.........have played a combined 66 Prem games and managed just 7 wins.
Just shows how massive is the gulf between the divisions.

Only really Ipswich who have thrown any money at it and on paper they had the most to do with lots of their squad coming up through the leagues with them.

Always going to be hard for Leicester starting on -2 and with not a lot to spend. Manager leaving too meant they were always on the back foot as they were wedded to his style.

Saints got lucky last season, they had a very good squad for that level and never troubled the top 2, they look now like a side who finished 4th in the championship.

You’re spot on though the gap is massive, you’ve got to go up, come down stronger, then go up stronger & build bit by bit. However you also need to not need to sell everyone when you come down, or have everyone want to leave, squad building isn’t easy for that!

Everton looked good today (albeit Spurs were gash) and wolves will “do enough” so it’s very hard to look past the current bottom 3.

Speaking of recruitment, Bournemouth, Forest, Fulham have shown that if you can stay up that first season then what you can spend (risk) goes much further, attracting players & managers is easier and the rewards are there if you can recruit well - As with most industry’s however it’s the hardest thing to do bar none!

JR1882 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 7:32 pm

Only really Ipswich who have thrown any money at it and on paper they had the most to do with lots of their squad coming up through the leagues with them.

Always going to be hard for Leicester starting on -2 and with not a lot to spend. Manager leaving too meant they were always on the back foot as they were wedded to his style.

Saints got lucky last season, they had a very good squad for that level and never troubled the top 2, they look now like a side who finished 4th in the championship.

You’re spot on though the gap is massive, you’ve got to go up, come down stronger, then go up stronger & build bit by bit. However you also need to not need to sell everyone when you come down, or have everyone want to leave, squad building isn’t easy for that!

Everton looked good today (albeit Spurs were gash) and wolves will “do enough” so it’s very hard to look past the current bottom 3.

Speaking of recruitment, Bournemouth, Forest, Fulham have shown that if you can stay up that first season then what you can spend (risk) goes much further, attracting players & managers is easier and the rewards are there if you can recruit well - As with most industry’s however it’s the hardest thing to do bar none!

I think those 3 have owners who have been willing to throw a Bob or two at and not having to worry about making a loss ,unfortunately our owners in comparison haven’t got a pot to **** in and all loved the media spotlight in the Premier League but have been conspicuous by their absence since relegation.Theyll happen all resurface when it’s the open top bus ride .

Just to point out. Leicester didn't start the season on -2 points.

and you could argue that Burnley and Sheff Utd teams this championship campaign are worse than 2 years ago and there still 2nd and 3rd - that gulf is getting bigger - think the championship gets "confused" because its so competitive but has little quality thats why promoted teams get found out very very quickly.

The Southampton one this season to me is a strange one, they knew they were relegation fodder as 1 of the weakest teams in the league and Martin must have thought "has any promoted team recently played out from back, open football and waltzed the championship but never changed in the premiership and got hammered and quickly relegated ????" OH hang on what about Burnley ? then Martin still insists even after loss after loss pumping out the "will never change my style / principles" ???? crazy to me.

Rinse and repeat,the Premier league is a closed shop just like the greedy ******* want it to be.

I mean look at the average sides like Palace. There back four/five is probably worth 200m

Fulham, our best player last year barely even gets a game for them (enough minutes for 10 games).

Brentford some of the best young talent in Europe (Zabarnyi, Kluivert, Outtaera, Evanilson)

Everton are one of the worst sides in the division and you could argue we don’t have a single player that would get in there starting eleven.

Wolves are shocking in the prem but again they have a forward that’s worth 60-70m (Cunha), with a sprinkling of some other top young talent Ait Nouri and Gomes.


Them five clubs are the type of clubs promoted teams are competing with is there any wonder they can’t even lay a glove on them.

In all seriousness for a promoted club to stay up they need to invest big in 4-5 players (25-30m each) and hope it’s enough.

It's the development of the middle teams which has caused the gap, not the top four or six who've always been on a different level to everyone else.

Teams like Brentford, Brighton and Bournemouth are now generally looking up rather than down and the teams contesting relegation has been shrunk.

In all fairness we'd done the "hard yards" in terms of going up, coming down, using the money, going up again, spending to have a better chance and eventually becoming "established". We even became so established we got a slot in Europe! Sadly we threw it all away and wasted all that hard work and investment with 2 (or 3?) utterly awful transfer windows by simply refusing to spend basically owt! Once you do that you're inviting the inevitable and it duly came. Now we're back trying to do it all over again and it will only be harder.

Southampton have one point less than Derby did after 22 games. They do look to be improving though so might get points against the lower teams.

On the spend point, Ipswich have spent €150m
since promotion, Southampton €122m, Leicester €83m, so €350m spent to gain 7 wins in 66 - pretty startling.

On the owners point, can’t say I’m familiar with any of their ownership situations but I know Southampton have decent levels of debt and ditto Leicester, so I’m not sure owners are personally funding these investments. I imagine this will be debt going on the club ultimately, although they may be better placed to bail them out if it goes wrong, I’m not sure.

I agree about up, down, build. Not sure we have done that well though, or Sheffield United or Luton.

If we go up I think the only hope is to field eleven players with real size, athleticism and physicality, play five at the back, low block & get good at set pieces/counters. I think any team that has tried to play and football against the established premier league clubs get found out.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:01 pm

I mean look at the average sides like Palace. There back four/five is probably worth 200m

Fulham, our best player last year barely even gets a game for them (enough minutes for 10 games).

Brentford some of the best young talent in Europe (Zabarnyi, Kluivert, Outtaera, Evanilson)

Everton are one of the worst sides in the division and you could argue we don’t have a single player that would get in there starting eleven.

Wolves are shocking in the prem but again they have a forward that’s worth 60-70m (Cunha), with a sprinkling of some other top young talent Ait Nouri and Gomes.


Them five clubs are the type of clubs promoted teams are competing with is there any wonder they can’t even lay a glove on them.

In all seriousness for a promoted club to stay up they need to invest big in 4-5 players (25-30m each) and hope it’s enough.

Berge was playing regularly for Fulham until his injury and only returned yesterday.

Also, those players mentioned are Bournemouth players - not Brentford.


Just out of interest, does anyone know how much Ipswich have spent this season? A lot was made about how much we spent but I would wager they have spent more than we did.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:01 pm

In all seriousness for a promoted club to stay up they need to invest big in 4-5 players (25-30m each) and hope it’s enough.

Agree with all of your post but this in particular.

It’s that or just find the biggest, fittest lads and organise them well in a low block and hope. Not great to watch though.

Jakubs Tash wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:12 pm

Berge was playing regularly for Fulham until his injury and only returned yesterday.

Also, those players mentioned are Bournemouth players - not Brentford.


Just out of interest, does anyone know how much Ipswich have spent this season? A lot was made about how much we spent but I would wager they have spent more than we did.

Apologies meant Bournemouth.

Jakubs Tash wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:12 pm

Just out of interest, does anyone know how much Ipswich have spent this season? A lot was made about how much we spent but I would wager they have spent more than we did.

Spends of all the teams in my post, although as ClaretPete pointed out recently, these are not net spends.

Phillogene has just taken Ipswich’s spending to €150m.

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:08 pm

In all fairness we'd done the "hard yards" in terms of going up, coming down, using the money, going up again, spending to have a better chance and eventually becoming "established". We even became so established we got a slot in Europe! Sadly we threw it all away and wasted all that hard work and investment with 2 (or 3?) utterly awful transfer windows by simply refusing to spend basically owt! Once you do that you're inviting the inevitable and it duly came. Now we're back trying to do it all over again and it will only be harder.

Completely agree.

Even when ALK came in we were ****ing around with £12m signings. It’s a different ball game now and as Newcastle said, I think you need 4-5 at £25m+ just to give yourself a shot. It’d have been much cheaper to just invest properly at the time and stay up. But of course we know what we had to save for!

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:12 pm

Agree with all of your post but this in particular.

It’s that or just find the biggest, fittest lads and organise them well in a low block and hope. Not great to watch though.

I honestly don’t even think that’s enough nowadays. All the teams in the prem are so good, every team has rapid, massive technically gifted players.

You have to be so incredibly shrewd and find real gems or top players that have fell out with there existing clubs. One player I think we could try if we went up would be Ward Prowse.

Bournemouth and Brentford transfers.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/afc-bou ... verein/989
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-bren ... erein/1148

JR1882 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 7:32 pm

Only really Ipswich who have thrown any money at it and on paper they had the most to do with lots of their squad coming up through the leagues with them.

That's not correct

Pickles wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:06 pm

It's the development of the middle teams which has caused the gap, not the top four or six who've always been on a different level to everyone else.

Teams like Brentford, Brighton and Bournemouth are now generally looking up rather than down and the teams contesting relegation has been shrunk.

Agreed and throw in Forest , Fulham, Palace in this group

Forest did go a bit mad the first couple of seasons, signing anyone and everyone, in the hope they would find the right players.

NewClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:10 pm

I think any team that has tried to play and football against the established premier league clubs get found out.

This sentence is the saddest inditement of football in the Premier League. The biggest teams, where all the money goes, just get bigger and better.

The rest? They don’t care.

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:50 pm

Agreed and throw in Forest , Fulham, Palace in this group

We were also in that group and blew it!

Around £250m would give promoted sides a chance of a second season in the PL

....................have now played 81 games with just 9 wins between 'em.

Such a poor return for all three clubs.
Surviving and establishing yourself as a Premiership Team was something we did very well under Sean Dyche.
We have a defence that should - if we get promoted - be up to the task.
Our midfield is much stronger, i’ll take Berge back thank you Fulham.
Our forwards - with Edwards - might surprise us by scoring goals.

alf_resco wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 27, 2025 9:59 pm

....................have now played 81 games with just 9 wins between 'em.

Two of those are against each other as well.

SouthLondonexile wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2025 8:40 am

Such a poor return for all three clubs.
Surviving and establishing yourself as a Premiership Team was something we did very well under Sean Dyche.
We have a defence that should - if we get promoted - be up to the task.
Our midfield is much stronger, i’ll take Berge back thank you Fulham.
Our forwards - with Edwards - might surprise us by scoring goals.

As much as I’d like to be proved wrong, if we went up and kept our current squad we really wouldn’t survive without some quality reinforcements. A top centre forward, left back and central midfielder to name just three. As the original poster alluded to the gulf just gets bigger. The only way we’d survive and that’s no guarantee is with some heavy duty investment.

Losing your best players to the Prem is another factor.
More on Newcastle sniffing around Trafford on the bbc again this morning. It's not on once the windows shut in my view, it just destabilises players.

It really is getting to the stage of what's the actual point. We need the cash to keep rolling in and that's about it. Sad state of affairs when ambition to complete at the highest level you can is virtually gone.

Can we stay up and establish ourselves, yes, it's possible. For a team with our resources, or lack of them, I'd say unlikely and chances of doing so seemingly harder year on year.

PSR is also an issue for promoted teams. If teams like Newcastle with wealthy backers can't spend due to this restrictive ruling, then what hope to do promoted teams have. The 200m+ spend suggested as the requirement, which I agree with fwiw, that's not even an option for us under PSR.

I was speaking to an Ipswich fan briefly earlier this week and he was damning of their decision to sell Hladky and sign Muric. Worst keeper I have seen at Portman Rd for many years was his assessment, cost us so many goals this season......

You can lose big money in the Championship or get promoted and lose even more trying to stay in the Prem. The beautiful game.

I think we will need some serious improvements, but I don't agree that means spending lots.

Recruitment generally seems poor across football. Ipswich paying over £10m for Muric seems ridiculous when they let Hladky go for nothing, even at the time it felt a lot.

Do cheaper players get higher praise because of their low fee/ expensive more criticism? Duff/ Arfield / Pope/ even Jonjo get heaps of praise, but our more expensive signings have been mostly failures - Gibson, Wout, Amdouni, Tresor!! Globally Neymar, Coutinho, Griezmann, Felix, Enzo (too many Chelsea players) seem poor value.

Gulf maybe getting bigger but with the correct recruitment and tactical nous there is no reason a promoted side can't stay up.
I still believe with the correct recruitment and management last season that we'd have survived.
VK sent us down plain and simple.

I think one thing ,well I bloody hope so !, is that the board will have learnt from last seasons prem disaster ( should we go up ) Though we had a bizzare situation where we had a worse team in the prem than the champ , mainly due to some great loan players etc .
Though it has to be said VK’s ego contributed to the disaster .

The bottom three seems nailed on already

Normally there's at least a fighting chance for the last 2

This needs sorting

Walt wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2025 9:04 am

It really is getting to the stage of what's the actual point. We need the cash to keep rolling in and that's about it. Sad state of affairs when ambition to complete at the highest level you can is virtually gone.

Can we stay up and establish ourselves, yes, it's possible. For a team with our resources, or lack of them, I'd say unlikely and chances of doing so seemingly harder year on year.

PSR is also an issue for promoted teams. If teams like Newcastle with wealthy backers can't spend due to this restrictive ruling, then what hope to do promoted teams have. The 200m+ spend suggested as the requirement, which I agree with fwiw, that's not even an option for us under PSR.

I suppose most of the teams other than ourselves, Leeds and Sheffield Utd will say the same about the Championship. The teams that are relegated from the EPL have such a massive advantage over the remaining teams. Last season 2 out of the 3 relegated sides went back up. It could easily have been all 3.

This season it looks very likely that at least 2 of the 3 promoted sides will be from teams relegated in the last 2 seasons. Again, it could possibly be 3.

As much as we may moan about the inequalities of the Premier League, I understand fans from other Championship clubs who may feel the same apathy and hopelessness about their own promotion prospects.

Anonymous Claret wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2025 10:54 am

I suppose most of the teams other than ourselves, Leeds and Sheffield Utd will say the same about the Championship. The teams that are relegated from the EPL have such a massive advantage over the remaining teams. Last season 2 out of the 3 relegated sides went back up. It could easily have been all 3.

This season it looks very likely that at least 2 of the 3 promoted sides will be from teams relegated in the last 2 seasons. Again, it could possibly be 3.

As much as we may moan about the inequalities of the Premier League, I understand fans from other Championship clubs who may feel the same apathy and hopelessness about their own promotion prospects.

I work with a Preston season ticket holder and he pretty much says this to me every other week

I remember Barry Kirby saying how unfair it was, or similar words.

These things are cyclical, at the present it is very difficult for someone from the Championship to break through and establish themselves. Certainly a lot harder than 5 years ago, and a lot lot harder than 15 years ago.
It will change again as teams find it difficult to maintain their spending levels with their league position. We just have to keep our fingers crossed that we get promoted at the 'right' time.

If the last 2 years have shown anything, it's that splashing the cash isn't a solution. You're still competing with clubs that can blow your spending out of the water, so for a club the size of Burnley we have to keep sourcing stars of the future, that would welcome a chance to play in Harrods shop window, that we can, if necessary make a profit on. To many on this board that will mean **** being thrown at the board for lack of ambition, but the reality is this is the way we have to be. Any other way would be reckless.

Time to look back at last season and say Kompany made a lot of really bad mistakes but the overall experience was inevitable regardless.

We've spent 9 of the last 12 seasons in the top flight .


How many have Blackburn, Bolton, Nobbers and Blackpool managed in that time?

Think on.

tarkys_ears wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2025 10:52 am

The bottom three seems nailed on already

Normally there's at least a fighting chance for the last 2

This needs sorting

I’ve not usually bought into the notion that the gulf is getting wider, certainly not in the group towards the bottom).

Looking at ourselves, each time we’ve been relegated, I’ve never thought that the gulf was too big to bridge, more that we’ve not got our recruitment quite right in the areas needed, or that we’ve set ourselves up to fail (last season).

This season however, a lot of the lesser clubs, the ones that you’d expect to be able to have a chance at finishing above, have looked a level above.

Wolves were hovering for a while, but they’re head and shoulders above any of the three promoted clubs. Palace, Brentford, Bournemouth, Fulham, Brighton all look really good teams.

There isn’t even the usual basket case of a club now that Everton seem to have taken a step forward with the takeover and bringing Moyes in.

Historically, I think it’s been pretty rare that the 3 promoted teams have been relegated. It might well become much less rare, barring the odd team that goes up with lots of cash (and even then, they’re likely limited in what they’re able to spend).

If it becomes the norm they’ll surely have to do something - although perhaps that’s what they want anyway, as long as Leeds (and perhaps a couple of others) end up in there with the rest!

If you think how awful we were at times. Finished 8 points behind Forest. Then think where we are and they are now. The gap isn’t too big really. Just need a proper identity and way of playing. Not a massive fan of Parker ball. But at least it’s his way. Not trying to be one of a 1000 coaches wanting to copy PG.

One win in 9-ouch. Compared with one win in 8 last season after 114 games

DCWat wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2025 11:46 am

Historically, I think it’s been pretty rare that the 3 promoted teams have been relegated. It might well become much less rare, barring the odd team that goes up with lots of cash (and even then, they’re likely limited in what they’re able to spend).

Only happened twice (PL era possibly), and last year was the 2nd.

I don't think it has to be this way. Strategically you're better off going up with no loans, and then spend big on 2 to 3 players who really improve your first 11 and would get in other PL teams. Problem is, teams like us have spent a lot (by our standards) on players not much better than we already had. Reality is players we spend £10m-£15m on and think are expensive, wouldn't be wanted by other PL teams.

People said it was a closed shop 10 years ago and more. As much as the gulf appears to widen, it doesn't take long for things to unravel via a key player injury/ manager leaving.

10 years ago QPR, Hull, WBA, Sunderland, Stoke, Swansea and Burnley were in the top flight. Plus Southampton and Leicester.

All 3 promoted teams made huge errors this season in recruitment & managers, which many people said before a ball was kicked. Isn't easy, but have to give yourself a chance.

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2025 11:36 am

If the last 2 years have shown anything, it's that splashing the cash isn't a solution. You're still competing with clubs that can blow your spending out of the water, so for a club the size of Burnley we have to keep sourcing stars of the future, that would welcome a chance to play in Harrods shop window, that we can, if necessary make a profit on. To many on this board that will mean **** being thrown at the board for lack of ambition, but the reality is this is the way we have to be. Any other way would be reckless.

To be fair, I think that's exactly what we tried to do last year. It might have looked like 'splashing the cash' from our perspective but I think in the main we got pretty reasonable value for money. Arguably Tresor is the only player we signed last year for any kind of fee that we wouldn't expect to at least break even on (clearly there are unusual circumstances there) and most will turn a healthy profit. And despite what we spent, they still weren't (collectively at least) quite ready for that level.

The gap is huge, and growing ever bigger. There will be an odd team that bucks the trend and manages to stay up (maybe Leeds next year) but teams going up and coming straight back down again is going to become the norm unless there is a real change. How many of our current squad are really Premier League material right now? We're not going to correct that by unearthing a few unpolished gems from League 1 at £3m a piece.

Walt wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 28, 2025 9:04 am

The 200m+ spend suggested as the requirement, which I agree with fwiw, that's not even an option for us under PSR.

£200m over 6 years (the most allowed) is £33m per year. Taking into account the EPL money, then this isn't too ridiculous. But it is a gamble if you don't stay up, unless you have agreements to sell a certain number of those players for a certain amount if relegated