Have we (the fans) reached a tipping point?

[Mala591]

I’m still thinking about our second half display against Brighton. Dyche reportedly said he instructed the players to slacken off the framework and play with more freedom/spontaneity/instinctiveness, the result (on this occasion) was impressive and very enjoyable to watch.

Have we (the fans) reached that ‘tipping point’ where we want more open, attacking, creative team performances AND we also accept that this may (marginally?) increase the chance of relegation from the Premier League?

I’m sure Dyche can coach the team to play in a more unpredictable, attacking style but it is a high risk strategy which would eventually (in his own opinion) lead to relegation.

Would YOU prefer the status quo or would you prefer a riskier but more entertaining football strategy going forward.

[onewillieirvine]

With the current players at his disposal, if we played with more freedom etc we'd be down for sure. Just my opinion, so it's a no from me.

[Tribesmen]

Whatever Sean wants i am happy to go along with it

[karatekid]

Is survival based on playing our type of football good enough for everyone year in year out?
For me? No. I’m getting a bit fed up of backs to the wall football. I would like the players to have more freedom to go forward instead of always turning back to face our own half.

[Chester Perry]

of the number of threads on a single topic?

EDIT and the number of times we can put up with the same stand off of opposing views

[claretonthecoast1882]

Is survival based on playing our type of football good enough for everyone year in year out?
For me? No. I’m getting a bit fed up of backs to the wall football. I would like the players to have more freedom to go forward instead of always turning back to face our own half.

7th and 10th in 2 of the last 3 seasons of this backs to the wall football, or are you just a bit fed up with this season ?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The season we finished 7th showed us what Dyche can do with the right players at his disposal.
More of that, or the one we finished 10th is fine.

If we have to go through the odd season where the football is a bit naff, but we stay up, then I'm fine with that.

Part of the problem I suspect on here with some is the short term memory loss.

[karatekid]

7th and 10th in 2 of the last 3 seasons of this backs to the wall football, or are you just a bit fed up with this season ?

Yes, maybe you are right. I'm really happy to be in the PL but my goodness the football we play is boring most of the time. I don’t know what the solution is as we obviously cannot afford the type of player to bring sexy football to Burnley.

[DCWat]

When the opportunity arises, we can play some nice football. I’d like to see more of it but the priority is to get the points to stay up.

Dyche talks of mixed football and I buy into that. What we’ve seen a lot less of lately is the nicer side of that mixed football.

If we get the opportunity to bring in better footballers, hopefully we can see more ‘easier on the eye’ football. Doing that without losing our solidity is the challenge.

The less attractive side of our football is fine when we are picking up results, it’s when we are not that criticisms arise, and perhaps quicker than they might if we were playing beautiful football but losing 5-4.

You hear it from the pundits, praising style over substance. When it came to Bournemouth last season for example, all fur coat and no knickers!

[CaptJohn]

I think you've hit on a good point here regarding the style of play changing as we did something similar in the 2nd half against Leeds and should have beaten them TBH. At times some of our fans do not realise that we've got some seriously talented footballers in our squad. The fact that they play to a different style is testament to their discipline and understanding of the system that SD wants. You'll never see us start a game in that fashion, in fact the last one I can recall was the home game against Norwich last season when they couldn't get it out of their half. Obviously SD picks his style very carefully and we should be grateful that he does, because we'd get some serious pasting's if we tried it against some of the big boys. I don't think we'll see it against anyone soon unless we are a goal down with 20 mins or so to go against one of the lower outfits.
Good post.

[Edd_Claret]

I believe we have a lot of talented players and some games we can 100% release the shackles a little bit as seen in the Brighton game.

What frustrates me most is our attitude to the cups. Yes I know we don’t want injuries but injuries can happen in training does that mean we shouldn’t train?

Other people will say to me other teams rest players or make wholesale changes but to be honest I’m not bothered what other clubs do.

As a fan I just want to have something to look forward to. How amazing was the League Cup run in 2009?

[jojomk1]

With the current players at his disposal, if we played with more freedom etc we'd be down for sure. Just my opinion, so it's a no from me.

The current crop of players at his disposal have all been brought in by Dyche

And they have been brought in to play what is, in the main, a one dimensional long ball tactic that he hardly ever wavers from

He wants to play this way and recruits/picks a team to do so. Wood and Barnes would start all games if fit and scoring an odd goal

Vydra had to be given a chance when injuries came in but, to all intents and purposes, we still play 4-4-2. It's just that Vydra himself shows more down the lines or between channels of full backs and centre backs. The players see Vydra doing this and put the balls into those areas for him (this is not a tactical masterstroke from the manager)

The idea that he can play a type of open football is way wide of the mark

[Newcastleclaret93]

The season we finished 7th showed us what Dyche can do with the right players at his disposal.
More of that, or the one we finished 10th is fine.

If we have to go through the odd season where the football is a bit naff, but we stay up, then I'm fine with that.

Part of the problem I suspect on here with some is the short term memory loss.

I don’t think the 17-18 season has much relevance to the point the OP is making.

He is saying he wants more attacking style of play. That season we very much played better football but attacking wise we were not that great.

Statistically We were actually better as an attacking team last season.

I still think Dyche has a lot to prove in regards to improving the style of football and making the team more attacking. But as you said he can’t do that without better players at his disposal.

Also worth noting that after the 17-18 season Dyche was given considerable funds. Nearly all of the signings have failed apart from Vydra (would only class him as partial failure).

[Norfolk Claret]

The season we finished 7th showed us what Dyche can do with the right players at his disposal.
More of that, or the one we finished 10th is fine.

If we have to go through the odd season where the football is a bit naff, but we stay up, then I'm fine with that.

Part of the problem I suspect on here with some is the short term memory loss.

That season we finished 7th I saw us play away at Bournemouth, it was some of the best football I’ve seen us play, ever. Out of that team we are missing Defour, Hendrick, and Ward. You could say that we’ve replaced/upgraded Ward, however we miss that ball playing key passing aspect of Defours game. Hendrick, to some fans will not be missed. I thought he did ok for us, playing out of position etc. It seems like we’re just missing that link of class from midfield? Surely between the personnel we currently have it shouldn’t be too difficult to replicate that style of play? Whilst I appreciate teams around us are evolving and we have sort of stood still in the transfer market in regards to strengthening the starting 11 it’s got to be worth having a go at it, more often? Ie Villa at Home in the 2nd half.

[Stalbansclaret]

The current crop of players at his disposal have all been brought in by Dyche

And they have been brought in to play what is, in the main, a one dimensional long ball tactic that he hardly ever wavers from

He wants to play this way and recruits/picks a team to do so. Wood and Barnes would start all games if fit and scoring an odd goal

Vydra had to be given a chance when injuries came in but, to all intents and purposes, we still play 4-4-2. It's just that Vydra himself shows more down the lines or between channels of full backs and centre backs. The players see Vydra doing this and put the balls into those areas for him (this is not a tactical masterstroke from the manager)

The idea that he can play a type of open football is way wide of the mark

I think posts like this are so great....I mean you can't beat slating the manager who has given us 7 years of achievement we could literally only have dreamt of and which must have our peer-Group Lancashire town clubs dribbling with envy as they struggle away down the pyramid.
MD Wat's post higher up this thread states things well I think....if Dyche had any level of reasonable investment I have absolutely no doubt we would be playing with more flair on a regular basis. He is an intelligent and pragmatic football manager who gets the best out of the resources available to him.

[Elizabeth]

Of course we want to see more attractive , attacking football but it is a fluid situation and depends who is fit and who the opposition are . Three winnable games coming up , two of which are at home, with players returning from injury. I fully expect to see us play some good football regardless of Dyche’s overall football philosophy.

[Newcastleclaret93]

That season we finished 7th I saw us play away at Bournemouth, it was some of the best football I’ve seen us play, ever. Out of that team we are missing Defour, Hendrick, and Ward. You could say that we’ve replaced/upgraded Ward, however we miss that ball playing key passing aspect of Defours game. Hendrick, to some fans will not be missed. I thought he did ok for us, playing out of position etc. It seems like we’re just missing that link of class from midfield? Surely between the personnel we currently have it shouldn’t be too difficult to replicate that style of play? Whilst I appreciate teams around us are evolving and we have sort of stood still in the transfer market in regards to strengthening the starting 11 it’s got to be worth having a go at it, more often? Ie Villa at Home in the 2nd half.

To be fair our CM pairing of Cork (in his prime) and Defour was arguably one of the best outside the top 6.

Don’t think we will ever back to that kind of quality again without serious investment.

I think CM is arguably one of our worst positions in the team. Westwood and Cork are decent premier league footballers approaching the end of there career. Brownhill is decent enough but still has a lot to prove at premier league level. Then Stephens and Benson were just given the run around by a championship midfield.

In the summer a CM with some real quality is top of my priority list.

[KRBFC]

First thing I want to see is a complete change in recruitment, no more Stephens/Crouch/Walters etc type players and more young players. I think the main problem with that is Dyche prefers his older pros to younger players and the players we recruit have to fit the 442 defensive straight jacket energetic system.

It's fine us fans saying lets sign a pacey direct right winger, but when has Dyche ever had success with one? He's played Hendrick, Stephens, Defour and Brownhill on the wing at times. Boyd Arfield Gudmundsson Brady Treacy Wallace Kackliniclic some others without pace. He had Stanislas with pace and didn't get the best out of him, he recruited Lennon and Nkoudou, Lennon was gash and Nkoudou was bright but meh.

So while the fans want pace, Dyche doesn't prioritize it and prefers hardwork defensively at right midfield. I've never understood when people say with better players Dyche would play better football but I haven't seen any real change in his ways as years have gone on and Allardyce never played better football with better players. Dyche is what he is, his ways of playing don't shift, like most other managers. Like if we hired Graham Potter, he would implement his ways onto this Dyche group and we'd pass more, what success he'd find in that i'm not sure. You don't need multi million pound players to pass a football, many managers have shown that, you just recruit for that style and get the squad onside.

[JohnMac]

The season we finished 7th was great when several more fancied Clubs underperformed whilst we probably over performed. Getting to Europe led to unrealistic expectations though, some were saying or thinking we were back in the big time.

I would love to see more of the open free flowing devil may care football we are capable of playing in short spells. On the downside and to add realism, would hate to be beaten most weeks whilst pundits trot out the 'Too good to go down' line. Just look at Bournemouth for confirmation. So it's 'Carry on Clarets' for me!

Every season at this level is a bonus for the Club and our support, we just need to remember our place

[GodIsADeeJay81]

We didn't need serious investment to get Cork and Defour..

[dandeclaret]

Sport is cyclical.... some cycles are short, others are long, but most are predictable.

The cycle Burnley fans are currently on is the same on that Stoke, West Brom, Derby, Nottingham Forest all went on...... team did well, performed above expectations, that got taken for granted, fans and board wanted change, change brings risk of bad decisions, bad decisions bring the risk of poor financial management and relegation, until somebody comes in to a club, secures a promotion and repeat....

Very few cycles can progress past the point of over performance being taken for granted in my opinion - in any sport.

[Newcastleclaret93]

We didn't need serious investment to get Cork and Defour..

Serious investment for Burnley is anything over 15m net spend a window

[Conroy92]

The "tipping point" for me seems to revolve more around the investment and development of the playing squad at the club. Had we invested 30m of the 50m that had been stored we would be in a different predicament and the club would still be moving forwards. Better depth and better personal should see one of two things happen, either we can push up the table and once again finish in the top ten or we should be able to sustain cup runs while holding down a premier league place (neither is guaranteed). After 5/6 years of premier league football I hoped we would at least be able to achieve the latter and IMO it is only the club's refusal to spend that means we are not in this position. Most of the bad vibes for me are around the business (or lack of) over the past few years so a lot of blame for me at Garlicks door.

Still there's no time to cry over spilled milk and we have new owners now so let's see what they can do.
If we get through the summer window without much investment I'll be worried.

[Longsidebogs]

It’s nice to be a premier league club. But we simply cannot or will not move forward. We cannot make any decent signings, because good footballers do not want to come and play for Burnley. For the most part we have been run like a lower league club. We are often labelled a tin pot club, and it’s hard to disagree. And to be honest, our style of football is just soooooo boring! I miss match days, but I am not missing the football, more the social aspect before and after the match. I am paid on for season 21/22 so wii probably attend. However, I feel I am just one more disastrous transfer window away from calling it a day, certainly as far as paying for the privilege is concerned. I doubt that I am the only one who feels this way.

[Conroy92]

It’s nice to be a premier league club. But we simply cannot or will not move forward. We cannot make any decent signings, because good footballers do not want to come and play for Burnley. For the most part we have been run like a lower league club. We are often labelled a tin pot club, and it’s hard to disagree. And to be honest, our style of football is just soooooo boring! I miss match days, but I am not missing the football, more the social aspect before and after the match. I am paid on for season 21/22 so wii probably attend. However, I feel I am just one more disastrous transfer window away from calling it a day, certainly as far as paying for the privilege is concerned. I doubt that I am the only one who feels this way.

I disagree with the "we can't move forwards". We had a pot of 50m sat there which has effectively been used to buy ourselves. Had this been spent on the playing staff I think we could have had the odd cup run as well as hold onto our premier league status. That to me is moving forwards. Before we say "it's impossible for us to go anywhere" we need to be doing everything in our power to try and move forwards. I can't say we can't move forward, or couldn't, when we had 50m that could have been invested that has now evaporated out of the club.
Under previous ownership the club held itself back.

[RMutt]

I have spoken to quite a few people who are losing interest and getting fed up of the whole Premier League thing. The money, the cheating, VAR etc. You really do start asking ‘what is the point?’ You qualify for Europe but can’t have a good crack at it because you’re worried about Premier League survival. You get to the fifth round of the FA Cup but can’t have a decent go at that. But what’s the point of winning the Championship if you can’t afford to go up? Money has ruined football for clubs like Burnley. The fans though, are stuck in a quasi past/present. They love the cups because f the history and tradition but also love being in the Premier League and competing against the best. Perhaps the younger, newer generation are more comfortable with it. Perhaps they’re more comfortable with Burnley in the grand scheme of things. But for me and others it’s hard not to become despondent with way the it’s all gone.

[ClaretTony]

Would YOU prefer the status quo or would you prefer a riskier but more entertaining football strategy going forward.

I think I'd prefer to see the day when we have a fully fit squad again - we are doing remarkably well given the injuries we have had to contend with this season and are still having to contend with.

[Antmass]

First thing I want to see is a complete change in recruitment, no more Stephens/Crouch/Walters etc type players and more young players. I think the main problem with that is Dyche prefers his older pros to younger players and the players we recruit have to fit the 442 defensive straight jacket energetic system.

It's fine us fans saying lets sign a pacey direct right winger, but when has Dyche ever had success with one? He's played Hendrick, Stephens, Defour and Brownhill on the wing at times. Boyd Arfield Gudmundsson Brady Treacy Wallace Kackliniclic some others without pace. He had Stanislas with pace and didn't get the best out of him, he recruited Lennon and Nkoudou, Lennon was gash and Nkoudou was bright but meh.

So while the fans want pace, Dyche doesn't prioritize it and prefers hardwork defensively at right midfield. I've never understood when people say with better players Dyche would play better football but I haven't seen any real change in his ways as years have gone on and Allardyce never played better football with better players. Dyche is what he is, his ways of playing don't shift, like most other managers. Like if we hired Graham Potter, he would implement his ways onto this Dyche group and we'd pass more, what success he'd find in that i'm not sure. You don't need multi million pound players to pass a football, many managers have shown that, you just recruit for that style and get the squad onside.

Spot on!

[winsomeyen]

I disagree with the "we can't move forwards". We had a pot of 50m sat there which has effectively been used to buy ourselves. Had this been spent on the playing staff I think we could have had the odd cup run as well as hold onto our premier league status. That to me is moving forwards. Before we say "it's impossible for us to go anywhere" we need to be doing everything in our power to try and move forwards. I can't say we can't move forward, or couldn't, when we had 50m that could have been invested that has now evaporated out of the club.
Under previous ownership the club held itself back.

The 50 million you quote was obviously never intended for squad strengthening,it was used to make the club a more attractive proposition for a prospective buyer.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

A complete change to the system that's worked so far... Yeah great idea.

I'd prefer a shift in focus but still allowing for the recruitment of seasoned pros because they give the younger lads someone to look up to, learn from etc.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The 50 million you quote was obviously never intended for squad strengthening,it was used to make the club a more attractive proposition for a prospective buyer.

Are we forgetting the drop in revenue due to Covid and the rebate of TV monies, also due to Covid?

[winsomeyen]

Are we forgetting the drop in revenue due to Covid and the rebate of TV monies, also due to Covid?

Would you care to give your opinion of where the quoted 50 million has gone.?

[ClaretTony]

We had a pot of 50m sat there which has effectively been used to buy ourselves.

I believe the money the club had in the bank remains in the bank. Loans have been taken out but the pot hasn't.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Would you care to give your opinion of where the quoted 50 million has gone.?

I would wait until the accounts are released before guessing that it has gone

[Bordeauxclaret]

I keep hearing this about our TV revenue being reduced.
Does anyone know by how much it’s declined?

[bfcmik]

We had a pot of 50m sat there which has effectively been used to buy ourselves.

I would suggest the 'pot of £50m' has been used to pay the club's bills and wages through this last year of shutdown, lockdowns, TV money repayments and no fans at games to generate merchandise income.

[tiger76]

I keep hearing this about our TV revenue being reduced.
Does anyone know by how much it’s declined?

I've no doubt CP and others will have more detailed figures available, but this article should give you a snapshot hopefully.

https://www.90min.com/posts/how-premier ... ronavirus

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Would you care to give your opinion of where the quoted 50 million has gone.?

The accounts should be out in the not so distant future and Kieron Maguire or Swiss ramble will analyse them for us.

I know some people are well up for bashing the club over this, but some of us prefer facts.

[beddie]

Stick to what we know and hope and that keeps us up, SD can then say I've done my bit Alan now show me the money (budget) and hopefully bring in several new faces.

[tiger76]

Stick to what we know and hope and that keeps us up, SD can then say I've done my bit Alan now show me the money (budget) and hopefully bring in several new faces.

We should have enough nous to stay up this season given our 8 point buffer, and then the onus shifts to Alan Pace & co to show how serious they are at improving us in the summer, that will be the acid test of their commitment, I assume some will go (Gibson, Tarks) and possibly a few fringe players, so we should be able to hope for at least 3/4 new signings, and these need to be guys that can come straight into the 1st team, or at least make an impact from the bench, there's no point signing any more squad fillers, we already have plenty of them, what we desperately require is a midfield playmaker, and a right winger who can take a man on and deliver some decent service to the strikers, and obviously we'll also need 2 new centre backs, so 4 is the bare minimum we have to recruit in the summer, and that depends on whether any other 1st teamers are sold, if those recruits aren't forthcoming, then I can only see relegation next season, we've been fortunate this year due to the bottom 3 being so hopeless, but we can't keep chancing our luck, as sooner or later it'll run out.

[nonayclaret]

I think that one of the main problems is our poor start to this season. Because of that we are too low on points some way into the season; and we all know what points make...

To survive we have to get, say, 35 pts and it is now getting a little more serious that we NEED to get them to stay up. I have no doubt we will, but SD is obviously playing a, perhaps more boring, strategy of style to try to ensure we have another season in the top flight.

If we had had a great start and got 35 points before Christmas, he may have allowed more open play and let some of the younger players have more time. At the moment it is "needs must" and we have to put up with it until we are out of the danger zone.

Despite the so called boring style, I am still pleased to see us actually create so many chances in games. Finishing them is a separate issue.

Stick in there and let SD take the strain, but keep the faith and enjoy what we have.

UTC

[Bordeauxclaret]

I've no doubt CP and others will have more detailed figures available, but this article should give you a snapshot hopefully.

https://www.90min.com/posts/how-premier ... ronavirus

Thanks for that, I’m not seeing any details on how much less clubs are receiving from the tv companies though.
Has this been confirmed anywhere?

[ksrclaret]

No tipping point, but I am fed up with how we set up. I don't expect us to play silky attacking football, I don't expect us to all bomb forward at will and leave the 2 central defenders exposed, but I do expect us to be able to keep the ball. This rigid 442, hit and hope stuff just doesn't interest me.

A change to a 451 formation, or 4411, like we employed during the season of 17/18, with a greater emphasis on keeping the ball would do me just fine. I suppose the argument is then that we don't have a Defour or even a Hendrick anymore to fill those roles. True, which is why the fact the football club just cannot recruit a player is so frustrating.

I don't like watching this crude and gauche style of football. Not one single bit.

[SouthamptonClaret]

I'd sooner we kept it tight as we have done in the past to stay in the premier league. I don't think we'd get out of the Championship at the first attempt, if at all, and with Dyche at the helm it'd be the same style of football in that division too (think we won it with an average of 30 odd percent possession last time? Happy to be corrected on that).

I know it's not all about money to fans, but in the prem we get to grind out a result against one of the big guns and it feels great. Liverpool and Arsenal away this season were brilliant. It's the same game every week, 8 behind the ball, go long and look for free kicks to load the box. When we lose it's boring and 'Dyche out', when we win it's an amazing performance from us. Pundits are full of garbage, but every single one of them says that what we're achieving year in year out is incredible and I think some of our fans need to start believing that

[Colburn_Claret]

If we went gung ho like Leeds we'd certainly be relegated.
At present we are only getting it right at one end of the pitch.
We can't neglect that defensive framework, but that doesn't mean we can't improve massively, going forward.
I don't see it as a choice of one or the other, just getting what we do better.

[bodge]

It's more a complacency point rather than a tipping point.

It's less than 7 days from the excellent performance in the second half against Brighton, playing some really good stuff and although this isn't the norm it shows we are capable of showing some attacking flair.

Our fans are reminding me of Stoke's and that is dangerous.

These are really good times.

[AlargeClaret]

Bearing in mind Brighton were very poor ( tidy goal though ) but we should be able to take it to the other poor teams around us . That said if we tried to play fancy football with the players we have ,we’d be eaten alive .

[Right_winger]

No tipping point just more people waking up and seeing through Dyche.

We play the worst football in the premier league by a country mile. Our recruitment has been pathetic and the man at the wheel is to blame, there has been no strategy at all it’s all old pros to plug a gap, constantly.

[jrgbfc]

This summer is a massive one. I must admit i thought after nearly 5 seasons at this level we'd have gradually improved our style a bit and had more of a go in the cups. But if anything we're going backwards and our team hasn't really been improved for 2 or 3 years now.

[Billyblah]

The 'tipping point ' hopefully comes at the end of this season and sees us scrape out of relegation and a new season in the Premiership with a new owner who is willing to bring in 2-3 good quality young players each season who can 'grow ' with the club and appreciate in value to then be sold to bigger clubs for a healthy profit.
I was anticipating such a scenario under Garlick. Instead £40m plus was stacked up while our player assets aged, slowed down, became more injury prone and in the case of Hendrick, simply walked away. I'm struggling with the 'legacy' that he has left behind.
I would hope that the new ownership will take on the challenge of judicious signings of quality young, fast, durable players who can 'grow ' within the club.
That said, if they've already 'plundered' the £40m cash maybe we will still be resorting to bringing in ageing pros such as Dale Stephens and Danny Drinkwater. If that is the case, there is no hope of Sean Dyche renewing his contract at the end of next season.