Covid-19

[AndrewJB]

Just this bit of your post, Andrew. Have you not noticed what's happened to share prices? Have you not noticed what's happened to airlines, nearly all of them are grounded. I believe you mentioned once that your partner was in the travel/holiday business, Do you think the owners of travel businesses are doing well out of covid-19 and lockdown? Then there's the farmers with their crops left in the ground and their milk poured down the drains. Or, restaurant owners, with no one able to go into pubs. As for the banks, did you miss how much RBS reported as credit losses for their first quarter? And, then there's the price of oil and Royal Dutch Shell cutting their dividends by around 2/3rd.

Yes, if you are "at the top" you may always still be able to eat and somewhere to live, but some will go bust.

btw: do you agree the estimates, posted above, of earnings of someone who's been furloughed who is now only taking home 50% of monthly take home before furlough?

So by relieving these companies of the burdens of paying none working staff, and other financial obligations of a rentier nature, we can relieve the pressure and hopefully save more of them.

[NewClaret]

The polls say it’s true.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/fi ... s-mori.pdf

66% think the government were too late to take strict measures.

Ok, point taken.

Polls also show support holding up for the Conservatives though. Last 3 Westminster voting intention:

Opinium: Con 51% (+1), Lab 33% (-)
Survation: Con 48% (+4), Lab 31% (-2)
Redfield Wilton: Con 50% (-2), Lab 33% (+2)

Broadly where they were pre-covid, so maybe it’s more a question of materiality. I’d have been with the 66% in the IPSOS poll, but because overall I’m happy with government approach, it wouldn’t change my voting intention.

[AndrewJB]

In that scenario, how do you distinguish between people who can afford to continue to pay and those who can’t? Or are you saying rich people also benefit from this pause? People you consider rich will have a lot of borrowings, you know - that’s likely how they got rich.

And how do people put food on the table if they have no income? Or are you proposing food is also free during this period? In the scheme of things, I’d personally worry about feeding my family before paying the mortgage...had the government not mandated mortgage holidays anyway (which is sort of what you’re arguing for?)

Your theory also assumes everyone has debt. That’s not always the case. Again, in these instances, putting money in the hands of the man on the street is more beneficial than pausing a debt they don’t owe.

In any event, I suspect if Rishi had walked up to the lectern and said “we’re just going to pause the economy for a few months, so don’t worry anyone”, the consequence would have been economic turmoil. It would have far-reaching consequences, so complex we could not even begin to contemplate.

The furlough scheme may not align perfectly with your political ideology, but I imagine it is easier to deliver upon in a few weeks than an “economic pause”.

It would have to be across the board - for rich and poor, big business and small. Instead of shelling out on furlough pay the government could pay a universal basic income for everyone to cover food and power. This would be simpler than Sunak’s dogs breakfast that doesn’t cover everyone.

[claretonthecoast1882]

It would have to be across the board - for rich and poor, big business and small. Instead of shelling out on furlough pay the government could pay a universal basic income for everyone to cover food and power. This would be simpler than Sunak’s dogs breakfast that doesn’t cover everyone.

The only thing that comes across as a dogs breakfast are your posts. You are so bitter and twisted towards anything this government does. I did notice though you decided to skip past the part about you taking part in a con. Don't you feel slightly hypocritical to be taking advantage of something you are so against ?

[tiger76]

Sorry, Ringo, let me explain. The press you appear to wish to gag is the one that addresses difficult questions, assesses our performance, examines not only what has gone well but also the disastrous errors. The sychophantic, compliant press, shrinking admittedly, is the only one you are comfortable with.
Hence the "Let's pretend we'll ask awkward questions later. Not sure when but later." cop-out.

Stay safe etc.

It's the job of the press in any free democratic country to subject the sitting government to serious scrutiny,and I've noticed criticism isn't just coming from the usual suspects,Guardian/Independent/Mirror,but even the traditional right-wing press like the Mail are wading in now.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rope.html

That's worrying for the government when their usual cheerleaders aren't on message,it's only due to the media coverage of the lack of PPE and testing,allied to the opposition raising the problems in parliament,that finally stirred the government into action,the response beforehand was lethargic to say the least,throughout this crisis the UK government has been reactive,and not pro-active,if we are unfortunate enough to experience a 2nd wave,then hopefully many lessons will have been heeded,and we'll be in much better place to deal with the affects,if that isn't the case then many cabinet members should seriously consider their positions,including the PM.

[Mala591]

Prediction: There will soon be a massive boom in sales of 2 seater electric cars because public transport is (tragically) kaput for the next year or two.

[tiger76]

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has pledged to reach 200,000 tests for coronavirus a day by the end of May.

The government announced it had hit its target of 100,000 tests on Friday, but that number has since fallen back.

Speaking at Prime Minister's Questions, Mr Johnson said "capacity currently exceeds demand" and the government was taking steps to address that.

He said his "ambition" was to hit 200,000 tests "by the end of this month - and then go even higher".

He also confirmed that he would be setting out plans to begin lifting the coronavirus lockdown on Sunday, adding that he hoped to "get going on some of these measures on Monday".

Mr Johnson was making his first appearance in the Commons - and his first PMQs clash with new Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer - since the birth of his son and his recovery from coronavirus.

The government must review lockdown measures on Thursday by law - but the PM said he was waiting until Sunday to announce the government's plans because more data would be available.

And he warned it would be an "economic disaster" to relax the lockdown in a way which triggered a second spike in coronavirus cases.

In March, the PM said the government was aiming for 250,000 coronavirus tests a day but did not put a timescale on that.

Sir Keir Starmer said: "On April 30, the government claimed success in meeting its 100,000 tests a day target. Since then, as the prime minister knows, the number has fallen back.

"On Monday, there were just 84,000 tests and that meant 24,000 available tests were not used. What does the prime minister think was so special about April 30 that meant that testing that day was so high?"

Mr Johnson replied: "Yes, he's right that capacity currently exceeds demand, we're working on that, we're running at about 100,000 a day, but the ambition clearly is to get up to 200,000 a day by the end of this month and then to go even higher."

He told MPs that a "fantastic" testing regime will be critical to the UK's long-term economic recovery.

Is this wise?,they keep plucking numbers out of a hat,and thus far they've failed to hit a single target,why don't they just aspire to improve the rate of tests,but not put a figure or time limit on it,as it is,if they yet again fail to hit the 200k,then they'll come in for flak from the opposition,even if by the end of May the tests are 180/190k a day,this government is obsessed with meaningless targets,which they never reach,they said the debt and deficit would be sorted in the their 1st parliament,the deficit's reduced,but the debt's still rising,in almost a decade they haven't met the net migration targets they imposed.leading to that policy finally being abandoned.

Just get on with the bloody job,and stop chasing daft targets,which you'll never obtain.

[Billy Balfour]

What are the death rates per capita of the UK and of the US?

218 per million in the US.

433 per million in the UK.

But still, let's not ask questions of the govts handling of the pandemic crisis because asking searching questions of the govt in a democracy isn't a very democratic thing to do, apparently.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

[Zlatan]

Why would Boris want to test up to 200k/day, surely the target is to have the capacity for however many you need to test, which is people who are unwell, not to test people who are well and will have a negative result.

I genuinely don’t get the clamour for more tests to be done. Unless it’s proper and reliable antibody tests, then I’ll understand.

[Paul Waine]

As I understand it.
I earn just over 50k, take home just over 3k a month.

I am furloughed, under the Gov scheme I would get a little over 2k. Around 66% of normal pay, however currently my company is topping it up to £2.5k.

I thought of you when it was announced that your employer was planning redundancies. Good luck with whatever the outcome is.

[claretandy]

Reasons why comparisons aren't either helpful, or possible.

[StuffyClaret]

What are the death rates per capita of the UK and of the US?

218 per million in the US.

433 per million in the UK.

But still, let's not ask questions of the govts handling of the pandemic crisis because asking searching questions of the govt in a democracy isn't a very democratic thing to do, apparently.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

The UK also has a population density seven times greater than that of the US but don't let that scupper your logic

[NottsClaret]

It's an absolute stat-fest is this virus. Something for everyone, whatever your agenda.

[martin_p]

Reasons why comparisons aren't either helpful, or possible.

One figure it is possible to compare with is the 20,000 that was stated as a ‘good outcome’ of the government’s strategy. Now we’re over 30,000 it is possible to say that the government’s strategy has not led to a ‘good outcome’.

[tiger76]

One figure it is possible to compare with is the 20,000 that was stated as a ‘good outcome’ of the government’s strategy. Now we’re over 30,000 it is possible to say that the government’s strategy has not led to a ‘good outcome’.

I'd like to know exactly what the government's strategy is,we seem to be making it up on the hoof,without a clear end goal in sight,even the supposed lockdown is half-hearted,now the is how do we emerge from the lockdown,while keeping new cases from spiking,testing's all well and good,and we should seek to extend testing,but unless there's a purpose to the testing,and a clear cut national strategy,which the public can understand and support,we'll not get anywhere in a hurry.

[Billy Balfour]

Now we’re over 30,000 it is possible to say that the government’s strategy has not led to a ‘good outcome’.

Best not to say it, Martin. It would only send the happy Boris clappers on here into a tailspin.

[aggi]

Snipped for brevity

Just get on with the bloody job,and stop chasing daft targets,which you'll never obtain.

I know a few people who were tested (at a test centre) at the tail end of last week and are still waiting for results 5 days on. There needs to be a capacity to process the tests rather than just give them which may have become lost in all of this target chasing.

[tiger76]

no-one's mentioned this news item https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nigel-farage- ... 1461.html

Honestly between Nige,Cat Calderwood & Neil Ferguson,IDK who's the biggest eejit,is it any wonder a small minority flaunt the rules,when this is the example that our senior political figures send to the masses.

[AndrewJB]

The only thing that comes across as a dogs breakfast are your posts. You are so bitter and twisted towards anything this government does. I did notice though you decided to skip past the part about you taking part in a con. Don't you feel slightly hypocritical to be taking advantage of something you are so against ?

Bitter and twisted? I set out my opinions and thoughts, and I don’t use violent language in doing so. And far from merely criticising, ive put forward thoughts and ideas of how I think things can be improved. That’s me sticking my neck out. Even if you don’t like the ideas, they still count as a positive contribution. You’re completely free to attack my ideas - and if they’re so transparently bad that should be quite easy - so it’s a little strange that you’re choosing a personal attack instead.

Yes I think the furlough scheme is a con, for the reasons I’ve given, and no I don’t feel like a hypocrite because my partner has been furloughed. I’m more of a hypocrite for liking veal and fois gras.

If we want to consider real, blatant, in your face hypocrisy, look no further than Johnson voting for austerity, and then claiming to be against it. A party that has damaged our NHS and capped the pay of NHS workers, clapping for them in our hour of need.

[Lowbankclaret]

I thought of you when it was announced that your employer was planning redundancies. Good luck with whatever the outcome is.

Thank you.

I am one of the lucky ones that might have the option to retire early.

The one thing furlough has shown me is I will not miss going to work.

Just need the adviser to agree to my plan.

[Paul Waine]

It's an absolute stat-fest is this virus. Something for everyone, whatever your agenda.

Did you notice the name of Ferguson's lockdown busting visitor?

[TheFamilyCat]

no-one's mentioned this news item https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nigel-farage- ... 1461.html

Honestly between Nige,Cat Calderwood & Neil Ferguson,IDK who's the biggest eejit,is it any wonder a small minority flaunt the rules,when this is the example that our senior political figures send to the masses.

Not the first "Farage Breaks Lockdown Rule" story. He announced on his radio programme that he had been exercising more than once a day. If I was cynical I'd say if all boils down to craving publicity.

[RingoMcCartney]

The majority of people think we went into lockdown too late. That’s a criticism of the government. So actually the majority of people are more than prepared to criticise the government when they think it is warranted.

The majority still believe the government's handling of the unprecedented Coronavirus epidemic is "very" or "somewhat" well.

Around 60%

You Gov friday 1st May 2020.

[RingoMcCartney]

Sorry, Ringo, let me explain. The press you appear to wish to gag is the one that addresses difficult questions, assesses our performance, examines not only what has gone well but also the disastrous errors. The sychophantic, compliant press, shrinking admittedly, is the only one you are comfortable with.
Hence the "Let's pretend we'll ask awkward questions later. Not sure when but later." cop-out.

Stay safe etc.

Instead of feeling the need to be "explaining," you had all day to be doing a bit of researching Eddie.

I asked.

But do me a favour, show me where I "wish the press to be gagged" would you?

You failed. Then again, you were always going to. I never said any such thing.

[RingoMcCartney]

"You need to do this over time. It will be months, perhaps even years, before we can really say who has the highest death toll."



Why the obsession about the highest? Why not just face up to the fact that ours is horrific and look at all the reasons why that might be the case?

Why the assumption that I'm obsessed with the highest?

As for looking "at all the reasons why"?

That's exactly what I'm saying!

Excess deaths will be a key determining factor for instance.

A consistent way that deaths are attributed to Covid 19

Obesity.

Rates of diabetes.

Ethnic make up of population.

Age demographics.

Population densities.

Poverty.

Whether a country had already experienced similar epidemics like MERS or SARS and had infrastructure already in place which certain countries have.

Whether or not a colder/warmer climate helps or hinders the contagious nature of this new virus.

Whether having global international hub, (LONDON) through which 1000s of people from all over the world pass through on a daily basis, is a disadvantage.

Rates of single occupancy homes

Rates of multiple occupancy homes

But when, and only when, the scientists and the statisticians have all the relevant information, to hand. And that will be quite some time yet, can an objective and fair assessment of all governments around the worlds handling of the pandemic be made.


One things for certain, I doubt if anyone who posts on here has all the relevant data. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they haven't. Why? Because it's an ongoing pandemic and scientists are still learning about covid 19.

[RingoMcCartney]

But you're not just trying to shut down comparisons to other countries, you're trying to shut down all criticisms (whilst praising the government is fine for some reason you've failed to explain).

I note the Treasury Select Committee doesn't really agree with your approach.

I havent had time to read what the Treasury Select Committee has had to say to be honest.

However, I'd be very surprised if theyd said, "we believe its entirely appropriate and fair to use raw mortality rates to draw conclusions and judgements on the UK government's handling of the 2020 Coronavirus pandemic crisis. Even before the said crisis has actually ended"

But if you post a link to them saying that, because that really would then be them not "really agreeing with my approach," as you claim.

[AndrewJB]

The majority still believe the government's handling of the unprecedented Coronavirus epidemic is "very" or "somewhat" well.

Around 60%

You Gov friday 1st May 2020.

It's going to depend on how they get the information in order to reach their conclusions. By today's headlines, the fact that a government advisor shagged a woman is more important to most papers than us becoming number one in Europe for Covid deaths suggests a lot of people aren't well informed. Consider the Sun barf fest on Johnson earlier this week. Anyone reading that will be wondering when the Pope will make him a saint.

[dsr]

It's going to depend on how they get the information in order to reach their conclusions. By today's headlines, the fact that a government advisor shagged a woman is more important to most papers than us becoming number one in Europe for Covid deaths suggests a lot of people aren't well informed. Consider the Sun barf fest on Johnson earlier this week. Anyone reading that will be wondering when the Pope will make him a saint.

For one thing, we aren't number one in Europe for coronavirus deaths because the Spanish count a lot fewer deaths than we do. For another, the papers have put coronavirus on the front page every day for weeks and they jump at the chance of putting something else up there.

[AndrewJB]

Andrew, your brand of far left politics was soundly rejected at the December general election, by the British electorate.

Given theyve just elected Keir "charisma-free zone" Starmer, as their new leader. You're brand of far left politics, appears to have now been soundly rejected by, none other than
The Labour Party.

"Far left politics" - This is simply you insulting my opinions by giving them a name that doesn't fit, and sidestepping the points I've made. You are playing the man and not the ball, and even in that you're completely inaccurate. I've never advocated the abolition of private property or anything close, so my politics are not "far left" but somewhere to the left of centre. My politics are also not a brand. We all have a sense of ethics, common sense, reason, history, etc - and that should inform our political views. It's not a brand, but my honest opinion. You won't find me adjusting my opinions to prevailing winds. Can you say the same?

[AndrewJB]

For one thing, we aren't number one in Europe for coronavirus deaths because the Spanish count a lot fewer deaths than we do. For another, the papers have put coronavirus on the front page every day for weeks and they jump at the chance of putting something else up there.

Okay, so you believe the Spanish death count could be higher than ours, so because of that belief ours isn't the highest? I guess we'll see. It's all a bit ghoulish though.

I think the fact many of our newspapers are owned by billionaires who support the government has more to do with the fact their headlines distract from government bad news. Crazy that we live in a supposedly free country, and most of our newspapers are like PRAVDA.

[jackmiggins]

Whilst I believe the gov’t have got many things wrong, and no doubt will continue to do so (they are only politicians and have limited capabilities), I strongly doubt the numbers put out by other nations. This isn’t a competition and there will be plenty of time to analyse the local and global actions in the next few years.
For those of us most affected, I would ask that we take each day at a time and stick together. Let’s sort out the aftermath on another day

[Damo]

Mad how many people see this pandemic an excuse to implement communism (universal basic income and nationalise everything)
Each to their own like

[Taffy on the wing]

Scientists and doctors from around the world think we went into lockdown far too late and many are very critical of how both the USA and us have handled things.

Yeah..... but Not New Clarets Mum......

[Taffy on the wing]

Mad how many people see this pandemic an excuse to implement communism (universal basic income and nationalise everything)
Each to their own like

What's your suggestion?.........keep bailing out Airlines and Banks?....who then turn around and screw you for every penny they can?
When does the focus turn back to the people?.....they who actually pay Taxes!......Wake up.

[Taffy on the wing]

The only thing that comes across as a dogs breakfast are your posts. You are so bitter and twisted towards anything this government does. I did notice though you decided to skip past the part about you taking part in a con. Don't you feel slightly hypocritical to be taking advantage of something you are so against ?

You're a one trick Pony!.......you contribute nothing, & attack everything which doesn't fit in with your Rupert Murdoch centric view of the World.
I'll bet you've NEVER had an original thought of your own.

[Grumps]

We have had it rammed down our throats by certain media, and certain posters on here, how badly this country, and particularly the government has done compared with other countries in Europe in dealing with this outbreak.

Bearing this in mind, it will interesting to hear their views on the coming out of lockdown, and should we follow those same European countries.

If we did, we could very well see the following happen in the next few weeks....

Football restarting behind closed doors in weeks
Barbers and hairdressers open on Monday
Being able to hug your grandchildren
Bars opening, on reduced capacity
Cinemas and restaurants opening
Trips to the beach

I could go on, but all of these are being put in place by other European countries

Now, I imagine if Boris had come up with these plans he'd have been called an idiot

The question is, do we follow these countries, as we've been told we should have done at the start.... Or come up with our own plans?.

[Alanstevensonsgloves]

This nails it for me....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52543692

It's makes complete and utter sense. PROTECT THE VULNERABLE, let everyone else get on with their lives and stop companies going bust, people losing their jobs, suffering domestic abuse, suffering mental health issues..... and let's get hospitals treating all those illnesses and injuries that have been put on hold in the meantime. Where was the cry for us to bring the country to its knees when we had 50,000 EXCESS DEATHS in the winter of 2017?

Www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/30 ... since-1976

And yes I have deliberately quoted the Grauniad and BBC so I cannot be accused of any right wing bias.

There was a reason for the initial lockdown and I supported that, but now is the time for us to open back up.

[Grumps]

This nails it for me....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52543692

It's makes complete and utter sense. Protect the vulnerable, let everyone else get on with their lives and stop companies going bust, people losing their jobs, suffering domestic abuse, suffering mental health issues..... Where was the cry for us to bring the country to its knees when we had 50,000 EXCESS DEATHS in the winter of 2017?

Www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/30 ... since-1976

Two very interesting articles, but I'd put my tin hat on if I was you

[MalaysiaMo]

Mad how many people see this pandemic an excuse to implement communism (universal basic income and nationalise everything)
Each to their own like

I know. Crazy how some people would rather be socialists than dead. Each to their own I guess.

[Swizzlestick]

Mad how many people see this pandemic an excuse to implement communism (universal basic income and nationalise everything)
Each to their own like

Hasn’t Trump, of all people, utilised a universal basic income plan? You never know, maybe there’s something in these ‘communist’ ideas.

[claretonthecoast1882]

You're a one trick Pony!.......you contribute nothing, & attack everything which doesn't fit in with your Rupert Murdoch centric view of the World.
I'll bet you've NEVER had an original thought of your own.

Fair play taffy, you finally had a go at a male poster. Thought you only aimed your anger at females. As far as your post goes though it is fairly stupid so I will leave my answer there.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Reasons why comparisons aren't either helpful, or possible.

Yeah but that professor knows nothing compared to our experts on here, he would do well to read their point scoring posts on here and learn a thing or 2

[Spijed]

This nails it for me....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52543692

It's makes complete and utter sense. PROTECT THE VULNERABLE, let everyone else get on with their lives and stop companies going bust, people losing their jobs, suffering domestic abuse, suffering mental health issues..... and let's get hospitals treating all those illnesses and injuries that have been put on hold in the meantime. Where was the cry for us to bring the country to its knees when we had 50,000 EXCESS DEATHS in the winter of 2017?

Www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/30 ... since-1976

And yes I have deliberately quoted the Grauniad and BBC so I cannot be accused of any right wing bias.

There was a reason for the initial lockdown and I supported that, but now is the time for us to open back up.

.
Would you allow sports events to have crowds and trains to be back to normal with crowded carriages?

[Swizzlestick]

Yeah but that professor knows nothing compared to our experts on here, he would do well to read their point scoring posts on here and learn a thing or 2

Are you capable of contributing to a thread without making a snide remark about somebody? It’s utterly tedious.

Point scoring? You completely made up a post about Scotland’s proposed testing capacity the other day. I’d rather see point scoring than somebody who adds nothing but personal attacks to a debate.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Are you capable of contributing to a thread without making a snide remark about somebody? It’s utterly tedious.

Point scoring? You completely made up a post about Scotland’s proposed testing capacity the other day. I’d rather see point scoring than somebody who adds nothing but personal attacks to a debate.

Hello turtles sidekick.

[Spijed]

And the one thing we must not lose sight of when easing restrictions is that this virus is far more dangerous than normal flu.

[claretonthecoast1882]

And the one thing we must not lose sight of when easing restrictions is that this virus is far more dangerous than normal flu.

Hopefully people use common sense when the restrictions are eased, I have my doubts but you can hope.

[jackmiggins]

I’ve extremely big doubts. Rather than ‘herd immunity’, it will be ‘herd stupidity’.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

All 400,000 gowns flown from Turkey for NHS fail UK standards.

The latest sorry clusterfuck from the worst prime minister in history...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -standards

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Are you capable of contributing to a thread without making a snide remark about somebody? It’s utterly tedious.

Point scoring? You completely made up a post about Scotland’s proposed testing capacity the other day. I’d rather see point scoring than somebody who adds nothing but personal attacks to a debate.

Just block the fool.