Southgate replaces Maguire

[Steddyman]

Tarky played in one of today's friendlies.

https://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/new ... d-running/

Thanks. I hadn't spotted that.

Mad decision then, unless he is sending a message to Tarks to move to a bigger club!

[FactualFrank]

No one said the Chimp had brains....

Racist.

[SalisburyClaret]

Nowt wrong with Coady
Everything wrong with Southgate, he’s not the best manager for England, he’s the best manager for the FA. Such a shame

[Spiral]

I think Tarkowski is better defensively than some (f'k it...most) of the other defenders who have been selected, but consider this: there are approaches to a game where a deep lying centre midfielder can be considered as being a fifth defender, and there are approaches to a game where a deep lying centre midfielder standing in that exact same spot is expected to take the role of the classic midfield playmaker, with his other midfield buddies playing as attacking midfielders/forwards whilst in possession - a system dependent upon the workrate of the forwards recovering the ball out of possession. Both conceptions of "deep lying midfielder" find themselves floating around the exact same area of the pitch relative to the overall shape of the game, but it isn't their position on the field which defines their role in any given system, it's their role in relation to their teammates which gives them their worth. Why would this principle applicable to a deep lying central midfielder be any different in the case of a central defender? This is what Burnley fans ignore. This is why Tarky hasn't been selected. It isn't because nobody likes Burnley; it's because he hasn't yet proven his worth to Southgate's system which views defenders as competent midfielders whilst in possession. I'd love England to go old school and get some proper $hithouse defenders in the team if for no other reason than to see some proper tackles going in from time to time, but this is the way we play nowadays, so we might as well make it work properly. You either commit to it wholly or you're wasting your time.

[superdimitri]

I can understand why Mee doesn't get a foot in because his strengths aren't with the ball at his feet but Tarkowski is good with his feet and can clearly play the way southgate wants.

The only valid reason I can think is just he's not used to playing in a back 3.

And yeah, we need a plan B for balls to the wall games against good opposition. For those games if we had Burnley's back four we'd have a better chance than the usual suspects.

Southgate is just approaching selection as though we'll always be on the front foot, but any team in the finals will be capable of beating us. As a defender I'm surprised he overlooks good defenders for those games alone.

[Row Z]

I can understand why Mee doesn't get a foot in because his strengths aren't with the ball at his feet but Tarkowski is good with his feet and can clearly play the way southgate wants.

The only valid reason I can think is just he's not used to playing in a back 3.

Agree with the first point.. lots of previous posts suggesting Tarky can't play, yet he can pick a pass far better than Keane and Mings and looks far more comfortable on the ball. Mee on the other hand turns over possession far more regularly.

Yes week to week our tactics are different at club level but that doesn't mean its the style Tarky is most comfortable with. The posts about shithouse defenders do him a disservice, he does the ugly side well under Dyche's orders for "defenders to defend", but he is a far more capable centre half. How many times have you seen him turn an opposition forward with a little piece of skill that also means we retain possession.

On the subject of a back 3, Mings, Keane, Maguire, Dier and Gomez dont play in a back 3, and neither do England, so not sure of the relevance.

As others have said, it's the inclusion of Mings, Keane and at a push Dier that is baffling. Also frustrating as a Burnley fan as it adds fuel to the fire for him leaving to further his international career.. although that hasn't stopped Dunk signing a new deal and he must be similarly p1ssed off with his omission.

[jojomk1]

Has Dyche bummed Southgates wife?

Simple answer no.......it was Pickford!

Christ, which one has SD bummed

And please don't say both

[Siddo]

Southgate is a gawky bucktoothed rent boy, and little more than a nodding dog for a third rate FA.

With his wobbly adams apple and manic wonky grin he looks for all the world like a product of incest from the Munster family.

And in one post we can all see why we are called Dingles.

[superdimitri]

On the subject of a back 3, Mings, Keane, Maguire, Dier and Gomez dont play in a back 3, and neither do England, so not sure of the relevance.

England have played a back 3 a few times and I'm pretty sure they will again if you look at the players that have been selected. Even Coady; Maguire's replacement plays in a back 3.

Haven't followed Mings at Aston Villa but he came from Bournemouth who often played 3CB.
Keane definitely has for Everton, just not recently.
Maguire played at Hull with 3CB.
Dier is an Anchor Man for England and Tottenham Hotspur and drops back if he's playing with 2 CB behind him. He's also a product of continental football where they often play with 3CB.
Gomez has played for England in a back 3 and likely u21s too.

So they all have a lot more experience playing in that kind of system than Tarkowski.

It may not seem like much but I think players develop an understanding for flexible positioning if they play different systems. It's probably easier to do that if you've played in similar systems before and not so easy to do that if you don't.

Now don't get me wrong I think Tarkowski should be in there anyway, but the topic of conversation was trying to understand why he's not, so that's the closest logic to Southgate's decision making I can think of.

[Row Z]

If Gomez has for England then Tarky can... the rest are loose links other than Coady.

I think it'll be more to do with how much protection he gets here versus how much he'd get at international level. Keane was outstanding for us, but when he moved to Everton he was exposed and really struggled to establish himself without the protection our midfield provides. All the CBs selected play in sides on the front foot, so are more isolated when they do defend.

Mings is probably the exception which makes it all the more confusing how hes retained his place in the squad, especially given villa's defensive record.

[claret2018]

Like all international managers, Southgate has players who he trusts and will call on even when they’re not in form
For their clubs. That’s all there is to it.

Also, I don’t want Burnley players to be picked for international duty and risk injury, especially in pointless games like these.

[superdimitri]

I think it'll be more to do with how much protection he gets here versus how much he'd get at international level.

Indeed, but that theory has already been discussed earlier in the thread.

Only thing going for Ming's is his height. No idea if he's faster than Tarkowski or not. Keane certainly is, he rescued us a few times with his pace.

[Steve1956]

Racist.

errrrrr.
Leeds fan!

[FactualFrank]

errrrrr.
Leeds fan!

As always with you Steve... Whoosh.

[tim_noone]

Christ, which one has SD bummed

And please don't say both

genuine......seen what i did there..

[Steve1956]

As always with you Steve... Whoosh.

If im a racist...your a Leeds fan....is that wrong?...if you could can you explain both your replies to me on this thread
1. Racist
2.As always with you..Whoosh
Sorry for not understanding what they mean?
Genuine question.

[FactualFrank]

If im a racist...your a Leeds fan....is that wrong?...if you could can you explain both your replies to me on this thread
1. Racist
2.As always with you..Whoosh
Sorry for not understanding what they mean?
Genuine question.

It was me pretending to be offended as you were referring to him as a chimp. You normally get people who will pretend to take offense at things like this, that's all. My fault though for thinking you'd know I was kidding

[tim_noone]

If im a racist...your a Leeds fan....is that wrong?...if you could can you explain both your replies to me on this thread
1. Racist
2.As always with you..Whoosh
Sorry for not understanding what they mean?
Genuine question.

Tbf ..steve it did go over your head....

[Zenwisdom]

Playing 3 at the back requires pace which Tarks does not have otherwise he would be playing Kean does have pace has we know.

[Steve1956]

It was me pretending to be offended as you were referring to him as a chimp. You normally get people who will pretend to take offense at things like this, that's all. My fault though for thinking you'd know I was kidding

Please accept my apologise's for calling you a Leeds fan,and as for Timothy's post it went way over my head and I still don't get the...as always with you & Whoosh

[Mattster]

I think Southgate has made it pretty clear now that, just like he isn't interested in goalkeepers who can actually keep goal, he isn't interested in defenders who can actually defend.

[alboclaret]

Why can’t people wrap their head around the fact that Southgate wants his CH to play a certain way. He picks players that play that way at club level. He doesn’t want to play a defender who has his RB and 2 CMs within 10 yards of him 95% of the game. Different CH play a different way. Whys that so hard to understand? If we wanted a target man and bought Brewster to do it, everyone would understand that doesn’t work. So why is it people can’t fathom CH are not all the same?

This

All I'd add is that our centre back are very well protected. Southgate not going to play that way, ever. That's why hes pick the athletic mings type players who when exposed or even recoving have the pace to do so.
Re Pope. Obviously is distribution is poor. He could only be pushing close because his GKing is that much better than pickford.

[alboclaret]

If tarks was that good hed be gone for the 50m release.

[Mattster]

This

All I'd add is that our centre back are very well protected. Southgate not going to play that way, ever. That's why hes pick the athletic mings type players who when exposed or even recoving have the pace to do so.
Re Pope. Obviously is distribution is poor. He could only be pushing close because his GKing is that much better than pickford.

WhiIst I can see the arguement for wanting a more athletic CB (though personally I don't think Tarkowski is as slow as is being made out) for all his supposed athleticism Mings doesn't do anything with it.

Tackles, last man tackles, dribblers tackled, interceptions and recoveries are all things he's below average on and that's in a team where a CB should be putting up big numbers in those categories (ie. One under a lot of pressure). So what does it matter if he's quick if he can't intercept, recover or tackle to win the ball back when he gets there?

[BurnleyFC]

Ohh you’re hard. Donut.

Are you still driving a Citroen Saxo?

Weirdo.

[Pstotto]

The less of our players on international duty, the better.

Magnesium wire... hothead name, mugshot face and a duffer in anorexic form until the pies hit at 25.

[FactualFrank]

The less of our players on international duty, the better.

Is it that simple?

[Pstotto]

Less injuries, less time wasting, less in the shop window, less wage envy, less wag envy.

On the other hand, Burnley might want them to be internationals to up their value and to attract other players to join a team of internationals.

[FactualFrank]

Less injuries, less time wasting, less in the shop window, less wage envy, less wag envy.

On the other hand, Burnley might want them to be internationals to up their value and to attract other players to join a team of internationals.

ok

[dsr]

Given a choice between a centre half who will make it his life's work to stop every shot, and a centre half who will try and take the ball past the centre forward and succeed 9 times out of 10, Southgate will pick the ball player. We might let more goals in, but it will look pretty.

(Same argument for goalkeepers as well. We all know Pope can play the simple risk-free passes just as well as Pickford; he's perfectly capable of kicking it 20 yards to a man who is unmarked. But Pickford completes more of the dangerous passes that will give a goal away if they go wrong. As well as giving away more goals when they do go wrong!)