Burnley plan to take the knee

[Colburn_Claret]

That’s not how freedom of speech works. It’s not the freedom to say whatever you want without criticism.

In fact, it looks like you want to take away the freedom of speech rights of those who want to brand others racist.

(the rest of your post was nonsense as well, of course)

Of course

[GordonvaleClaret]

I only read through a few posts on the first page then decided to jump in blind.

Firstly, the fellow that died. What is his past history? From what I've read, he was a rather violent person with convictions for armed robbery. A big strong lad too. Why were several "cops" cowering behind a car for several minutes?

Secondly, what's this BLM got to do with racism?
BLM suggests to me issues of colour prejudice.
Racism suggests to me that I'm at fault for not liking Krauts and Frogs!

Get real! Colour prejudice, racism and slavery (for starters) have formed part of the human psyche since the year dot. What makes you think this will change anytime before the end of the world?

[martin_p]

OK, I admit it - I'm bored and I've had a bad day.

But I find it genuinely bizarre why the use of such a common and unremarkable word should have piqued your interest in this manner when we were discussing what is a very serious topic.

Sorry for the level of flippancy, but I honestly don't know why it was so intriguing to you. It was very workaday use of the English language as far I can see.

Because the word needs context. If I just write ‘this is my favourite jumper’ then you haven’t a clue what my favourite jumper is.

So to clarify, you think the whole George Floyd situation is an American domestic issue.

[RingoMcCartney]

Imagine that you believed ALL lives matter. Even when it was suggested by BLM matter supporters that if your house was on fire you wouldn't expect the fire brigade to put water on everybodys house. You believe other houses are on fire too.

Imagine you did not agree with Black lives matters policy of defunding the police. As you believed putting the decision as to where and when funds would be spent in their hands would not be inappropriate.


Imagine you did not with their policy of dismantling capitalism. As you believed capitalism had dragged millions around the globe out of abject poverty.

Imagine you did not agree with their policy of disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure. As you believed that the natural family structure of a mother , father and children was the best for children's outcome.

Imagine you believe that BLM had been hijacked by far left Marxists using genuine concerns for injustices. And you believe Marxism were responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people.


So you decide that , with all that in mind , your conscience would not allow you to be seen to approve of what "taking the knee" represents.

How ironic that youd, probably, receive the same ostracism , the same freezing out that Colin Kaepernick received, when his conscience would not allow him to be seen to approve what the American national anthem represents.

[Devils_Advocate]

He's back Eddie but go easy on him this time and try not to destroy him like on the last thread

[martin_p]

Imagine that you believed ALL lives matter. Even when it was suggested by BLM matter supporters that if your house was on fire you wouldn't expect the fire brigade to put water on everybodys house. You believe other houses are on fire too.

Imagine you did not agree with Black lives matters policy of defunding the police. As you believed putting the decision as to where and when funds would be spent in their hands would not be inappropriate.


Imagine you did not with their policy of dismantling capitalism. As you believed capitalism had dragged millions around the globe out of abject poverty.

Imagine you did not agree with their policy of disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure. As you believed that the natural family structure of a mother , father and children was the best for children's outcome.

Imagine you believe that BLM had been hijacked by far left Marxists using genuine concerns for injustices. And you believe Marxism were responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people.


So you decide that , with all that in mind , your conscience would not allow you to be seen to approve of what "taking the knee" represents.

How ironic that youd, probably, receive the same ostracism , the same freezing out that Colin Kaepernick received, when his conscience would not allow him to be seen to approve what the American national anthem represents.

You don’t have to agree with every last bit of what an organisation stands for (if that indeed is what BLM stands for) to support the main message. That’s why people are taking the knee, to show their opposition to racists and racism.

[MACCA]

Could have taken the knee, and the FA could have done/promoted something similar to this

Let's take describing and judging someone by the colour of their skin out of this world!

There is only 1 race, the human race.

[RingoMcCartney]

He's back Eddie but go easy on him this time and try not to destroy him like on the last thread

[RingoMcCartney]

You don’t have to agree with every last bit of what an organisation stands for (if that indeed is what BLM stands for) to support the main message. That’s why people are taking the knee, to show their opposition to racists and racism.

That's your opinion.

The player in my example sees things differently.

He has the right to "do a Kaepernick"

[TVC15]

How can you say free speech isn't disappearing, even on this board anyone who points out legitimate reasons why they are against taking the knee, they are branded as racist.
One of my biggest issues with it, is its so false. Not to all obviously, but in this era where people are desperate to fit in, frightened to stand out, where they have to be SEEN , I think many are just following like sheep. It might look good for the photos in the press, and they can all boast about how virtuous they are on fb, but how many are going to really change their attitude to BAME. Not many at all, but it looks good.
People say that football is a racially integrated workplace, well there are many other factories around the country where there is a strong racial mix. There are areas of the country where factories could be BAME dominant. The more people mix, the less the fraction.
I don't believe we live in a racist society. The problems that Black youths face in inner cities, are much the same problems that white youths face in similar housing estates around the country. Youths always think they are targeted by the Police, mo matter what colour they are, and its so easy to play the race card. If you look at Black youths outside that environment , then I'm sure their education, employment, life goals and achievements, are as good as any white youths.
It isn't the colour of their skin that holds them back, but their attitude and the chip on their shoulders. If you want to help these people then sort out the issues of these inner city ghettos, fight the social issues, and the racism will take care of itself. Taking a knee isn't going to take a knife out of a single kids hand, or stop a dealer poisoning the mind and body of another kid. We have far, far bigger issues than racism. So you need to ask yourself do you want to help these people, or would you rather look virtuous.

I haven’t bothered to read all of the above because as soon as I read the first couple of lines I knew it would be the usual stuff from you.
But hey it’s still on the board and nobody has stopped you from saying it.

Personally I don’t care if free speech is eroded - and I think lots of people agree with me. You should not be “free” to say what you want....in reality you probably never have been but for many years people got away with a lot more than they do now.
That’s called society progressing in my book. If this board is anything to go by we still have some way to go.

Anyway looks like the thread will soon be locked.

[ClaretAndJew]

Thing is, people have gotten away with saying things for too long that now they are being challenged about it they think it's infringing on their liberties.

[MACCA]

Thing is, people have gotten away with saying things for too long that now they are being challenged about it they think it's infringing on their liberties.

That's exactly it.

I imagine theres lots of 50+ year olds who have had to change their behaviour, language and thoughts this last few decades, and that's been through education, being challenged and waking up to the issue.

Hopefully in another few decades the problem will be totally erradocated in this country because of what we are doing today.

[martin_p]

How can you say free speech isn't disappearing, even on this board anyone who points out legitimate reasons why they are against taking the knee, they are branded as racist.

This is my favourite ’trotted our every time’ completely bonkers argument. The thought that free speech equates to you saying what you want and everyone else shutting up. I want my free speech but you can’t have yours!

[Rowls]

Because the word needs context. If I just write ‘this is my favourite jumper’ then you haven’t a clue what my favourite jumper is.

So to clarify, you think the whole George Floyd situation is an American domestic issue.

I believe the word had a clear context. I believe I've also already stated that the George Floyd affair is an American domestic problem.

We import it and the attitudes and aggitations of the BLM movement at our peril.

[Jakubclaret]

I believe the word had a clear context. I believe I've also already stated that the George Floyd affair is an American domestic problem.

We import it and the attitudes and aggitations of the BLM movement at our peril.

Exactly, we should try to forget about what happened over there & anywhere else it’s not our problem, taking onboard other countries affairs & problems will have a similar effect at poking a stick at a hornets nest, you could have all the footballers across the leagues showing some statement of recognition of what’s happened, in reality won’t make a difference elsewhere.

[Swizzlestick]

I think some people need to have a read of Ian Wright’s Twitter feed this morning to see the reality of the situation.

[evensteadiereddie]

He's back Eddie but go easy on him this time and try not to destroy him like on the last thread

I will - his David Luiz - style attempt at fending off quite justified, constructive criticism was quite laughable but I'm sure the issue of responsible parenting will crop up again soon...........

In the meantime, I'll let the investigators sift through the wreckage of his latest disaster but the only thing that matters to me now is that the season's restarted and everybody's well.

I'm a little disturbed about our Sean being a bit miffed but, other than that, happy days indeed !

UTC

[Uwe Noble]

This is my favourite ’trotted our every time’ completely bonkers argument. The thought that free speech equates to you saying what you want and everyone else shutting up. I want my free speech but you can’t have yours!

So clearly, you respect the right if people on this board NOT to kneel.

[martin_p]

So clearly, you respect the right if people on this board NOT to kneel.

I wasn’t aware anyone on this board was being asked to kneel. But if they were, then yes of course.

[Rowls]

Seriously, if we take up the protest of the American BLM movement on behalf of some black Americans, why not pressure the whole UK to take up also the plight of the Kurds, Muslims in China, children coerced into gangs in Central America, the caste system in India, Christians in Nigeria, Christians in Sri Lanka...

We need to be careful about how we choose to define ourselves. If we define ourselves by adopting the lines of racial division that plague America then the same problems will afflict us.

This is why I detest American politics. The BLM is a social manifestion of what they call a "wedge issue". They try and force people onto either side of an imaginary line. See for example, how the debate about abortion control in the US is turned from a complex moral question into a simple "pro life" or "pro choice". Pick one. Pick a team.

This allows people to feel a tribal allegiance to what ought to be complex and nuanced political stances. When you have a tribal alliegiance to a cause then debate goes out of the window.

The trick with the BLM movement is to convince people that anyone who disagrees with their methods and their specific politics thinks black lives don't matter. That's sinister. But read through this thread and see how many times posters feel empowered to imply -without a shred of proof- that people who take issue with BLM are racists or are happy to see black people murdered by the police.

There's a real thrill in denouncing racists and being part of a tribe. That's the trick. Denounce a "racist" online and feel the rush of dopamine. Post a BLM meme on facebook and feel the rush of dopamine as the thumbs up appear.

But people are better when they make better choices. When we decide what we consciously choose to allow to define us.

If you want to define yourself based on an injustice on the other side of the world in a very specific country then go ahead. But don't mistake your rituals and displays for anything other than what they are. And don't presume that others who don't want to join in with the rituals and displays don't care about injustice. It's simply a case of being careful about how we define ourselves and refusing to be bullied.

[Rowls]

Here's a genuine question for those who are in favour of importing the BLM displays and rituals into the Premier League and the UK:

What was wrong, or insufficient, with the "Say No To Racism" campaign?

Proper debate welcomed.

[Burnley Ace]

“Wedge Issue” - it all started when you had to be Team Brad or Team Jen!!

[Swizzlestick]

It’s clearly been ineffective?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... ick-it-out

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Lip service is generally paid to the Kick it out campaign it feels like.

I'm not saying I support all of the decisions for raising awareness about the BLM campaign.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It’s clearly been ineffective?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... ick-it-out

You'll find that some people blame Brexit.

[aggi]

Exactly, we should try to forget about what happened over there & anywhere else it’s not our problem, taking onboard other countries affairs & problems will have a similar effect at poking a stick at a hornets nest, you could have all the footballers across the leagues showing some statement of recognition of what’s happened, in reality won’t make a difference elsewhere.

It isn't just a problem in America though. There are plenty of studies, inquiries and statistics to show that racism is present in the UK on an individual and institutional basis.

We're not as bad as the UK but we're by no means great (regardless of how many white blokes on a football messageboard try and claim it isn't really an issue).

If you want a specific example related to football in the UK then look at Dalian Atkinson. A black footballer who died after being tasered by the police. Linked to that, black people are three times more likely to have a Taser used against them by police than white people in the UK.

[martin_p]

Seriously, if we take up the protest of the American BLM movement on behalf of some black Americans, why not pressure the whole UK to take up also the plight of the Kurds, Muslims in China, children coerced into gangs in Central America, the caste system in India, Christians in Nigeria, Christians in Sri Lanka...

We need to be careful about how we choose to define ourselves. If we define ourselves by adopting the lines of racial division that plague America then the same problems will afflict us.

This is why I detest American politics. The BLM is a social manifestion of what they call a "wedge issue". They try and force people onto either side of an imaginary line. See for example, how the debate about abortion control in the US is turned from a complex moral question into a simple "pro life" or "pro choice". Pick one. Pick a team.

This allows people to feel a tribal allegiance to what ought to be complex and nuanced political stances. When you have a tribal alliegiance to a cause then debate goes out of the window.

The trick with the BLM movement is to convince people that anyone who disagrees with their methods and their specific politics thinks black lives don't matter. That's sinister. But read through this thread and see how many times posters feel empowered to imply -without a shred of proof- that people who take issue with BLM are racists or are happy to see black people murdered by the police.

There's a real thrill in denouncing racists and being part of a tribe. That's the trick. Denounce a "racist" online and feel the rush of dopamine. Post a BLM meme on facebook and feel the rush of dopamine as the thumbs up appear.

But people are better when they make better choices. When we decide what we consciously choose to allow to define us.

If you want to define yourself based on an injustice on the other side of the world in a very specific country then go ahead. But don't mistake your rituals and displays for anything other than what they are. And don't presume that others who don't want to join in with the rituals and displays don't care about injustice. It's simply a case of being careful about how we define ourselves and refusing to be bullied.

We’re not taking up the protest of the American BLM movement. This is much wider.

[Rowls]

We’re not taking up the protest of the American BLM movement. This is much wider.

[martin_p]

We’re not taking up the protest of the American BLM movement. The movement in this country is much wider.

[Jakubclaret]

It isn't just a problem in America though. There are plenty of studies, inquiries and statistics to show that racism is present in the UK on an individual and institutional basis.

We're not as bad as the UK but we're by no means great (regardless of how many white blokes on a football messageboard try and claim it isn't really an issue).

If you want a specific example related to football in the UK then look at Dalian Atkinson. A black footballer who died after being tasered by the police. Linked to that, black people are three times more likely to have a Taser used against them by police than white people in the UK.

Yes it is, you'll have cases far & few between, if you or anybody wants to embark upon a moral crusade campaigning against every single injustice carried out in the world you'll be a busy man, without stereotyping against any particular colour there's probably a valid reason why black people are 3 times more likely to have a taser used against them & it's nothing do with colour, could be there put more resistance up & proportionally involved in more serious crimes than white people often using serious weapons when confronted, stands to reason if that's the case why the likelihood is 3 times higher, often simple reasons exist explaining this but certain people wish to bring race into it inferring sinister agendas.

[martin_p]

Yes it is, you'll have cases far & few between, if you or anybody wants to embark upon a moral crusade campaigning against every single injustice carried out in the world you'll be a busy man, without stereotyping against any particular colour there's probably a valid reason why black people are 3 times more likely to have a taser used against them & it's nothing do with colour, could be there put more resistance up & proportionally involved in more serious crimes than white people often using serious weapons when confronted, stands to reason if that's the case why the likelihood is 3 times higher, often simple reasons exist explaining this but certain people wish to bring race into it inferring sinister agendas.

Ok, let’s assume you’re right. Why would black people put up more resistance or be involved in more serious crimes?

[Jakubclaret]

Ok, let’s assume you’re right. Why would black people put up more resistance or be involved in more serious crimes?

It's just the way things could be, why are people vegetarians & why are people carnivores? You tell me & we'll both know!

[Rileybobs]

OMG - Martin, get out now.

[TheFamilyCat]

I've missed Jakub.

[Rowls]

We’re not taking up the protest of the American BLM movement. The movement in this country is much wider.

It looks suspiciously very much like the BLM movement to me and most commentators accept it was inspired by the killing of George Floyd.

You'd have to present a lot more evidence to convince me otherwise.

[martin_p]

It looks suspiciously very much like the BLM movement to me and most commentators accept it was inspired by the killing of George Floyd.

You'd have to present a lot more evidence to convince me otherwise.

What has the toppling of a statue in Bristol got to do with George Floyd. As I’ve said before the killing of Floyd certainly triggered the current situation, but to think that’s all it’s about would be to grossly misunderstand.

[RingoMcCartney]

I will - his David Luiz - style attempt at fending off quite justified, constructive criticism was quite laughable but I'm sure the issue of responsible parenting will crop up again soon...........

In the meantime, I'll let the investigators sift through the wreckage of his latest disaster but the only thing that matters to me now is that the season's restarted and everybody's well.

I'm a little disturbed about our Sean being a bit miffed but, other than that, happy days indeed !

UTC

I pointed out that discrimination wasnt unique to BAME people. I highlighted that white working class boys attainment levels are and have been for decades the lowest of all groups. I also mentioned I have a son who falls into this group.

I DID NOT , HOWEVER, SAY HE HIMSELF WAS STRUGGLING.

You in some kind of twisted, Walter Mittyesque, Fantasy, decided to conjure up your own delusional version of my relationship with my son and his educational attainment level.

In doing so you continued this creepy , highly personal , tirade against me from the previous weekend. I stopped reading your posts and repeatedly told you to troll along as to respond to this utterly groundless garbage you were spewing , would give it the credence it didnt deserve.

Have you contacted your lad's school re his underachievement ?

Have you examined YOUR role in his weakness at school ?

Oh dear, me offering you advice regarding your lad's failing education is trolling?

You know nothing, absolutely nothing about my son . What you attempted to do was warped, really warped.

I contacted Tony and the post that broke the camels back was removed , and in thank Tony for that, and the thread was locked.

What was ironic was when Tony posted the thread was being locked , you give it your usual , butter wouldn't melt, "like". Blissfully unaware that it was you persistent harassment, using personal but utterly made up , in your warped mind garbage , that had lead to inflammatory posts being deleted and the threads closure.

LEAVE MY SON OUT OF YOUR WARPED MIND. AND NEVER EVER USE HIM TO TROLL ME AGAIN