a very good side with or without him and B) the sample size of him not playing is too small and doesn't allow for context ie those games might have been easy/difficult fixtures etc.
It's personal opinion but Imo Cork was our best central midfielder and by far superior to Cullen in most aspects.
You are indeed, but worth pointing out one of them was unanimously voted player of the season by the fans and players, the other spent the last 19 games warming the bench.
Cork has been a fantastic servant for the club and in his peak years was clearly a better player, but I don't think we need revisionism from 2 seasons ago.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:06 pm
by Goliath
ChorltonCharlie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:45 pm
You are indeed, but worth pointing out one of them was unanimously voted player of the season by the fans and players, the other spent the last 19 games warming the bench.
Cork has been a fantastic servant for the club and in his peak years was clearly a better player, but I don't think we need revisionism from 2 seasons ago.
Indeed but it was a case of one or the other. If Cullen had been dropped and Cork stayed in then we still would have won the league and Cork may have been player of the season. He was certainly mine until he was dropped.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:39 pm
by ClaretTony
Goliath wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:06 pm
Indeed but it was a case of one or the other. If Cullen had been dropped and Cork stayed in then we still would have won the league and Cork may have been player of the season. He was certainly mine until he was dropped.
I’d totally agree with that. He really was outstanding in the first half of the season.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:11 pm
by ClaretPete001
Goliath wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:06 pm
Indeed but it was a case of one or the other. If Cullen had been dropped and Cork stayed in then we still would have won the league and Cork may have been player of the season. He was certainly mine until he was dropped.
I think Cork, Jay Rod and Brownhill stabilised the team when in the early part of the season.
Jay Rod played a withdrawn number 10 and Brownhill coming late into attacking areas and Cork anchoring the midfield.
It's often hard to assess what players like Cork bring to a team. Easier to judge all action players like Hannibal chasing after a ball but much harder to do it when a lot of the good work is done off the ball.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:12 pm
by helmclaret
We've never replaced John Deary, so God knows how long it will take to find a replacement for Cork...
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:37 pm
by Hipper
Cork was becoming a liability. He was picking up yellow cards almost every game at one point.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:48 pm
by Goliath
Hipper wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:37 pm
Cork was becoming a liability. He was picking up yellow cards almost every game at one point.
How does that make him a liability? How many sending off did he get?
I'd say a lot of them were smart bookings where he stopped counters before they developed
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:50 am
by Hipper
No red cards but as soon as you get a yellow your game must change.
He was taking them 'for the team' but were they often not from his own short comings.
Re: Jack Cork
Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:58 am
by Dark Cloud
Cork and JBG (fit and at their best) would make all the difference to this current team. Even now I believe JBG would have been a key player this season had he stayed and numerous times we've been crying out for 25 minutes of him off the bench.