Are managers overrated

[Stonehouse]

Looking at the Prem today I think it’s more about the infrastructure of the clubs than the actual manager .Liverpool new manager just carrying after Klipperty and Manure and Spursey carrying on as their previous 3 managers.

[Jakubclaret]

Looking at the Prem today I think it’s more about the infrastructure of the clubs than the actual manager .Liverpool new manager just carrying after Klipperty and Manure and Spursey carrying on as their previous 3 managers.

Without a shadow backing counts for a lot. A true indicator of a managerial strength can results come with restricted capped spending. Let the top managers manage in L1 or even lower with all the constraints side by side in a like for like comparison with the others & judge by tactics alone determining the results on a even playing field it would be very surprising.

[Spijed]

With the way Man City are struggling makes you wonder how Guardiola would do with a smaller budget.

[Dyched]

Depends what the problem is. If it’s a group of good players under performing a change can make a difference. If it’s a group of poor players (Man Utd) then it won’t.

[TheFamilyCat]

On the other hand, what about Aston Villa since Emery took over or Forest with Nuno? Is that just down to the previous managers being bobbins?

[Rileybobs]

If lower league coaches were better than Premier League coaches, then Premier League clubs would hire them for a fraction of the cost.

[Jakubclaret]

If lower league coaches were better than Premier League coaches, then Premier League clubs would hire them for a fraction of the cost.

You have to give them that opportunity to work that out in the first place. I think the OP is referring to the likes of the bigger cartel elite clubs that pretty much dominate.

[Rileybobs]

You have to give them that opportunity to work that out in the first place. I think the OP is referring to the likes of the bigger cartel elite clubs that pretty much dominate.

You really don’t have to give them that opportunity. In the same way you don’t have to see how Premier League players will perform in League 1.

[Jakubclaret]

You really don’t have to give them that opportunity. In the same way you don’t have to see how Premier League players will perform in League 1.

The discussion is centred on managers. Players do drop down & move up all the time it's just more gradual.

[bfcjg]

I think the richest clubs will always have the very best players so it should be relatively easy for their managers to just tweek and make minor changes, unless you get a manager like Ange who's the polar opposite of previous managers like Conte if it works fine but when it doesn't ouch. Managerswho aren't overrated are the minor miracle workers who get every last bit from the players available both talent and effort wise and who can arrange a team to be hard to beat with a threat. Managers at clubs such as Brentford ,Bournemouth Brighton etc and of course Sean Dyche.

[Goliath]

I still think most managers would have relegated everton by now

[willsclarets]

You can't really give the Liverpool example without acknowledging that Klopp himself made a difference no? Doesn't really make sense

[IanMcL]

I still think most managers would have relegated everton by now

Several tried

[IanMcL]

Being foreign is overrated.

[Stalbansclaret]

How motivated the players are is surely a key factor and the players’ view of the manager and willingness to follow their wishes must count for a lot. I doubt Wolves would have won 3-0 at Leicester today if GO’N had remained in charge as it seemed that, for whatever reason, the players had lost their collective discipline and desire to play for the cause.
Where a manager has a clear way of playing (or “philosophy” as the expression nowadays goes) AND the players buy into this then it’s powerful…. SD at Burnley being a classic example. Hence a manager needs both tactical ability and also people skills.

[Woodleyclaret]

Some such as Moyes,Cooper, Ten Hag, Lampard, Rooney,Potter have all been given top billing by the press and owners swallow the hype.

[Jakubclaret]

Being foreign is overrated.

It certainly seems to be. As a nation we seem to have developed a intoxicating preference to anything that appears exotic & unusual & anything similar to john smith it's almost viewed as being suspicious. I'm slowly detaching myself away from profession football & becoming more attracted to amateur football in a grassroots sense.

[dvalley69]

Some such as Moyes,Cooper, Ten Hag, Lampard, Rooney,Potter have all been given top billing by the press and owners swallow the hype.

[Shaggy]

It’s not just the managers but the whole coaching team these days. Certain managers suddenly implode when certain members of staff leave them.. for example Tony Loughlan leaving Burnley and Mr Dyche was snookered from that moment onwards.

[Tall Paul]

Yes, budget is a far bigger factor.

[Jakubclaret]

As an experiment the top 5 managers in league rankings from PL to L1 should do a job transfer to see what happens because some people think it's all about ability managerial nous & others think it's down to finances. I think the likes of pep (not the current best example but historically the cream) would be like a fish out of water.

[CaptainKirk]

With the way Man City are struggling makes you wonder how Guardiola would do with a smaller budget.

Said for years he is over rated.
Any half decent manager could win things with Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Man City.
Love to see him try and win the Premier League with anyone outside the top six.
He's one of the reasons we have to put up with the procession of substitutions every match.
He's the reason football is so slow and boring these days.
He never stops moaning.
Sick of him telling his own players off in the middle of the pitch and even worse, pointing out to the opposition players where they are going wrong. I would slap him if I was the Manager of the team concerned.
Gone at the end of the Season "by mutual consent"
Arse.

[Dressinggown]

I saw a post match interview with Watford manager, Tom Cleverly, on Saturday.

None of the usual media hype, self indulgent bullsh*t that we come to expect from the managers of today.

Cleverly outlined things how they were at the club. He reflected about his team, his players, his decisions and that they were outplayed by a far better side on the day.

He gave credit to the Watford supporters for making the trip up North.

I hope that he has a successful future.

[bumba]

With the way Man City are struggling makes you wonder how Guardiola would do with a smaller budget.

He's always inherited the best squads in the league, a lot of his signings are to be questioned.
Fantastic coach probably the best ever but can he rebuild squads like Fergie did?
Fergie is still a better manager for me.

[bfcjg]

Not sure about managers, however set piece coaches are certainly overrated

[CaptJohn]

I'd certainly give praise to Slot at Liverpool. He followed KK and hasn't made massive changes to the playing squad but has tweaked the system and has them playing far more attacking football which is enjoyable to watch. Well done to him, which is down entirely to his skill as a manager.
As to SP he has been very pragmatic with what players he has available and now has them gelling as potential, promotion candidates. Losing Berge, Odobert, Amdouni, WW, Zaroury, O'Shea and JBG must have tested his resolve but he's just got on with it and we are now seeing the results of his skills as a manager.

[Dressinggown]

Not sure about managers, however set piece coaches are certainly overrated

Set piece coaches ?

Goal kick: Ball to Goalkeeper or Centre Half within the 6 yard box.
Middle of the park: Backwards pass to Centre Half.
Corner: Most likely a poor delivery which fails to beat the first defender or a short ball which allows the defence to reset.
Free kick near the edge of the box: Any man and his dog knows that someone will have a shot.

This is the plan / outcome for most teams.

However,

Occasionally, the players seem to take on their own approach. Flemming's equaliser at Norwich was stunning and looked like a spur of the minute decision.

Then you look at the replays and this was an orchestrated play.

Brownhill made sure that he blocked the nearest defender from closing down Flemming allowing the sublime strike into the corner.

[mdd2]

Managers can make a difference
Look how Dyche transformed us after he took over from Eddie Howe. We stopped leaking goals immediately but also stopped scoring as many
Next season having lost our main striker and signed three freebies plus one loan player and see what we did
And see how we have been since he left.
I also doubt there are many managers that would have kept Everton afloat given the state that club was and is in

[bfcjg]

Set piece coaches ?

Goal kick: Ball to Goalkeeper or Centre Half within the 6 yard box.
Middle of the park: Backwards pass to Centre Half.
Corner: Most likely a poor delivery which fails to beat the first defender or a short ball which allows the defence to reset.
Free kick near the edge of the box: Any man and his dog knows that someone will have a shot.

This is the plan / outcome for most teams.

However,

Occasionally, the players seem to take on their own approach. Flemming's equaliser at Norwich was stunning and looked like a spur of the minute decision.

Then you look at the replays and this was an orchestrated play.

Brownhill made sure that he blocked the nearest defender from closing down Flemming allowing the sublime strike into the corner.

One swallow a summer does not make

[dougcollins]

Set piece coaches ?


Free kick near the edge of the box: Any man and his dog knows that someone will have a shot.

In other words, see who's turn it is to whack it into the Beehole/CFS (delete as appropriate).

[houseboy]

If lower league coaches were better than Premier League coaches, then Premier League clubs would hire them for a fraction of the cost.

I’m not so sure that would happen. It is logical for sure but I think PL clubs are too obsessed by big foreign names. Some big name managers seem to have spent entire careers winning not very much of anything at all apart from the race to get a ‘big’ job.

[Dressinggown]

How many free kicks in a central area within 25 yards have we scored from in the last few seasons ?

I don't think that there have been many near the goal.

Scott Twine scored a couple of belters.

Flemming's equaliser at Norwich can't be classed as a direct hit from a set piece.

[Rowls]

The OP poses a genuinely interesting question. It's like one of those essay titles from school, "To What Extent..."

There are clearly fads and fashions in managerial appointments. Here's one simple observation that appears to hold as being generally true:

Too many modern managers seem to have the impression that they can change a game of football the way you can decisively effect a game of chess. In this respect, they're over-estimating the effect their tinkering has on the game and under-estimating the players on the pitch. It also seems to hint to me at a lack of trust in the players and a lack of understanding about the true nature of the game.

It's not that tactics aren't important, it's just that they are only a single factor. And you cannot control the players on a pitch like they are avatars or, indeed, chess pieces.

Some of the dullest, most witless purposeless sideways football I've ever seen has been in recent times. And not all of it has been under Gareth Southgate. With sports science, increased professionalism, perfect pitches and modern advanced nutrition we have the most skilled, fittest players the world has ever seen. So how can football have suddenly become so dull? Could it be that they're being over-coached and all the spontaneity has disappeared from the game?

Here's Carlos Ancelotti speaking about something similar:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... is-own-way

[Dressinggown]

How many free kicks in a central area within 25 yards have we scored from in the last few seasons ?

I don't think that there have been many near the goal.

Scott Twine scored a couple of belters.

Flemming's equaliser at Norwich can't be classed as a direct hit from a set piece.

[hoosier-daddy]

I saw a post match interview with Watford manager, Tom Cleverly, on Saturday.

None of the usual media hype, self indulgent bullsh*t that we come to expect from the managers of today.

Cleverly outlined things how they were at the club. He reflected about his team, his players, his decisions and that they were outplayed by a far better side on the day.

A refreshing change when managers are like that.

[fatboy47]

If you understand the story of the "Emporer's New Clothes" then you can pretty much understand how Premier League managerial appointments work.

It's why muppets like Lampard get appointed in front of candidates like Dyche.

[Bosscat]

If you understand the story of the "Emporer's New Clothes" then you can pretty much understand how Premier League managerial appointments work.

It's why muppets like Lampard get appointed in front of candidates like Dyche.

But we keep getting told by some on here that Dyche is useless and sh*te.

[Spijed]

Some such as Moyes,Cooper, Ten Hag, Lampard, Rooney,Potter have all been given top billing by the press and owners swallow the hype.

Moyes is a top manager, like SD whereas you look at Potters managerial record and ask yourself "What exactly has he achieved"?

[Spijed]

He's always inherited the best squads in the league, a lot of his signings are to be questioned.
Fantastic coach probably the best ever but can he rebuild squads like Fergie did?
Fergie is still a better manager for me.

I suspect that if Guardiola took over a newly promoted club you'd see exactly the same outcome as we saw last season under VK.

[ecc]

I saw a post match interview with Watford manager, Tom Cleverly, on Saturday.

None of the usual media hype, self indulgent bullsh*t that we come to expect from the managers of today.

Cleverly outlined things how they were at the club. He reflected about his team, his players, his decisions and that they were outplayed by a far better side on the day.

He gave credit to the Watford supporters for making the trip up North.

I hope that he has a successful future.

Fully agree, Dressinggown. Thought he spoke with dignity.

[Hipper]

Moyes is a top manager, like SD whereas you look at Potters managerial record and ask yourself "What exactly has he achieved"?

Potter took over at Brighton from Chris Hughton who had done OK but the football wasn't what was wanted. Potter played the style of football required and did as well as Hughton and then in his final season before leaving for Chelsea he moved them up to ninth.

Having said that our Sean got us to seventh which is surely the greater achievement.

[ClaretPete001]

Fully agree, Dressinggown. Thought he spoke with dignity.

To be honest, I think he is a bit of a twonk. They should have sat in and hit us on the break like everyone else has...!

[ClaretPete001]

The OP poses a genuinely interesting question. It's like one of those essay titles from school, "To What Extent..."

There are clearly fads and fashions in managerial appointments. Here's one simple observation that appears to hold as being generally true:

Too many modern managers seem to have the impression that they can change a game of football the way you can decisively effect a game of chess. In this respect, they're over-estimating the effect their tinkering has on the game and under-estimating the players on the pitch. It also seems to hint to me at a lack of trust in the players and a lack of understanding about the true nature of the game.

It's not that tactics aren't important, it's just that they are only a single factor. And you cannot control the players on a pitch like they are avatars or, indeed, chess pieces.

Some of the dullest, most witless purposeless sideways football I've ever seen has been in recent times. And not all of it has been under Gareth Southgate. With sports science, increased professionalism, perfect pitches and modern advanced nutrition we have the most skilled, fittest players the world has ever seen. So how can football have suddenly become so dull? Could it be that they're being over-coached and all the spontaneity has disappeared from the game?

Here's Carlos Ancelotti speaking about something similar:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... is-own-way

Ancelloti is correct and man management is the key.

But I still think Managers are important. It's finding the right fit.

VK was shocking in the PL verging on idiocy whereas I doubt Sean Dyche would work at Bayern

The manager is one variable. If you have the best players then you can coach a team like VK does if you don't then you can't...!

I watched Everton play a super smart game against Chelsea and tbh should have won the game. Everton are not going to beat Chelsea playing the VK way.

[Hipper]

I was always impressed at what Dario Gradi achieved at Crewe over fourteen years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dario_Gradi

[Tufty]

It would make for an interesting TV program, in the style of "Rich House, Poor house", if managers from a Premier League club could swap places for a month with a manager of a League 2 club.

Guardiola to Morecambe....& Derek Adams to City for example.