Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[RingoMcCartney]

same people banging on for years regarding why it won't work, proven time and time again that the experts they quoted from the Bank of England and across a PM, numerous MP's why Brexit will never pass to the people of the UK just don't know enough to make a meaningful decision/vote to the majority who voted yes leave are just ignorant and stupid.

and then we have statements continually from those who provided link after link that the economy would fail, food, medical shortages etc. over years and even though not one, not one has come to fruition they still have there heads in the sand and still decry everything that is actually happening with statements like "scaping the barrel for good news". You're arguments would be better if you could provide that single piece of evidence in your empty barrel of doom and gloom.

Stop going on about austerity, it's happened, I believe the majority of people would agree with you that it was necessary but went on to long, quoting mismanagement of the economy is simply rubbish, particularly in the context of you wanted everything to remain the same because everything was rosy in the Garden under the EU wasn't it, surely it must have been the way you are clinging to your beliefs of your failure.

Brexit actually happened in case you missed it, done, finished, you were continual wrong during the years leading up to it so why not just wait and see what exactly this year brings, the good the bad and the ugly and then you can sneer, point out you were right all along.

Expect the regulation reference to "right wing media" in 5...4....3....2.....1......

[Jakubclaret]

normally your posts are ok but I have no clue as to what you're trying to insinuate, there is no insinuation or soundbites just facts, let me try to recap because your argumentative approach is like my child when I explain facts to him. We had a referendum, vote leave won, went through agony until we had a GE, vote leave won, BJ and the Gov met with the EU and signed documents with a broad outline of how we would leave and we left.

now that broad outline is under discussion/negotiation whatever you want to call it, the agreement to leave is signed, now it's just agreeing on the terms and conditions, what is it you don't understand. I don't mean what is it you dislike or object to, so in clear terms and simplistic for me please provide the evidence that we might no leave, nothing else, just that please.

He'll still ask again & guaranteed you will have to explain again, just a question of when.

[RingoMcCartney]

I've not criticised the people of Burnley or sneered at anyone in this exchange and my points have nothing to do with how anyone voted in the election or the referendum or what the results of either was.

Just to repeat my main point is that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for them. (I include myself in this)

I'll add to the above that I am not talking about knowing whats best for oneself in general terms but with regards to very specific issues and questions such as Brexit

Your words -

so we choose someone who is better placed to make ongoing decisions about what is best for us.

We are responsible for ourselves and have the right to make our own decisions and decide whats best for us

I may be able to help you.

This is how The People of Burnley have voted -

2005 Labour

2010 Liberal Democrat

2015 Labour

2016 Leave

2015 Labour

2017 Labour

2019 Conservative

It was the same constituency, ( no boundary changes) with pretty much the same constituents , with pretty much the same electorate ( save younger people joining and older people dying and leaving the electoral roll)

In your opinion, in which years , did the same voters make the right or wrong "choice in choosing someone who is better placed to make ongoing decisions about what is best for them" as you put it?

Which years?

In your opinion, in which years , did the same voters get it right or wrong when they exercised their, "right to make their own decisions and decide whats best for them"?

Which years?

[RingoMcCartney]

You're scraping the barrel looking for good news. Our economy has been stagnant for the last decade due to Tory austerity, and mismanagement of the economy. If you think that's going to change once we leave, then I'll sell you some bags of fresh sunlight for you to brighten up your cellar.

Save the money you'll spend on the bags of sunlight. Buy yourself an alarm clock. You appear to have slept right through the UK leaving the EU sleepy head!!!

Anyway, now you're up and awake. Any chance you could answer my straight forward question?

Who knows what's best for The People of Burnley?

The People of Burnley?

Or,

A metropolitan bubble dweller based 100s of miles away?

[ClaretCliff]

We are responsible for ourselves and have the right to make our own decisions and decide whats best for us but anyone who blindly goes through life thinking they always know best is just an ignoramus

Now now, DA. That’s no way to talk about Lancaster.

[Devils_Advocate]

In your opinion, in which years , did the same voters make the right or wrong "choice in choosing someone who is better placed to make ongoing decisions about what is best for them" as you put it?

In your opinion, in which years , did the same voters get it right or wrong when they exercised their, "right to make their own decisions and decide whats best for them"?

Which years?

I think you are arguing with yourself here cos my point has nothing to do with people making the wrong or right choice or about exercising their right to make their own decisions.

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for them

If you are trying to pin me down to an opinion on who was right and who was wrong then in the case of Brexit then I blame the politicians of the time for the European Union Referendum Act 2015. The drafting of the legislation and running of the political campaigns was a shambles from start to finish.

[Tall Paul]

Paul, no one told you to be happy, you questioned a fact, I told you what I believe/know to be facts. I really really don't care whether you're happy about it or not, but you do know you have choices if you don't want to carry on with what BJ and the Gov are doing, that's down to you and you alone.

So it's not "Brexit in name only" at the moment then?

Yes we've left the EU, but Brexit is far from "done, finished".

[RingoMcCartney]

Lancaster Claret-

"I do have the unfortunate habit of being right most of the time"

Speaking of the message boards very own Brian Clough. Where is The Claret Pimpernel?

Come back aboard Lancs! Following the general election result and us leaving the EU it must be difficult dismounting your high horse, but as a Claret we all love you buddy!

[RingoMcCartney]

I think you are arguing with yourself here cos my point has nothing to do with people making the wrong or right choice or about exercising their right to make their own decisions.

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for them

If you are trying to pin me down to an opinion on who was right and who was wrong then in the case of Brexit then I blame the politicians of the time for the European Union Referendum Act 2015. The drafting of the legislation and running of the political campaigns was a shambles from start to finish.

Some serious squirming now!

Do you believe in universal suffrage?

Yes or no?

[KateR]

So it's not "Brexit in name only" at the moment then?

Yes we've left the EU, but Brexit is far from "done, finished".

no it's not, the term word Brexit was coined and was simply for Britain (UK) to exit the EU, that has been done, you can argue all you like I honestly don't care. Again provide the evidence that the UK has not and maybe even not leave the UK. However since I am convinced you can't let's just say we agree to disagree but your obviously wrong, difficult admitting you're wrong isn't it

Have a good weekend and hopefully tomorrows result for BFC makes it a great weekend, let me know if I got that wrong to please.

[Devils_Advocate]

Some serious squirming now!

Do you believe in universal suffrage?

Yes or no?

Not squirming just sticking to the specific point I was making and yes I do.

[KateR]

Some serious squirming now!

Do you believe in universal suffrage?

Yes or no?

Please stop squeezing him and asking difficult questions it is a very difficult thing for men to admit they might even have got something wrong let alone be wrong for years, getting off there soapboxes is a very big step down so don't expect any admission of even, well maybe I didn't phrase it well is a step to far for the clique.

[RingoMcCartney]

Please stop squeezing him and asking difficult questions it is a very difficult thing for men to admit they might even have got something wrong let alone be wrong for years, getting off there soapboxes is a very big step down so don't expect any admission of even, well maybe I didn't phrase it well is a step to far for the clique.

He calls it "being pinned down "

I call it "making you realise that the People of Burnley, know what's best for the People of Burnley "

Call me old fashioned!

[RingoMcCartney]

Not squirming just sticking to the specific point I was making and yes I do.

Good

So the People of Burnley have, through the ballot box , in your very own words-

choose someone who is better placed to make ongoing decisions about what is best for us.

We are responsible for ourselves and have the right to make our own decisions and decide whats best for us

So when the People of Burnley, the very same People of Burnley that voted:

Labour in 2015,

Leave in 2016,

Labour in 2017 and

Conservative in 2019.

They knew what was best for the People of Burnley?

Yes or no?

[aggi]

normally your posts are ok but I have no clue as to what you're trying to insinuate, there is no insinuation or soundbites just facts, let me try to recap because your argumentative approach is like my child when I explain facts to him. We had a referendum, vote leave won, went through agony until we had a GE, vote leave won, BJ and the Gov met with the EU and signed documents with a broad outline of how we would leave and we left.

now that broad outline is under discussion/negotiation whatever you want to call it, the agreement to leave is signed, now it's just agreeing on the terms and conditions, what is it you don't understand. I don't mean what is it you dislike or object to, so in clear terms and simplistic for me please provide the evidence that we might not leave or indeed have not left, nothing else, just that please. The fact we are operating under EU law and regulations does not alter the fact we left so please don't try to provide that as evidence as it would be bogus.

At the start of the debate it was all about how much better the UK would be out of the EU. (Often with the promise that we would be getting most of the benefits with none of the downsides.)

Since then the narrative has shifted to leaving for leaving's sake. The achievement is no longer becoming a more successful country, it is simply being able to say that we are no longer in the EU. There has been years of minimising expectations, reneging on promises and double-talk to blur perception (look at the rebranding on No Deal to an Australia type deal for instance).

The important part of Brexit isn't the technical leaving date, it's the future trade deal and Johnson and a variety of others did an amazing job of glossing over this with soundbites like "Get Brexit done".

The above is true regardless of what side of the debate you're on. If we end up in an indefinite transition period would you still view that as having left the EU (admittedly it appears that many on here would given the comments about the economic impact of leaving not happening as forecast)?

[Devils_Advocate]

Good

So the People of Burnley have, through the ballot box , in your very own words-





So when the People of Burnley, the very same People of Burnley that voted:

Labour in 2015,

Leave in 2016,

Labour in 2017 and

Conservative in 2019.

They knew what was best for the People of Burnley?

Yes or no?

You're still arguing with yourself as none of the above has anything to do with the point I was making.

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

Im stuck at work till at least 6pm just waiting for a business call so happy to keep you busy for another hour or two yet

[KateR]

At the start of the debate it was all about how much better the UK would be out of the EU. (Often with the promise that we would be getting most of the benefits with none of the downsides.)

Since then the narrative has shifted to leaving for leaving's sake. The achievement is no longer becoming a more successful country, it is simply being able to say that we are no longer in the EU. There has been years of minimising expectations, reneging on promises and double-talk to blur perception (look at the rebranding on No Deal to an Australia type deal for instance).

The important part of Brexit isn't the technical leaving date, it's the future trade deal and Johnson and a variety of others did an amazing job of glossing over this with soundbites like "Get Brexit done".

The above is true regardless of what side of the debate you're on. If we end up in an indefinite transition period would you still view that as having left the EU (admittedly it appears that many on here would given the comments about the economic impact of leaving not happening as forecast)?

I accept what your saying, I can not speak for everyone else only what I think, I have always said that the actual first phase of leaving which is complete was not and could not be the important phase. Now we are in the real crucial phase of negotiating, agreeing the T&C's, which of course will fundamentally drive the future beyond 2020. I could also state that I firmly believe that the timeline is not enough and I would predict an extension, however this is all predicated on both sides working to achieve the best they can for their side. Often I get the sense from several on here that we should just simply accept what the EU now wants, I could also point out that numerous factions prevented the actual leave happening by a lengthy period, which has lead to having this shortened period in which to negotiate. However that is also past and I want to look to the future,, there is no way anyone on this board or even in the Gov. at the moment who can tell you the final outcome.

I believe, obviously not a fact, that UK Rep's will do there utmost to ensure an economic upturn for the UK past 2020, however here again as I have stated often, not every group such as but not limited to Farmers/Fishing/Financial/Rail/Steel/Manufacturing/Retail, etc will see an upturn.

What I can say is that all of those groups weren't doing super well for themselves or the country while we were in the EU. I can also say that if we'd have stayed in the EU I don't believe there would have been any change and you will never convince me everyone was happy with that.

Change Management is always something many people fear, how will it affect them and there family, I have personally had to deal with this for years when working, does every change work out absolutely not but if we want to improve the UK economical beyond what it was under the EU then the only way was to take a risk and change/leave.

[KateR]

You're still arguing with yourself as none of the above has anything to do with the point I was making.

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

Im stuck at work till at least 6pm just waiting for a business call so happy to keep you busy for another hour or two yet

I would actual agree with your analogy, so if we take it a step further is it not incumbent of the complex political and economical global issues to be outlined to the population such that they can make a meaningful choice? Which is exactly what happened in this whole discussion, both side continued to try and advise, yes because of those complexities they were all guessing because there was no yardstick to go by and hold up as "this is what will happen". I know you will get back to your slogans and Andrew will with his tabloids, yet the simple fact is people listened and made a choice, usually we never go back and continually berate the choice. This has happened obviously in the referendum and several GE's with the result that faced with what they knew they made an overwhelming choice.

Surely there can be no doubt that the people of Burnley made a fundamental shift in there political thinking and voted accordingly. I would add that it was not down to clearly understanding complex political and economical global issues IMO but more down to understanding what was happening in the HoC and every Party Leader that drove the change

Yet it appears and correct me if I am wrong you continually say everyone was wrong who voted leave, is that a fact or not?

Hopefully you're still at work and can respond

[martin_p]

I could also point out that numerous factions prevented the actual leave happening by a lengthy period, which has lead to having this shortened period in which to negotiate.

That’s just not true. There are two one year extensions to the transition period that can be triggered but Johnson has repeatedly said he won’t use them. So there’s only one person making this a ten month negotiation when two years and ten months are available.

[Devils_Advocate]

I would actual agree with your analogy, so if we take it a step further is it not incumbent of the complex political and economical global issues to be outlined to the population such that they can make a meaningful choice? Which is exactly what happened in this whole discussion, both side continued to try and advise, yes because of those complexities they were all guessing because there was no yardstick to go by and hold up as "this is what will happen". I know you will get back to your slogans and Andrew will with his tabloids, yet the simple fact is people listened and made a choice, usually we never go back and continually berate the choice. This has happened obviously in the referendum and several GE's with the result that faced with what they knew they made an overwhelming choice.

Surely there can be no doubt that the people of Burnley made a fundamental shift in there political thinking and voted accordingly. I would add that it was not down to clearly understanding complex political and economical global issues IMO but more down to understanding what was happening in the HoC and every Party Leader that drove the change

Yet it appears and correct me if I am wrong you continually say everyone was wrong who voted leave, is that a fact or not?

Hopefully you're still at work and can respond

You make a reasonable post and what seems like a genuine request for engagement so why do you have to put those silly digs at me and Andrew in the middle. Its that kind of stuff that questions me bothering to engage properly and just treating the conversation like I have done with Ringo or just ignoring you as I normally do

Anyhow your point about the need for the complex political and economical global issues to be outlined to the population such that they can make a meaningful choice is one I think I made reference to as the second part of my original point.

My issue with this is we are now in some kind of post truth era where those in power just lie and make stuff up and the institutions that should hold people to account are on the payroll and a lot of the people themselves are fed up of experts and facts and are not willing to question or challenge things when it supports their position.

If holding a referendum was hard enough for such a complex issue then trying to do it in todays culture and environment is a suicide mission as the last 4 years have proved to be (I dont mean in the result but in what it has cost the country financially, politically and socially in just carrying it out)

With regards your last part then no its not a case of everyone who voted like me are right and everyone else is wrong. The issue I have is when peoples arguments are based on lies, propaganda and half truths and that is what I see throughout the Leave campaign and Tory govt and it is what I tend to see more in the leave voters and these are normally the posts I call out and I am critical of on here.

[RingoMcCartney]

You're still arguing with yourself as none of the above has anything to do with the point I was making.

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

Im stuck at work till at least 6pm just waiting for a business call so happy to keep you busy for another hour or two yet

When you say-

the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

Have you considered for one moment, that the People of Burnley acknowledge this?

They then follow your guidance and

so we choose someone who is better placed to make ongoing decisions about what is best for us.

We are responsible for ourselves and have the right to make our own decisions and decide whats best for us

While agreeing with your assertion that , they may not be best placed for "complex political and economical global issues" Using universal suffrage, which you believe in, they cast their vote and entrust a representative that they believe will act in their best interests.

They did it in 2010, 2015 , 2017 and 2019

So, do the People of Burnley when they vote know what's best for the people of Burnley?

Yes or No?

[KateR]

That’s just not true. There are two one year extensions to the transition period that can be triggered but Johnson has repeatedly said he won’t use them. So there’s only one person making this a ten month negotiation when two years and ten months are available.

Martin,
welcome back, where have you been

Unfortunately Martin it is true, I don't doubt what you say regarding the extensions is factual and that BJ has said no, however the length of time taken to get to the recent leave meant from 2016 to end of 2019 to achieve that, I know you know why it took so long as does the whole country. This length of time had a direct impact on the present negotiation, it had an impact because BJ used as a slogan to get elected and could not at this moment of time simply be seen to be giving up. It has an impact on negotiations and getting people to understand and relax where they can to have a meaningful agreement. It is standard negotiation tactic 101 nd usually engaged by those who want to drive to a completion.

Therefore I stand by assertion of what I said, you don't have to agree, as always it's a point of view, one shared by me any many others but I acknowledge your view is also shared by many.

[Devils_Advocate]

When you say-



Have you considered for one moment, that the People of Burnley acknowledge this?

They then follow your guidance and






While agreeing with your assertion that , they may not be best placed for "complex political and economical global issues" Using universal suffrage, which you believe in, they cast their vote and entrust a representative that they believe will act in their best interests.

They did it in 2010, 2015 , 2017 and 2019

So, do the People of Burnley when they vote know what's best for the people of Burnley?

Yes or No?

Thats a different question and whether the people of Burnley knew what was best for them in any of the elections dates you have stated doesn't make a difference to the point I am making.

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

[AndrewJB]

same people banging on for years regarding why it won't work, proven time and time again that the experts they quoted from the Bank of England and across a PM, numerous MP's why Brexit will never pass to the people of the UK just don't know enough to make a meaningful decision/vote to the majority who voted yes leave are just ignorant and stupid.

and then we have statements continually from those who provided link after link that the economy would fail, food, medical shortages etc. over years and even though not one, not one has come to fruition they still have there heads in the sand and still decry everything that is actually happening with statements like "scaping the barrel for good news". You're arguments would be better if you could provide that single piece of evidence in your empty barrel of doom and gloom.

Stop going on about austerity, it's happened, I believe the majority of people would agree with you that it was necessary but went on to long, quoting mismanagement of the economy is simply rubbish, particularly in the context of you wanted everything to remain the same because everything was rosy in the Garden under the EU wasn't it, surely it must have been the way you are clinging to your beliefs of your failure.

Brexit actually happened in case you missed it, done, finished, you were continual wrong during the years leading up to it so why not just wait and see what exactly this year brings, the good the bad and the ugly and then you can sneer, point out you were right all along.

We are still in the single market, and customs union. We still have free movement. The only thing we no longer have at this moment (and until next year) is a seat at the table. If things stay as they are now, it would be the soft Brexit many leavers declared was possible during the referendum, but things are going to change. It looks very much as though Johnson is aiming at leaving on WTO terms, because he appears unwilling to consider regulatory alignment. If Britain wants to be an enthusiastic and active trading nation, then our actions right now are the very opposite of that. We have the richest trading bloc right on our doorstep, and yet we're going to throw up barriers to that trade in order to attempt to trade with poorer countries further away. We have two birds in our hands, but are chasing the half a bird in the bush.

Austerity didn't just go on for too long (it's still going on, and there are no signs it's going to end), it was entirely unnecessary. We could have grown our way out of the deficit instead, or a combination of cutting back in some areas. If you want an example of this, look at the way the Labour Party quickly cleaned up the mess left by a Tory PM in 1945. They not only dealt with a far larger deficit, but massive unemployment, and crumbling infrastructure. And they actually BUILT a welfare state, and the NHS - rather than knocking them down. Recent austerity didn't even do what they said it would do - rid us of the deficit by 2015. That is called failure. What austerity has done, is make the rich a lot richer. And I believe that was what austerity was really about. Who funds the Tory party? And who has benefited most from them being in power? What is the point of a political party that only looks after 10% of the population (at best)?

You would be a better poster if you engaged more, and insulted less.

[KateR]

You make a reasonable post and what seems like a genuine request for engagement so why do you have to put those silly digs at me and Andrew in the middle. Its that kind of stuff that questions me bothering to engage properly and just treating the conversation like I have done with Ringo or just ignoring you as I normally do

Anyhow your point about the need for the complex political and economical global issues to be outlined to the population such that they can make a meaningful choice is one I think I made reference to as the second part of my original point.

My issue with this is we are now in some kind of post truth era where those in power just lie and make stuff up and the institutions that should hold people to account are on the payroll and a lot of the people themselves are fed up of experts and facts and are not willing to question or challenge things when it supports their position.

If holding a referendum was hard enough for such a complex issue then trying to do it in todays culture and environment is a suicide mission as the last 4 years have proved to be (I dont mean in the result but in what it has cost the country financially, politically and socially in just carrying it out)

With regards your last part then no its not a case of everyone who voted like me are right and everyone else is wrong. The issue I have is when peoples arguments are based on lies, propaganda and half truths and that is what I see throughout the Leave campaign and Tory govt and it is what I tend to see more in the leave voters and these are normally the posts I call out and I am critical of on here.

I really wasn't having a dig at you and Andrew in that post, I was pointing that reading so many of your posts and Andrews this is something you drag up a lot, so where I was saying people made an informed decision after hearing the complexities I believe you and Andrew would both have said, no they did not all they heard were slogans and soundbites from the press and I did not want you or Andrew to bring that line of discussion to the debate.

As for the rest of your post, yes totally agree, very complex, the population are bystanders now and you can only hope they so called experts get it right but we both know not everything in the garden will be rosy, some people will be dismayed about somethings but again at the end of the day for me it is how will it affect the country as a whole. I think you will need to get beyond 2022 at the earliest to see anything in realty yet I would bet a lot of money that come the end of the negotiations the fear machine will go into overdrive, plus we will see numerous new slogans from BJ and Gov. with howls of derision from the Oppositions, not enough done etc. I would predict a slow change and in 2021 might even be a drop in the overall state of the country, which will result in growth beyond.

[KateR]

We are still in the single market, and customs union. We still have free movement. The only thing we no longer have at this moment (and until next year) is a seat at the table. If things stay as they are now, it would be the soft Brexit many leavers declared was possible during the referendum, but things are going to change. It looks very much as though Johnson is aiming at leaving on WTO terms, because he appears unwilling to consider regulatory alignment. If Britain wants to be an enthusiastic and active trading nation, then our actions right now are the very opposite of that. We have the richest trading bloc right on our doorstep, and yet we're going to throw up barriers to that trade in order to attempt to trade with poorer countries further away. We have two birds in our hands, but are chasing the half a bird in the bush.

Austerity didn't just go on for too long (it's still going on, and there are no signs it's going to end), it was entirely unnecessary. We could have grown our way out of the deficit instead, or a combination of cutting back in some areas. If you want an example of this, look at the way the Labour Party quickly cleaned up the mess left by a Tory PM in 1945. They not only dealt with a far larger deficit, but massive unemployment, and crumbling infrastructure. And they actually BUILT a welfare state, and the NHS - rather than knocking them down. Recent austerity didn't even do what they said it would do - rid us of the deficit by 2015. That is called failure. What austerity has done, is make the rich a lot richer. And I believe that was what austerity was really about. Who funds the Tory party? And who has benefited most from them being in power? What is the point of a political party that only looks after 10% of the population (at best)?

You would be a better poster if you engaged more, and insulted less.

simply laughable and anticipated, you'd be a better poster if you stopped posting here altogether and stick to the football threads, you like to criticize and yet typically you can't take any criticism.

enjoy your weekend

[AndrewJB]

simply laughable and anticipated, you'd be a better poster if you stopped posting here altogether and stick to the football threads, you like to criticize and yet typically you can't take any criticism.

enjoy your weekend

There is a difference between criticism (you'll find I own up to mistakes I make, and appreciate a different take on things than mine), and insults (posting to someone as you would a recalcitrant child). Civility is a good thing to aim at.

I suspect you won't engage because you can't. Whether that's because you're unable to due to the facts, or your pride, I suppose other people can decide.

[RingoMcCartney]

Thats a different question and whether the people of Burnley knew what was best for them in any of the elections dates you have stated doesn't make a difference to the point I am making.

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

It's not a different question. It's the same one but its uncomfortable for you to answer isn't it!

So , lets say the People of Burnley agree with your assertion that

for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves"

You've said you agree with universal suffrage.


They then exercise their democratic right or as you put it-

We are responsible for ourselves and have the right to make our own decisions and decide whats best for us

choose someone who is better placed to make ongoing decisions about what is best for us.

At the point they place the ballot paper in the box. Do the People of Burnley know what's best for the People of Burnley?

Yes or no?

[Spijed]

Do the People of Burnley know what's best for the People of Burnley?

Yes or no?

Depends if they were strongly guided by that political Goliath - The Sun.

Therein lies the answer.

[Jakubclaret]

There is a difference between criticism (you'll find I own up to mistakes I make, and appreciate a different take on things than mine), and insults (posting to someone as you would a recalcitrant child). Civility is a good thing to aim at.

I suspect you won't engage because you can't. Whether that's because you're unable to due to the facts, or your pride, I suppose other people can decide.

I'm still waiting for yes you was right about the TV licence hike when you had a bee in your bonnet regarding the historical flaws in the TV program, perhaps you should follow your own advice.

[martin_p]

Martin,
welcome back, where have you been

Unfortunately Martin it is true, I don't doubt what you say regarding the extensions is factual and that BJ has said no, however the length of time taken to get to the recent leave meant from 2016 to end of 2019 to achieve that, I know you know why it took so long as does the whole country. This length of time had a direct impact on the present negotiation, it had an impact because BJ used as a slogan to get elected and could not at this moment of time simply be seen to be giving up. It has an impact on negotiations and getting people to understand and relax where they can to have a meaningful agreement. It is standard negotiation tactic 101 nd usually engaged by those who want to drive to a completion.

Therefore I stand by assertion of what I said, you don't have to agree, as always it's a point of view, one shared by me any many others but I acknowledge your view is also shared by many.

I don’t have to agree because you’re wrong. Brexit was delayed by ten months but whoever was to blame for that (and about half that time period was because the likes of Johnson and the ERG wouldn’t agree to May’s deal) there was provision in the withdrawal agreement to mitigate delays. Johnson is choosing not the use that.

[Devils_Advocate]

It's not a different question. It's the same one but its uncomfortable for you to answer isn't it!

So , lets say the People of Burnley agree with your assertion that




You've said you agree with universal suffrage.


They then exercise their democratic right or as you put it-






At the point they place the ballot paper in the box. Do the People of Burnley know what's best for the People of Burnley?

Yes or no?

There's a discussion in there somewhere but its got nothing to do with my point Im afraid

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

[RingoMcCartney]

Depends if they were strongly guided by that political Goliath - The Sun.

Therein lies the answer.

What if the very same voters had been previously strongly guided by that political goliath- the Daily Mirror?

[RingoMcCartney]

There's a discussion in there somewhere but its got nothing to do with my point Im afraid

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

You simply don't want to answer a straight forward question do you !

Let's try another approach.

On the one hand you claim you agree with universal suffrage.

This is when people

choose someone who is better placed to make ongoing decisions about what is best for us.

And when they enter the polling booth they are

responsible for ourselves and have the right to make our own decisions and decide whats best for us

That's the essence of universal suffrage.

Then on the other hand, you simultaneously believe

the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

You also simultaneously believe -

for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

If that's the case why bother with democracy!? If it's too complex, why bother with the ballot box?

Do you believe the People of Burnley have ever been in a position to know what's best for the People of Burnley ?

Yes or no?

[AndrewJB]

I'm still waiting for yes you was right about the TV licence hike when you had a bee in your bonnet regarding the historical flaws in the TV program, perhaps you should follow your own advice.

I remember the thread about a war series, but not a post about tv licences. Can you jog my memory? If I was wrong then of course I’ll own up.

[Colburn_Claret]

I think you are arguing with yourself here cos my point has nothing to do with people making the wrong or right choice or about exercising their right to make their own decisions.

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for them

If you are trying to pin me down to an opinion on who was right and who was wrong then in the case of Brexit then I blame the politicians of the time for the European Union Referendum Act 2015. The drafting of the legislation and running of the political campaigns was a shambles from start to finish.

But for all the complex political and economical global issues, who do we leave the decision to. As far as I can see those in the know, the economic experts, the globalists and especially the bloody MPs, are just as divided as the electorate. So in fact what you really want is to leave the decision to those in the know, the economic experts, the globalists and the MPs who agree with you......

[Jakubclaret]

I remember the thread about a war series, but not a post about tv licences. Can you jog my memory? If I was wrong then of course I’ll own up.

You post that much nonsense it's a good job 1 of us keeps track, basically you was complaining about the historians & lambasting the Beeb for failure to invest in a better calibre of historian's, I pointed out if you & other people didn't stop complaining it would rise, lo & behold.

[Devils_Advocate]

You simply don't want to answer a straight forward question do you !

Let's try another approach.

On the one hand you claim you agree with universal suffrage.

This is when people



And when they enter the polling booth they are



That's the essence of universal suffrage.

Then on the other hand, you simultaneously believe



You also simultaneously believe -




If that's the case why bother with democracy!? If it's too complex, why bother with the ballot box?

Do you believe the People of Burnley have ever been in a position to know what's best for the People of Burnley ?

Yes or no?

Still barking up the wrong tree and trying to manufacture a conversation out of thin air. All I was doing was making a simple point

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

[Devils_Advocate]

But for all the complex political and economical global issues, who do we leave the decision to. As far as I can see those in the know, the economic experts, the globalists and especially the bloody MPs, are just as divided as the electorate. So in fact what you really want is to leave the decision to those in the know, the economic experts, the globalists and the MPs who agree with you......

Hey Warrior, Ringo is looking to have a good discussion so why don't the two of you get together and have some fun

[RingoMcCartney]

Still barking up the wrong tree and trying to manufacture a conversation out of thin air. All I was doing was making a simple point

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

Still swerving. Still wriggling! Still not wanting to answer a straight forward question as it shines a light on the fact that you just cant bring yourself to say what I know and you know, you really want to say!

You believe in the principle of universal suffrage, or so you say!

Yet you simultaneously claim The People are " not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves!"

When have the People of Burnley, known what's best for the People of Burnley?

Which election? The 2005, 2010, 2015, 2017 or 2019?

Surely they knew what was best for them at least once as they voted Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat during this time?

Which one was it?

If they didn't?

Theres no point in the People of Burnley voting? No point in democracy?

Right or wrong?

[RingoMcCartney]

But for all the complex political and economical global issues, who do we leave the decision to. As far as I can see those in the know, the economic experts, the globalists and especially the bloody MPs, are just as divided as the electorate. So in fact what you really want is to leave the decision to those in the know, the economic experts, the globalists and the MPs who agree with you......

He reckons he believes in democracy

Yet due, to the "complex nature of political and economical global issues. " He is unable to give me a general election year when the people of Burnley voted in a way that showed they knew what was best for them!

Anybody would think he was avoiding admitting he only believes the People of Burnley know what's best for the people of Burnley, when they agree with him and we cant cant see it!!

Well we can , and it's great great fun , pretending we cant, and watching him twist and squirm , more and more with each and every desperate , answer avoiding, post he makes!

[RingoMcCartney]

I remember the thread about a war series, but not a post about tv licences. Can you jog my memory? If I was wrong then of course I’ll own up.

Andrew, perhaps you could help DA out, he's really struggling to give me a straight forward answer.

When have The People of Burnley demonstrated at a general election, that they knew what was best for the The People of Burnley, by the way they voted?

You got any suggestions?

[AndrewJB]

You post that much nonsense it's a good job 1 of us keeps track, basically you was complaining about the historians & lambasting the Beeb for failure to invest in a better calibre of historian's, I pointed out if you & other people didn't stop complaining it would rise, lo & behold.

Nonsense: spoken or written words that have no meaning, or foolish or unacceptable behaviour. If you think I write nonsense, then it's quite possible that you don't understand what I mean. I'd like to help you with this, so just let me know how.

As for your point, in what way was I wrong?

[Devils_Advocate]

Still swerving. Still wriggling! Still not wanting to answer a straight forward question as it shines a light on the fact that you just cant bring yourself to say what I know and you know, you really want to say!

You believe in the principle of universal suffrage, or so you say!

Yet you simultaneously claim The People are " not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves!"

When have the People of Burnley, known what's best for the People of Burnley?

Which election? The 2005, 2010, 2015, 2017 or 2019?

Surely they knew what was best for them at least once as they voted Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat during this time?

Which one was it?

If they didn't?

Theres no point in the People of Burnley voting? No point in democracy?

Right or wrong?

Happy to answer any questions relevant to my point but not sure how much clearer I can be that im not interested in your other nonsense.

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

Just chill out a bit cos you're coming across as a bit unhinged at the minute

[Jakubclaret]

Nonsense: spoken or written words that have no meaning, or foolish or unacceptable behaviour. If you think I write nonsense, then it's quite possible that you don't understand what I mean. I'd like to help you with this, so just let me know how.

As for your point, in what way was I wrong?

Doesn't matter, I was harsh I'm sorry, just forget about it & let's move on if that's ok?

[RingoMcCartney]

Happy to answer any questions relevant to my point but not sure how much clearer I can be that im not interested in your other nonsense.

My point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

Just chill out a bit cos you're coming across as a bit unhinged at the minute

Given "that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves"

Is there any point in universal suffrage, democracy, general elections or voting?

Yes or No?

[AndrewJB]

Andrew, perhaps you could help DA out, he's really struggling to give me a straight forward answer.

When have The People of Burnley demonstrated at a general election, that they knew what was best for the The People of Burnley, by the way they voted?

You got any suggestions?

I don't think DA is struggling at all, apart from dealing with your inability to understand his point. But to answer your question, it's unquestionably 1950, when nearly 90% of voters turned out.

Does that answer your question?

[RingoMcCartney]

I don't think DA is struggling at all, apart from dealing with your inability to understand his point. But to answer your question, it's unquestionably 1950, when nearly 90% of voters turned out.

Does that answer your question?

I understand his point entirely! He simply can't bring himself round to saying what we both know he wants to say!

So you've offered 1950 when the people of Burnley voted Labour. This was something they did repeatedly, right up until 2010.

In 2010 they voted Liberal Democrat.

In 2015 and 2017 they voted Labour, once again.

In 2019 they voted Conservative.

In the above years , which do you feel the People of Burnley voted in a way that, to you , showed that they knew what was best for themselves?

[Devils_Advocate]

Given "that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves"

Is there any point in universal suffrage, democracy, general elections or voting?

Yes or No?

Yes

[RingoMcCartney]

Yes

Great!

So despite "for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves"

What does a general election offer to, say, The People of Burnley?

What does it allow them to say through the ballot box?