I don’t watch the U21s but they seem to scoring goals for fun at the moment. Surely there must be one of them worth taking a punt on in the first team? Can’t be any worse than the totally ineffective shambles that passes for our forward line…

Not that I've seen

Westley is the most likely candidate but is still way off being 1st team material.

Surely even an undercooked striker is better than no striker? You never know, they might surprise you. Dwight McNeil only broke through due to an injury crisis…

Just to play devil's advocate here...if the 1st team are really struggling for goals, and the U21s are scoring lots of goals,.yet we're told no-one in the U21s can make the step up...what exactly is the point of the U21s ?

I am beginning to think it's a waste of resource. We've paid fees for some of the U21s, will we see any of them make it to the Championship?

People were complaining that Trafford was being picked in the first team because he wasn’t ready. If young kids are put in the first team and they end up getting abuse, it could potentially ruin their careers.

Paulclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 12:57 pm

People were complaining that Trafford was being picked in the first team because he wasn’t ready. If young kids are put in the first team and they end up getting abuse, it could potentially ruin their careers.

There's plenty of 21 year old players at Championship level and above.

The manager will know whether they are at or close to the level required from seeing them train.

Paulclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 12:57 pm

People were complaining that Trafford was being picked in the first team because he wasn’t ready. If young kids are put in the first team and they end up getting abuse, it could potentially ruin their careers.

I appreciate thinking about player wellbeing, but if you asked one of the u21's whether they'd want a chance of playing in the first team with the risk of receiving criticism I'm sure they'd jump at the chance.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 1:06 pm

There's plenty of 21 year old players at Championship level and above.

And your point is? There are plenty of players around 21 already in the Burnley 1st team. I believe the coaching staff know better than fans when players are ready for the first team. No point in throwing in youngsters who the staff believe aren't ready when it may affect their career.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 12:50 pm

I am beginning to think it's a waste of resource. We've paid fees for some of the U21s, will we see any of them make it to the Championship?

I’ve had this view for years.

What is the point? With PL clubs spending millions upon millions on youth football, why not just sit and pick up the scraps from them clubs. The football league is full of players from PL youth teams that didn’t quite make it at the top level but could possibly one day.

They play/train at better facilities, with better players, better coaches etc etc.

U21s football to senior men’s is like chalk and cheese obviously non are nowhere near the level yet

That Obafemi at Plymouth has scored more goals than any of our strikers this season...

ArmchairDetective wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 1:44 pm

That Obafemi at Plymouth has scored more goals than any of our strikers this season...

With the paucity of attacking options available to is, letting him go out on loan was a very strange decision.

Obafemi has history of causing disharmony at clubs maybe SP thought he was better elsewhere and we are in a strong position to sign Whittaker with Oba in as a make weight in the deal

randomclaret2 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 12:45 pm

Just to play devil's advocate here...if the 1st team are really struggling for goals, and the U21s are scoring lots of goals,.yet we're told no-one in the U21s can make the step up...what exactly is the point of the U21s ?

1. Players in the U21s may be ready/good enough next season.
2. Players who have yet to join the U21s may be good enough in the future.

Leisure wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 12:24 pm

Westley is the most likely candidate but is still way off being 1st team material.

I’m assuming you’re classing Agyei as a first team player rather academy?

If you put Hountondji in the U21s, he would score goals for fun. Usually you would have some progression from U21, to a loan at a lower level. Very rare you get one that goes straight through to the first team

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 5:02 pm

I’m assuming you’re classing Agyei as a first team player rather academy?

No I'm not, because I haven't seen enough of him to make a judgement but possibly the manager does??

Paulclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 1:36 pm

And your point is? There are plenty of players around 21 already in the Burnley 1st team. I believe the coaching staff know better than fans when players are ready for the first team. No point in throwing in youngsters who the staff believe aren't ready when it may affect their career.

My "point" as you put it is that there is no reason to expect that players under 21 years old are not (by age alone) ready for 1st team football, or that they are unduly sensitive to criticism to the point that their careers will be damaged or even ruined. It could be the making of some of them.

ArmchairDetective wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 1:44 pm

That Obafemi at Plymouth has scored more goals than any of our strikers this season...

yes, 2... in 10 games.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 12:50 pm

I am beginning to think it's a waste of resource. We've paid fees for some of the U21s, will we see any of them make it to the Championship?

It’s making money. We’ve sold a good number of players who have come through the academy in recent years. So many playing in the Football League. So I’m not sure what’s being wasted.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:32 pm

It’s making money. We’ve sold a good number of players who have come through the academy in recent years. So many playing in the Football League. So I’m not sure what’s being wasted.

Wouldn't you be chuffed if we actually produced players capable of bolstering the 1st team squad? Then we could save serious money.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:35 pm

Wouldn't you be chuffed if we actually produced players capable of bolstering the 1st team squad? Then we could save serious money.

Of course I would but it is still working and is not costing us as you suggested. If we were to stay out of the Premier League for a while then I’m sure it would start to come in to its own in that sense. Hopefully we won’t need that.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:37 pm

Of course I would but it is still working and is not costing us as you suggested. If we were to stay out of the Premier League for a while then I’m sure it would start to come in to its own in that sense. Hopefully we won’t need that.

Actually I hope we always need to bring young players through, regardless of what league we are in.
TBH, I don't see us getting back to the PL for a while, perhaps this would be the ideal opportunity to bring some young players through.

There seems to be a huge gap in U21 and First team football in general I think. Not many U21 teams win against Div1&2 in these Cup competitions that exist..

JohnMac wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 9:58 pm

There seems to be a huge gap in U21 and First team football in general I think. Not many U21 teams win against Div1&2 in these Cup competitions that exist..

Obviously, because that's whole U21 teams against professional full-time footballers. it doesn't automatically mean that any member of a club's U21s couldn't make it into the senior squad.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 8:00 pm

yes, 2... in 10 games.

Exactly. Twice and many as our top scoring striker

ArmchairDetective wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:33 pm

Exactly. Twice and many as our top scoring striker

Yes, hardly a massive achievement is it?

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 09, 2024 10:33 am

Yes, hardly a massive achievement is it?

Not really sure where this is going but for arguments sake his goals to minutes ratio is better than the highly rated Morgan Whittaker who has 3 goals. And at only 24 he's still a young player with plenty of time to develop.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:12 pm

Obviously, because that's whole U21 teams against professional full-time footballers. it doesn't automatically mean that any member of a club's U21s couldn't make it into the senior squad.

U21's are professional full time footballers though. I appreciate there will be maturity differences but It's the cream of the crop from the bigger clubs still struggling against lower League opposition, not all of whom are that much older.

ArmchairDetective wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 09, 2024 12:39 pm

Not really sure where this is going but for arguments sake his goals to minutes ratio is better than the highly rated Morgan Whittaker who has 3 goals. And at only 24 he's still a young player with plenty of time to develop.

Whittaker isn't playing particularly well this season. TBH, if we can't score with what we have then maybe bring Obafemi back (if allowed) in January

Numbers making an impact in the first team have been thin on the ground but it only takes one to turn a big profit, or even better, make our first team and make a big contribution.

Imagine the uproar if one of the local teams with an under 21 team picked up a gem from Burnley, who would have loved to play for us but the option just wasn’t there.

If it’s washing its face, it’d be stupid not to have a youth set up. Like turning down a free lottery ticket because you might never win.

As for the striker thing, I do think we need another, but you don’t need two hands to count the number of opportunities we’d have created for said striker. Chance creation is the key thing for me, right now.

Paulclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 12:57 pm

People were complaining that Trafford was being picked in the first team because he wasn’t ready. If young kids are put in the first team and they end up getting abuse, it could potentially ruin their careers.

Or on the flip side they come in score goals and their careers take off. Does nobody remember Graham Lancashire?

Paulclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 08, 2024 12:57 pm

People were complaining that Trafford was being picked in the first team because he wasn’t ready. If young kids are put in the first team and they end up getting abuse, it could potentially ruin their careers.

I can’t remember any young kid getting abuse in a Burnley team!

All those lads will be absolutely itching to get in the first team squad.

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 09, 2024 6:49 pm

Or on the flip side they come in score goals and their careers take off. Does nobody remember Graham Lancashire?

Graham Lancashire’s final Burnley goal came exactly one month after his first. He’s not a very good example.

I know Sean Dyche was fuming when he brought on Steven Hewitt in a game and there were lots of groans from the crowd when he misplaced a pass.

ClaretTony wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 09, 2024 7:00 pm

Graham Lancashire’s final Burnley goal came exactly one month after his first. He’s not a very good example.

I know Sean Dyche was fuming when he brought on Steven Hewitt in a game and there were lots of groans from the crowd when he misplaced a pass.

I was being slightly ironic! However surprised he only played a month I thought he was around the squad most of the season! How many did he actually score?

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:58 am

I was being slightly ironic! However surprised he only played a month I thought he was around the squad most of the season! How many did he actually score?

I think I remember him scoring four in a certain away game.

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 10, 2024 2:07 pm

I think I remember him scoring four in a certain away game.

It's getting easier for Lancashire... and it's getting easier for Burnley

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 10, 2024 2:07 pm

I think I remember him scoring four in a certain away game.

Three. At Wrexham in the 91/2 season. He is now Assistant Manager at Workington in the Northern Premier League. Still lives in Padiham.

For those who think we should just throw/try some of our U21's into the 1st team . Food for thought from some interesting EFL Trophy results last night -
Barrow 3 - Aston Villa U21's 0
Lincoln 5 - Man City U21's 0
Notts County 1 - Leicester U21's 0
Salford 3 - Wolves U21's 2
Wigan 1 - Notts Forest U21's 0
Colchester 3 - Arsenal U21's 0
Huddersfield 4 - Man Utd U21's 1

Leisure wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:46 pm

For those who think we should just throw/try some of our U21's into the 1st team . Food for thought from some interesting EFL Trophy results last night -
Barrow 3 - Aston Villa U21's 0
Lincoln 5 - Man City U21's 0
Notts County 1 - Leicester U21's 0
Salford 3 - Wolves U21's 2
Wigan 1 - Notts Forest U21's 0
Colchester 3 - Arsenal U21's 0
Huddersfield 4 - Man Utd U21's 1

Totally understandable that an entire team of U21s would lose these sort of games, "men vs boys" if you like. But does it prove that one or two of the better U21 players shouldn't be up to the demands of senior football at 21 years old?

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:59 pm

Totally understandable that an entire team of U21s would lose these sort of games, "men vs boys" if you like. But does it prove that one or two of the better U21 players shouldn't be up to the demands of senior football at 21 years old?

No it doesn't but it's food for to thought, as I said, and an indication that's it's a big step up. I'm happy to allow our coaching staff decide when players are considered ready and not just throw players in too early (just to respond to the clamour of some fans) and that be possibly.detrimental to their future..

Leisure wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:08 pm

No it doesn't but it's food for to thought, as I said, and an indication that's it's a big step up. I'm happy to allow our coaching staff decide when players are considered ready and not just throw players in too early (just to respond to the clamour of some fans) and that be possibly.detrimental to their future..

i'm sure the management wouldn't allow that.
I do, however, wonder how the system could be improved in terms of better preparing the 21year olds for senior football: is it conditioning, lack of serious competition at U21 level? Genuinely interested in how these young men get a decent standard of experience.
Just read that U21 captain, Will Hugill, has got a loan at Chester.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:49 pm

i'm sure the management wouldn't allow that.
I do, however, wonder how the system could be improved in terms of better preparing the 21year olds for senior football: is it conditioning, lack of serious competition at U21 level? Genuinely interested in how these young men get a decent standard of experience.
Just read that U21 captain, Will Hugill, has got a loan at Chester.

Agree that some of the clubs which our U21's go out to on loan do seem underwhelming but presumably our club feel they are an appropriate stepping stone to help improve our players.

Leisure wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:54 pm

Agree that some of the clubs which our U21's go out to on loan do seem underwhelming but presumably our club feel they are an appropriate stepping stone to help improve our players.

Or is it the best they can get for these young players?
It strikes me that all EFL managers are rightly concerned about poor results ending in their dismissal and are unlikely to take a punt on an unproven youngster.

Leisure wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:46 pm

For those who think we should just throw/try some of our U21's into the 1st team . Food for thought from some interesting EFL Trophy results last night -
Barrow 3 - Aston Villa U21's 0
Lincoln 5 - Man City U21's 0
Notts County 1 - Leicester U21's 0
Salford 3 - Wolves U21's 2
Wigan 1 - Notts Forest U21's 0
Colchester 3 - Arsenal U21's 0
Huddersfield 4 - Man Utd U21's 1

Fascinating, thanks for posting - most insightful post of the thread.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:22 pm

Fascinating, thanks for posting - most insightful post of the thread.

The thing is, it isn't. We should all already be aware that teams like Huddersfield will batter a Man U academy team. I was chatting to my mate at the weekend before these games and we ended up chatting about England friendlies and how they were a million miles away from being pointless. You still learn things from them and it allows teams like Lincoln and Hudds to play fringe players, and experience for the academy teams.

hoosier-daddy wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:31 pm

The thing is, it isn't. We should all already be aware that teams like Huddersfield will batter a Man U academy team. I was chatting to my mate at the weekend before these games and we ended up chatting about England friendlies and how they were a million miles away from being pointless. You still learn things from them and it allows teams like Lincoln and Hudds to play fringe players, and experience for the academy teams.

You have a mate?