Yes....and Labour as well...never.....again.DCWat wrote:So an election approaches, the manifestos are launched, and even if you felt a Tory manifesto was the best for the country (perhaps an off chance from your political standing) it’d still be “never”?
Interesting question.If it be your will wrote:As a Corbyn fan I do ask myself, though, which candidate would definitely beat Corbyn? It's definitely Stewart
It's amazing isn't it the prospect of power or an election and suddenly they morph from Ebenzer Scrooge and all of them turn into Santa Claus.jrgbfc wrote:Interesting the part where they were talking about knife crime and how the answer is educating and investing in young people, when all of them have been part of a government that has done nothing but cut funding and decimate youth services.
I am wary of this too. I will be attending a hustings in 2 weeks time and I intend to ask Boris and Candidate B that kind of question. I expect a manifesto with the kind of commitments that are in my above post. I would very much hope and expect members in the North to share similar views to me, compassionate small c conservatism if you will. Let’s see.If it be your will wrote:I struggle to conceive of a Conservative manifesto that would earn my vote. Their members and financial backers simply would not allow them to present such a manifesto to the electorate.
Just for reference, I don't think Thatcher alienated many people re. the miners. Or at least, by supporting the Nottinghamshire miners and crushing the Yorkshire ones. Obviously she wouldn't get many votes in yorkshire mining towns, but then she wouldn't anyway; but apart from the most ardent trades unionists, there wasn't any great support for the Yorkshire miners.CrosspoolClarets wrote:That’s why Boris will crush Corbyn once he delivers Brexit. He just has to avoid Thatcher’s mistake and not alienate a large chunk by a desperately bad policy (miners, poll tax etc), and also remember the poorest are not a big group but still need looking after.
That's some entertaining political fan fiction. Discussion of left/right/centre ground is a discussion about ideology, which is fundamentally abstract and whose labels are little more than descriptive. The minute you assume those labels are prescriptive (as you do above) as though they have any bearing on how the masses vote, you abandon reality. Elections aren't fought on the left or right or centre, or whatever that means - reality isn't a mechanical beam scale - they're fought on the clarity, worth, strengths and weaknesses of policy ideas as positioned and advanced in accordance with the strength and trustworthiness of their advocates. You want people to be well off and successful and have opportunities? Guess what? everyone does. Striving for prosperity isn't monopolised by the Tories or by leavers. You'd do well to make a habit of asking yourself: "what is the single best intention of the person proposing this policy" before assuming those with whom you disagree are on some sort of jealous race to the bottom. I also think it's patronising of you to reckon desperate folk could be won over by promising that the trains will run on time.CrosspoolClarets wrote:Interesting question.
The big mistake made by Osborne (a devout advocate of it), Cameron (who wasn’t but was led that way by Osborne) and May - they all felt that the way forward for the Tories was to occupy the centre ground. Neither left nor right wing. The bit that Blair occupied.
I think Stewart is similar. And thus similarly inept. I don’t subscribe to the view that he won tonight.
Thatcher was right. So is Boris. The way forward is not the centre ground, it is the common ground (a phrase first attributed to Keith Joseph).
Person A may be a working class electrical apprentice and Person B may be a 40 year old entrepreneur from a rich family. The things they have in common is that they both want to succeed, they both want good education for their kids when they have them, they both want income to lead to a better quality of life, they both want good public services with good transport infrastructure around them.
Stewart’s approach will please nobody by trying to find that imaginary line in between everyone. Boris’s approach will be to appeal to as broad a group as possible, first of all the Leavers, then the “strivers” (with his tax cuts), then the left behind areas with transport and all areas in terms of education.
That’s why Boris will crush Corbyn once he delivers Brexit. He just has to avoid Thatcher’s mistake and not alienate a large chunk by a desperately bad policy (miners, poll tax etc), and also remember the poorest are not a big group but still need looking after.
The Tories could pick any of those tonight (or BoJo) and still look centrist compared to Corbyn, tbh.If it be your will wrote:I think you've exposed a logical inconsistency. It feels disconcerting.
I am very much of the view that the political centre has, for whatever reason, evaporated. Change UK spring to mind, and the Lib Dem surge can only realistically be explained by the 'remain' vote - no one seems to know any other Lib Dem policy, after all. As such, I believe those suggesting Labour should move back to the centre in order to win are completely and utterly mistaken. They'd just wither and die if they did that.
Therefore, by the same token, I think the Tories should choose someone they truly believe in, and ignore the centrists.
lets be honest here, you'd endorse Mickey Mouse if you thought he'd deliver Brexit.CrosspoolClarets wrote:Interesting question.
The big mistake made by Osborne (a devout advocate of it), Cameron (who wasn’t but was led that way by Osborne) and May - they all felt that the way forward for the Tories was to occupy the centre ground. Neither left nor right wing. The bit that Blair occupied.
I think Stewart is similar. And thus similarly inept. I don’t subscribe to the view that he won tonight.
Thatcher was right. So is Boris. The way forward is not the centre ground, it is the common ground (a phrase first attributed to Keith Joseph).
Person A may be a working class electrical apprentice and Person B may be a 40 year old entrepreneur from a rich family. The things they have in common is that they both want to succeed, they both want good education for their kids when they have them, they both want income to lead to a better quality of life, they both want good public services with good transport infrastructure around them.
Stewart’s approach will please nobody by trying to find that imaginary line in between everyone. Boris’s approach will be to appeal to as broad a group as possible, first of all the Leavers, then the “strivers” (with his tax cuts), then the left behind areas with transport and all areas in terms of education.
That’s why Boris will crush Corbyn once he delivers Brexit. He just has to avoid Thatcher’s mistake and not alienate a large chunk by a desperately bad policy (miners, poll tax etc), and also remember the poorest are not a big group but still need looking after.
On a technical note, putting your foot through a modern LED television is not so easy as the old cathode ray tube designs. You don't get that satisfying implosion and it's attendant bang. Plus some people put their TVs high up on the wall so you need to be some kung fu practitioner to succeed.Bin Ont Turf wrote:Did anyone put their foot through the tele watching that?
He's endorsing Johnson, so I'd say it's a bit harsh on Mickey, in all honesty.Lancasterclaret wrote:lets be honest here, you'd endorse Mickey Mouse if you thought he'd deliver Brexit.
Mickey Mouse aka Boris Johnson will deliver Brexit after somehow tweaking Mrs May's deal. Portillo sees him putting the Backstop/ Customs union just in NI which was the original EU offer with a possible referendum in NI to seek approval of that part of the deal.Lancasterclaret wrote:lets be honest here, you'd endorse Mickey Mouse if you thought he'd deliver Brexit.
The DUP will never go for that. If he tries that they could well pull the plug on the government, which could lead to a general election.mdd2 wrote:Mickey Mouse aka Boris Johnson will deliver Brexit after somehow tweaking Mrs May's deal. Portillo sees him putting the Backstop/ Customs union just in NI which was the original EU offer with a possible referendum in NI to seek approval of that part of the deal.
JohnMcGreal wrote:God help us if that shower is the best group of people we can find to become PM. A seriously mediocre bunch of very limited talent.
Fair play to Stewart for at least being honest about no deal being unviable and highlighting the fact that we are a parliamentary democracy, and Parliament is sovereign.
Whoever gets it, they'll be in the same boat as May come October. Another extension will be required, and we can't just repeat this circus during the next extended time period. Something will have to change.
Most non-Tories would take this view just for partisan reasons - they would say the same unobjectively no matter who the candidates are. Some of these people believe Labour is well-led by their leader and shadow cabinet.JohnMcGreal wrote:God help us if that shower is the best group of people we can find to become PM. A seriously mediocre bunch of very limited talent.
You never know JM; something has to give somewhere and faced with no deal or May mark 15 maybe just maybe enough of the sheep will go into the Government lobby.JohnMcGreal wrote:The DUP will never go for that. If he tries that they could well pull the plug on the government, which could lead to a general election.
Must admit my first thought about Hancock supporting Boris was he's just looking after himself.LoveCurryPies wrote:Matt Hancock withdrew on friday and yesterday came out as supporting Boris. I suspect Boris & his team are offering cabinet roles and Matt is just the first to bite. Wonder which of the 6 will be next?
I did think Rory won the night but he will lose the war. Gove talking into the camera had clearly been briefed by his wife, the Daily Mail columnist Sarah Vine. She's a nasty piece of work and the thought of her being in number 10 should set alarm bells ringing.
And you wouldn't endorse Mickey Mouse over Donald Trump? Of course you would.Lancasterclaret wrote:lets be honest here, you'd endorse Mickey Mouse if you thought he'd deliver Brexit.
I'd be too flabbergasted to wonder how Mickey Mouse won the democratic nomination to care!dsr wrote:And you wouldn't endorse Mickey Mouse over Donald Trump? Of course you would.
Yep, let's try and put through the same withdrawal agreement that has been rejected 3 times.Lancasterclaret wrote:This is going to trigger the likes of Ringo and Andyclaret but JOB has just nailed Rory Stewart
"I disagree with Rory Stewart about how we should deal with reality, but he actually recognises reality."
Recognising reality is a key stage to uniting the country behind a sensible Brexit.
Hilary Clinton got it last time. Possibly the only person who could have lost to Donald Trump. If she can do it, so can Mickey.Lancasterclaret wrote:I'd be too flabbergasted to wonder how Mickey Mouse won the democratic nomination to care!
Recognising reality of where we are and the only way to avoid a "No Deal" short of "No Brexit".AndyClaret wrote:Yep, let's try and put through the same withdrawal agreement that has been rejected 3 times.
The question posed was which candidate is best placed to beat Corbyn, not to deliver Brexit.Lancasterclaret wrote:lets be honest here, you'd endorse Mickey Mouse if you thought he'd deliver Brexit.
The tweet clearly states that fieldwork was completed on Friday. Televised debates tend to have an major influence on these kinds of polls, so that poll might be a now-unreliable indicator. Let's at least wait for the post-debate data.AndyClaret wrote:Your daily reminder that twitter isn't representative of the real world.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status ... 15808?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The debates were watched by just over 1m people, 5m were watching socceraid, and 4m were watching countryfile.Spiral wrote:The tweet clearly states that fieldwork was completed on Friday. Televised debates tend to have an major influence on these kinds of polls, so that poll might be a now-unreliable indicator. Let's at least wait for the post-debate data.
I don't doubt those figures, but how are they relevant to the reporting of the debate on the news etc, and the the discussion that is going on up and down the country today. How many of those 4 million who watched Countryfile (e.g.) do you think have engaged with issues raised on the programme since yesterday.?AndyClaret wrote:The debates were watched by just over 1m people, 5m were watching socceraid, and 4m were watching countryfile.
Hipper wrote:On a technical note, putting your foot through a modern LED television is not so easy as the old cathode ray tube designs. You don't get that satisfying implosion and it's attendant bang. Plus some people put their TVs high up on the wall so you need to be some kung fu practitioner to succeed.
Life has certainly taken a turn for the worse.
That about sums it up brilliantly.AndrewJB wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... sed-debate
You don't need to watch it, but read Crace's take on it.
892 Tory members sampled. And even clocking at 1m pairs of eyeballs on this circus, that's 840,000 more than the total Conservative membership. I'd hazard a guess paid up Tories would have an interest in the televised debates. Look, I'm not arguing here nor there on who will/should win; I'm just pointing out that the data you're taking to be a sound representation of the views of party membership might be a bit useless, now. I'm not making a point about partisan issues, I'm making a point about data.AndyClaret wrote:The debates were watched by just over 1m people, 5m were watching socceraid, and 4m were watching countryfile.
Sinn Fein stand on a pledge of not appearing in Parliament. Their view is that they have a mandate to not vote.mdd2 wrote:You never know JM; something has to give somewhere and faced with no deal or May mark 15 maybe just maybe enough of the sheep will go into the Government lobby.
Of course it would only take 7 Sinn Fein to come over and vote against the Government and scupper this Parliament irrespective of the DUP. Interesting why this has never happened
**** me, thats some take.summitclaret wrote:I see May apparently voted for Rory as did her lapdog Liddington. No surprises there. Like Rory they are both remainders and this confirms that she was never serious about a free trade deal. Rory has no clue how to get a deal through the HOC other than a no doubt rigged Citizen's Panel.
Farage would have him for breakfast.
Made me laugh!RingoMcCartney wrote:I hope this'll be taken in good spirit , but the only notable thing about Rory Stewart is that he appears to have William Defoe's come face.
Indeed, negotiating peace deals with warring factions in Afghanistan is one thing but dealing with Nigel is an entirely different ball game.summitclaret wrote:I see May apparently voted for Rory as did her lapdog Liddington. No surprises there. Like Rory they are both remainders and this confirms that she was never serious about a free trade deal. Rory has no clue how to get a deal through the HOC other than a no doubt rigged Citizen's Panel.
Farage would have him for breakfast.
You've got to remember that Farage would take a rifle and head to the hills just like the Mujahideen did if brexit fails.aggi wrote:Indeed, negotiating peace deals with warring factions in Afghanistan is one thing but dealing with Nigel is an entirely different ball game.
(Although I don't have any expectation that Stewart will get in, I reckon he's positioning himself for the next leadership campaign after Boris screws up and they're looking to go the other way.)
The members will vote for whoever is most prepared to parrot their own ignorant and boneheaded views back at them, which rules out Stewart, who actually seems to have some grasp of reality.AndrewJB wrote:Rory roaring on. Seems he has some momentum now, whereas Boris appears to be promising everything to everyone. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-momentum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;