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We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2025 8:05 pm
by agreenwood
Regardless of opposition, nobody should have been surprised at the defeat on Saturday. Even Premier League seasons that haven’t involved a relegation scrap, we usually make poor starts.
In the 5 PL season prior to this one, we’ve won a grand total of one game in first 5 games of the season. We got 1 point in the first 5 games last time out, 1 point in 2021/22, 1 point in 2020/21, 5 points in 2019/20 and 1 point in 2018/19. That’s 9 points out of a possible 75.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2025 8:14 pm
by ksrclaret
Great research. We really don’t make life easy on ourselves.
You’d think the law of averages would owe us a more pleasant start this time, but the fixture list looks unkind to say the least.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2025 9:37 pm
by NottsClaret
ksrclaret wrote: ↑Mon Aug 18, 2025 8:14 pm
Great research. We really don’t make life easy on ourselves.
You’d think the law of averages would owe us a more pleasant start this time, but the fixture list looks unkind to say the least.
Not sure about that. Spurs and United were two of the worst teams in the Prem and Sunderland were 4th in the Championship. It is a good stat though.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 5:06 pm
by box_of_frogs
Our season won’t be defined by the games against the top 8 or so (where I expect Spuds to be). Our season will be defined by the results against the bottom half. Beat the those at the bottom and you won’t be there yourself.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 5:15 pm
by Dark Cloud
box_of_frogs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 19, 2025 5:06 pm
Our season won’t be defined by the games against the top 8 or so (where I expect Spuds to be). Our season will be defined by the results against the bottom half. Beat the those at the bottom and you won’t be there yourself.
Which is why it's really not that crazy to suggest Saturday's game is a must win.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 5:42 pm
by ClaretPete001
At this point most will be looking at how the season is set fair to pan out. The Spurs game was disappointing not because we got beat but because we gave away 3 poor goals.
If we had set our stall out to defend and got beat by a decent goal but otherwise looked solid you could say we'll do better against the lesser PL sides.
If we'd give it a good go and lost on the balance of play then so be it.
But to allow Richarlison two free kicks in the box and Johnson a free run on goal is a bit of a concern. The first one 3 defenders didn't react and the second one Sonne just let him go. And the third one, we had a full back seemingly trying to play Johnson offside when Ekdal was ten yards behind.
For all the good play and for large periods we did look the better side if you are going to defend like that you aren't going to beat anyone.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 5:51 pm
by fidelcastro
Dark Cloud wrote: ↑Tue Aug 19, 2025 5:15 pm
Which is why it's really not that crazy to suggest Saturday's game is a must win.
I got pelters for suggesting that on Saturday.
I'd love to know where people think our first three points are coming from, if Sunderland isn't a must win.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 6:37 pm
by kentonclaret
fidelcastro wrote: ↑Tue Aug 19, 2025 5:51 pm
I got pelters for suggesting that on Saturday.
I'd love to know where people think our first three points are coming from, if Sunderland isn't a must win.
For Burnley it’s certainly a must not lose given that Sunderland would already have opened a 6 point gap after just 2 games.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 6:38 pm
by ClaretPete001
Dark Cloud wrote: ↑Tue Aug 19, 2025 5:15 pm
Which is why it's really not that crazy to suggest Saturday's game is a must win.
It's also a bit crazy to insist that a team that finished 17th, played PSG in mid week and changed their side both in terms of personnel and formation is representative of a top 6 - 8 side. I mean they maybe but who knows at this point.
Outside of some rank defending we looked the better side for much of the game with a central midfield pairing of Laurent and Cullen.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 6:52 pm
by JohnMac
2 goals from a Brazilian International and another from a Welsh International, all finished with aplomb.
They weren't poor goals, they were quality goals finished by quality proven Premier League strikers.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 8:10 pm
by Spijed
agreenwood wrote: ↑Mon Aug 18, 2025 8:05 pm
Regardless of opposition, nobody should have been surprised at the defeat on Saturday. Even Premier League seasons that haven’t involved a relegation scrap, we usually make poor starts.
In the 5 PL season prior to this one, we’ve won a grand total of one game in first 5 games of the season. We got 1 point in the first 5 games last time out, 1 point in 2021/22, 1 point in 2020/21, 5 points in 2019/20 and 1 point in 2018/19. That’s 9 points out of a possible 75.
And in the 20/21 season we'd only got 2 points after the first 7 matches. Yet survived with 39 points.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 8:36 pm
by ClaretPete001
JohnMac wrote: ↑Tue Aug 19, 2025 6:52 pm
2 goals from a Brazilian International and another from a Welsh International, all finished with aplomb.
They weren't poor goals, they were quality goals finished by quality proven Premier League strikers.
It's all about opinions. I think we had a young right back who has played 3 games in two seasons and only ever one in the PL had a bit of a 'mare and he dragged poor old Kyle Walker all over the place.
The first goal Ekdal semed to completely lose the flight of the ball but to also be fair to him he has barely played 30 games in the last four seasons.
Richarlison is around a 1 in 4 PL striker but he's proven quality and I doubt whether Championship players could master the technique he showed but we are in the PL and to be fair he isn't even guaranteed a place in the Spurs side.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 10:04 pm
by Taffy on the wing
JohnMac wrote: ↑Tue Aug 19, 2025 6:52 pm
2 goals from a Brazilian International and another from a Welsh International, all finished with aplomb.
They weren't poor goals, they were quality goals finished by quality proven Premier League strikers.
Some people have to find blame in every goal conceded.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 10:37 pm
by ClaretPete001
Taffy on the wing wrote: ↑Tue Aug 19, 2025 10:04 pm
Some people have to find blame in every goal conceded.
Some people like to talk about football and not other people's opinions...
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2025 11:32 pm
by Bullabill
Maybe we need to get one of those plomb things.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2025 4:04 am
by Taffy on the wing
ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 19, 2025 10:37 pm
Some people like to talk about football and not other people's opinions...
Maybe if you didn't state your opinions as facts i wouldn't have to say owt!
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2025 4:17 am
by Taffy on the wing
Taffy on the wing wrote: ↑Wed Aug 20, 2025 4:04 am
Maybe if you didn't state your opinions as facts i wouldn't have to say owt!
Mmm i sent that before i had read your post......my bad!
As for opinions....I think Steve was most at fault for the first & there was no-one to blame for the other two.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2025 4:59 am
by Elizabeth
ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 19, 2025 5:42 pm
At this point most will be looking at how the season is set fair to pan out. The Spurs game was disappointing not because we got beat but because we gave away 3 poor goals.
If we had set our stall out to defend and got beat by a decent goal but otherwise looked solid you could say we'll do better against the lesser PL sides.
If we'd give it a good go and lost on the balance of play then so be it.
But to allow Richarlison two free kicks in the box and Johnson a free run on goal is a bit of a concern. The first one 3 defenders didn't react and the second one Sonne just let him go. And the third one, we had a full back seemingly trying to play Johnson offside when Ekdal was ten yards behind.
For all the good play and for large periods we did look the better side if you are going to defend like that you aren't going to beat anyone.
You might say it was worrying if we were say 10 games in and playing with our strongest defence.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2025 7:20 am
by Corway
We were assess as having the most difficult start to the season of all clubs so it’s not surprising with a. Umber out injured. We need to score and not lose on Saturday to get some momentum.
Our first home game against a team currently in bottom 7 is Everton in December 27.
We need a striker and will struggle till we have one.
Brownhill filled the gap last year - if he isn’t off I’d get him to do a Mee.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2025 7:29 am
by fidelcastro
Corway wrote: ↑Wed Aug 20, 2025 7:20 am
We were assess as having the most difficult start to the season of all clubs so it’s not surprising with a. Umber out injured. We need to score and not lose on Saturday to get some momentum.
Our first home game against a team currently in bottom 7 is Everton in December 27.
We need a striker and will struggle till we have one.
Brownhill filled the gap last year - if he isn’t off I’d get him to do a Mee.
I've no idea who a. Umber is! Is he a new signing that I missed?
What do you mean about Brownhill doing a Mee? I've genuinely no idea what you mean.
A team currently in the bottom 7? We've played one game FFS!
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2025 12:00 pm
by ClaretTony
agreenwood wrote: ↑Mon Aug 18, 2025 8:05 pm
Regardless of opposition, nobody should have been surprised at the defeat on Saturday. Even Premier League seasons that haven’t involved a relegation scrap, we usually make poor starts.
In the 5 PL season prior to this one, we’ve won a grand total of one game in first 5 games of the season. We got 1 point in the first 5 games last time out, 1 point in 2021/22, 1 point in 2020/21, 5 points in 2019/20 and 1 point in 2018/19. That’s 9 points out of a possible 75.
Best start from five games was in 2017/18 when we had eight points.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 10:45 am
by agreenwood
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Wed Aug 20, 2025 12:00 pm
Best start from five games was in 2017/18 when we had eight points.
Yep. We’ve been in the PL for 9 season before this one. In 7 of the 9 our points average over the first 5 games was worse than the season average ie we’re a side who tends to start poorly and improve, rather than the other way round.
Aside from 2017/18, the only other PL season where we started pretty well, was the Coyle/Laws season.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 10:59 am
by ClaretTony
agreenwood wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 10:45 am
Yep. We’ve been in the PL for 9 season before this one. In 7 of the 9 our points average over the first 5 games was worse than the season average ie we’re a side who tends to start poorly and improve, rather than the other way round.
Aside from 2017/18, the only other PL season where we started pretty well, was the Coyle/Laws season.
I've always split it into half seasons
2009/10
First Half - 20 points
second Half - 10 points
2014/15
First Half - 16 points
Second Half - 17 points
2016/17
First Half - 23 points
Second Half - 17 points
2017/18
First Half - 32 points
Second Half - 22 points
2018/19
First Half - 12 points
Second Half - 28 points
2019/20
First Half - 24 points
Second Half - 30 points
2020/21
First Half - 22 points
Second Half - 17 points
2021/22
First Half - 13 points
Second Half - 22 points
2023/24
First Half - 11 points
Second Half - 13 points
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:18 am
by Goliath
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 10:59 am
I've always split it into half seasons
2009/10
First Half - 20 points
second Half - 10 points
2014/15
First Half - 16 points
Second Half - 17 points
2016/17
First Half - 23 points
Second Half - 17 points
2017/18
First Half - 32 points
Second Half - 22 points
2018/19
First Half - 12 points
Second Half - 28 points
2019/20
First Half - 24 points
Second Half - 30 points
2020/21
First Half - 22 points
Second Half - 17 points
2021/22
First Half - 13 points
Second Half - 22 points
2023/24
First Half - 11 points
Second Half - 13 points
We were really unlucky to go down in 21/22 with that points tally. It must be one of the highest in recent years. That team was too good to go down.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:31 am
by ClaretTony
Goliath wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:18 am
We were really unlucky to go down in 21/22 with that points tally. It must be one of the highest in recent years. That team was too good to go down.
Just look at the three seasons from 2017/18. Unbelievable points return apart from that half a season in 2018/19.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:35 am
by claretonthecoast1882
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:31 am
Just look at the three seasons from 2017/18. Unbelievable points return apart from that half a season in 2018/19.
Crazy to think we have picked more points in some halves of a season than the whole total of the last one
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:42 am
by ClaretTony
claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:35 am
Crazy to think we have picked more points in some halves of a season than the whole total of the last one
It is crazy, but it shows just what a good squad Sean Dyche had created for us during that purple patch.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:48 am
by claretonthecoast1882
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:42 am
It is crazy, but it shows just what a good squad Sean Dyche had created for us during that purple patch.
The 19/20 Covis season think we lost one in 13 or 14 games and that was the standard 5-0 with Man City. Can't imagine us ever doing that again
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:55 am
by ClaretTony
claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:48 am
The 19/20 Covis season think we lost one in 13 or 14 games and that was the standard 5-0 with Man City. Can't imagine us ever doing that again
Starting with the home game against Leicester in January 2020 through to the win at Norwich in the last away game, we won eight, drew six and lost just one of fifteen games.
Then we signed Stephens and Norris that summer when Dyche wanted to bring in other players.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 12:06 pm
by claretonthecoast1882
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:55 am
Starting with the home game against Leicester in January 2020 through to the win at Norwich in the last away game, we won eight, drew six and lost just one of fifteen games.
Then we signed Stephens and Norris that summer when Dyche wanted to bring in other players.
Maybe it was the City result that made the board give him them 2 ha
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 12:21 pm
by Spijed
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:42 am
It is crazy, but it shows just what a good squad Sean Dyche had created for us during that purple patch.
The night (Stoke at home) when we temporarily went into 4th place during the 17/18 season showed how good we really were.
Wonder if anyone really thought we'd end up qualifying for Europe, though some of the press even mentioned the Champions League after that game
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 2:06 pm
by getbennyon
box_of_frogs wrote: ↑Tue Aug 19, 2025 5:06 pm
Our season won’t be defined by the games against the top 8 or so (where I expect Spuds to be). Our season will be defined by the results against the bottom half. Beat the those at the bottom and you won’t be there yourself.
Our season will be defined by how many points we accumulate over the 38 games played this season.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 2:21 pm
by Quicknick
Apart from the two relegation seasons since Dyche took over, we weren't involved in relegation fights. In fact, the five seasons prior to our 2021/22 relegation yielded an average league position of precisely 13th.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 7:02 pm
by Foshiznik
Quicknick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 2:21 pm
Apart from the two relegation seasons since Dyche took over, we weren't involved in relegation fights. In fact, the five seasons prior to our 2021/22 relegation yielded an average league position of precisely 13th.
We really didn’t know well we had it back then did we…
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 7:12 pm
by fidelcastro
Foshiznik wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 7:02 pm
We really didn’t know well we had it back then did we…
Yet the constant moaning about the likes of Hendrick and Wood was relentless.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 9:51 pm
by Quicknick
fidelcastro wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 7:12 pm
Yet the constant moaning about the likes of Hendrick and Wood was relentless.
Two very good players.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 10:06 pm
by Newcastleclaret93
Quicknick wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 2:21 pm
Apart from the two relegation seasons since Dyche took over, we weren't involved in relegation fights. In fact, the five seasons prior to our 2021/22 relegation yielded an average league position of precisely 13th.
I think transfer fees since then have more than doubled.
There were a total of 368 transfers in during that season at an average of 4.6million pound per transfer.
This season (just the summer window) there has been 290 transfers in at an average of 9.3 million pound.
Shows just how inflated transfer fees have been over that period and how it is just getting harder and harder for clubs like ours to compete.
Re: We should be used to slow Premier League starts by now
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2025 11:02 pm
by Quicknick
Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 21, 2025 10:06 pm
I think transfer fees since then have more than doubled.
There were a total of 368 transfers in during that season at an average of 4.6million pound per transfer.
This season (just the summer window) there has been 290 transfers in at an average of 9.3 million pound.
Shows just how inflated transfer fees have been over that period and how it is just getting harder and harder for clubs like ours to compete.
Good point. I wasn't suggesting that we'd finish thirteenth this season. I'll settle for fifteenth.