Hillsborough Trial Collapses

[ElectroClaret]

(BBC)
The trial of two ex police officers and an ex solicitor on charges relating to the 1989 disaster has collapsed, more details to follow.

Judge rules there is no case to answer.

[Squidgy]

It’s collapsed because the evidence used against those involved was evidence prepared for the public enquiry NOT the original incident.
Quite how this wasn’t spotted pre trail is beyond me.
The public enquiry was not a trial. It was an enquiry.

[evensteadiereddie]

They were never going to be called to account anyway.

[arise_sir_charge]

It’s collapsed because the evidence used against those involved was evidence prepared for the public enquiry NOT the original incident.
Quite how this wasn’t spotted pre trail is beyond me.
The public enquiry was not a trial. It was an enquiry.

Not sure that’s right, I think it collapsed because the statements supposedly altered where for the Taylor report which wasn’t something for a court of law and therefore no charge of perverting the course of justice could stand.

[Herts Clarets]

Not sure that’s right, I think it collapsed because the statements supposedly altered where for the Taylor report which wasn’t something for a court of law and therefore no charge of perverting the course of justice could stand.

That is how i read it and whilst not experienced in law or court proceedings, surely any legal person worth their salt could have identified that the charge could not possibly stand. The statements were for an enquiry, which is not a court of law so perverting the course of justice would be impossible to uphold.

[ClaretTony]

That is how i read it and whilst not experienced in law or court proceedings, surely any legal person worth their salt could have identified that the charge could not possibly stand. The statements were for an enquiry, which is not a court of law so perverting the course of justice would be impossible to uphold.

You have to question why the CPS ever thought this could stand.

[ElectroClaret]

There doesn't seem anywhere to go for them now, legally-wise.
Whatever the reasons this didn't get anywhere, it surely can't be right that 96 people were found to have been been "unlawfully killed" and no-one will now (it seems) be held accountable.

[ClaretTony]

There doesn't seem anywhere to go for them now, legally-wise.
Whatever the reasons this didn't get anywhere, it surely can't be right that 96 people were found to have been been "unlawfully killed" and no-one will now (it seems) be held accountable.

It’s not right, it’s bloody wrong.

I’ve just listened to the first part of this video when Margaret Aspinall speaks. It’s hard not to agree with what she’s saying today.

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/announ ... conference#

[THEWELLERNUT70]

There doesn't seem anywhere to go for them now, legally-wise.
Whatever the reasons this didn't get anywhere, it surely can't be right that 96 people were found to have been been "unlawfully killed" and no-one will now (it seems) be held accountable.

I completely agree, it's bizarre to say the least

[THEWELLERNUT70]

I didn't know this was happening this week, but in a twist of fate I today watched the Liverpool program on IPlayer (an excellent watch imo) and followed it up with the BBC program with Phil Scraton (again) and it still is unbelievable the complete abdication of any kind of duty, responsibilityor purpose from the powers in charge on that day

https://youtu.be/Nfb5iy9U7KI

[Bordeauxclaret]

Police forces agree to pay damages.

Strange thing to do when it was apparently all the fault of Liverpool fans?

[dougcollins]

And some of the culprits never get a mention.

If they behave like animals we'll treat them like animals, said Thatcher after asking her pet Home Secretary Whitelaw to erect the lethal fences.

[ClaretTony]

And some of the culprits never get a mention.

If they behave like animals we'll treat them like animals, said Thatcher after asking her pet Home Secretary Whitelaw to erect the lethal fences.

And I’ve always believed she was all over this cover up.

[dougcollins]

And I’ve always believed she was all over this cover up.

Can't argue with that.

[Top Claret]

MOD: Libellous comments removed - poster warned

[Zlatan]

And I’ve always believed she was all over this cover up.

Without any doubt CT, I believe that too

[Top Claret]

MOD: Libellous comments removed - poster warned

So it's libellous to have a different opinion to yours?

[bf2k]

It’s obvious the policing in the day was very poorly coordinated. Police treat football fans like animals. However, after the way football fans behaved in the late 70s and 80s it wasn’t a surprise, although not right. What I can’t understand is why the total blame is put on the police. Fans travelled without tickets, told not to but still did. Liverpool and Sheffield Wednesday knew this was a risk yet did nothing to mitigate it. The FA picked a stadium that was well documented in being run down and dangerous. The families of the 96 who died deserve proper answers not just a witch hunt off the police. They were failing all over they place from many organisations.

[Jakubclaret]

There doesn't seem anywhere to go for them now, legally-wise.
Whatever the reasons this didn't get anywhere, it surely can't be right that 96 people were found to have been been "unlawfully killed" and no-one will now (it seems) be held accountable.

It's not right it's far from right & the families will want justice & accountability but if that's never going to happen & it's appearing clearly that's the case you can't or anybody can't deny the crumbs of consolation to be some sense of closure & the sooner that happens is the best outcome for all concerned.

[ClaretTony]

Fans travelled without tickets, told not to but still did. Liverpool and Sheffield Wednesday knew this was a risk yet did nothing to mitigate it.

Absolutely no evidence of that. What a sad state of affairs that after the inquiry and inquest people still spout this nonsense.

[ClaretTony]

So it's libellous to have a different opinion to yours?

No it’s not libellous to have a different opinion to mine but what you posted was libellous and nothing to do with my opinion.

[NottsClaret]

Sad that so many people still soak up the lies put out by SYP to cover up what they did.

If you want to know who was drinking before the game, maybe have a look at where David Duckenfield was from 11-2pm that day. Although he maintained he ‘couldn’t remember’.

Pretty disgusting when working class football fans - especially those who remember those times - take the side of lying scumbags in the ‘establishment’ to score points in pathetic football rivalries.

[tim_noone]

Absolutely no evidence of that. What a sad state of affairs that after the inquiry and inquest people still spout this nonsense.

It's not unknown for fans to travel without tickets ...but on this occasion none did?

[bf2k]

Absolutely no evidence of that. What a sad state of affairs that after the inquiry and inquest people still spout this nonsense.

Believe what you want. More fans ended up in the stand than should have been. Either the game was over subscribed or fans traveled without tickets.

Like I said there are many failings about that day not just how the police handled the situation.

[bf2k]

Sad that so many people still soak up the lies put out by SYP to cover up what they did.

If you want to know who was drinking before the game, maybe have a look at where David Duckenfield was from 11-2pm that day. Although he maintained he ‘couldn’t remember’.

Pretty disgusting when working class football fans - especially those who remember those times - take the side of lying scumbags in the ‘establishment’ to score points in pathetic football rivalries.

Sounds like someone has an agenda.

Yes the police got it very very wrong but they were not the only ones.

Have you evidence off your allegation you make of the match Day commander? If not that is libellous

[ClaretTony]

Believe what you want. More fans ended up in the stand than should have been. Either the game was over subscribed or fans traveled without tickets.

Like I said there are many failings about that day not just house the police handled the situation.

Not what I believe. It’s the clear result of the inquiry & inquests. What I won’t believe is what you continue to shamefully have to say about it. Please don’t repeat it on this message board.

[Devils_Advocate]

Believe what you want. More fans ended up in the stand than should have been. Either the game was over subscribed or fans traveled without tickets.

Like I said there are many failings about that day not just how the police handled the situation.

More fans ended up in the middle two pens than should have been. The main failing was they didnt have police manning the entrance to the two centre pens which when coming into the ground looks like the only way in to the terrace

Previous cup semi finals the police shut the entrance when the centre pens were full and directed the fans to the side pens.

Im sorry but if after all the reports and documentaries on the disaster you dont understand basic stuff like this then youre probably best keeping your trap shut on the subject rather than sounding like a pillock

[Grumps]

I personally know fans who travelled to Sheffield that day without tickets
That's not libelous, or factually wrong, but let's see how long this post remains

[Bigbopper]

We all know fans travel to big games without tickets it has always happened.
Some go in the hope of buying a spare , some go just to be part of the prematch atmosphere and some go to try and blag their way in.
Just because hundreds of fans have not put their hands up and said "yes guv I went with no ticket" does not mean to say it did not happen. If your opinion is no one went without a ticket then fair enough but I think it is a rather naive opinion.

[Bordeauxclaret]

I’ve no doubt there were some people without tickets.

That’s not what caused 96 fellow football fans to lose their lives.

[Burnley Ace]

Absolutely no evidence of that. What a sad state of affairs that after the inquiry and inquest people still spout this nonsense.

Given all your experience of attending football matches do you honestly believe that no Liverpool fans turned up to an FA Cup semi final without tickets, hoping to either buy off a tout, get a spare or try to sneak in?

[taio]

Given all your experience of attending football matches do you honestly believe that no Liverpool fans turned up to an FA Cup semi final without tickets, hoping to either buy off a tout, get a spare or try to sneak in?

Is anyone actually denying that there were some fans there with no tickets? I think it’s more a case of thinking that played little or no part it what happened as per the inquiry.

[Grumps]

We all know fans travel to big games without tickets it has always happened.
Some go in the hope of buying a spare , some go just to be part of the prematch atmosphere and some go to try and blag their way in.
Just because hundreds of fans have not put their hands up and said "yes guv I went with no ticket" does not mean to say it did not happen. If your opinion is no one went without a ticket then fair enough but I think it is a rather naive opinion.

Of the four I know who went, three would probably had a severe risk put on their future career prospects, in the jobs they were in at the time, had they come forward and admitted going with no tickets. For the record, they were nowhere near the Liverpool end at the time of the tragedy.

At the time, most matches were pay on the gate,so it became habit to travel to games with just a hope of getting in.

[Grumps]

Is anyone actually denying that there were some fans there with no tickets? I think it’s more a case of thinking that played little or no part it what happened as per the inquiry.

Yes... The editor of this site at 10.44pm last night.

[taio]

Yes... The editor of this site at 10.44pm last night.

Fair enough. I think - could be wrong - that the inquiry itself found that some fans were there without tickets.

[DCWat]

Of the four I know who went, three would probably had a severe risk put on their future career prospects, in the jobs they were in at the time, had they come forward and admitted going with no tickets. For the record, they were nowhere near the Liverpool end at the time of the tragedy.

At the time, most matches were pay on the gate,so it became habit to travel to games with just a hope of getting in.

What field did they work in for their future career prospects to be at risk, for going to a football ground where a game was being held, without a ticket?

[Grumps]

What field did they work in for their future career prospects to be at risk, for going to a football ground where a game was being held, without a ticket?

2 police officers and a customs officer from Liverpool docks.

[Corky]

We seem to be missing the point here. It doesn't matter if fans travelled to the match without tickets. It doesn't matter if some had too much to drink. It doesn't matter if fans stayed in the pub too long then rushed to the ground late. What does matter is that the Police should plan for these eventualities and have contingencies in place to deal with them. It is there job to maintain health and safety sometimes in difficult situations. They didn't and then lied about it to cover their shortcomings and lack of preparedness.

[Jakubclaret]

We seem to be missing the point here. It doesn't matter if fans travelled to the match without tickets. It doesn't matter if some had too much to drink. It doesn't matter if fans stayed in the pub too long then rushed to the ground late. What does matter is that the Police should plan for these eventualities and have contingencies in place to deal with them. It is there job to maintain health and safety sometimes in difficult situations. They didn't and then lied about it to cover their shortcomings and lack of preparedness.

Agree 100% in a perfect world, but it's not simple planning & having these contingencies in place when you are ill equipped & severely undermanned because of circumstances beyond reasonable control, sure the police made mistakes & plenty of them & shouldn't have told pork pies after, I think a combination of factors led to that tragedy & I actually think it's counter productive to hang people out to dry when people might not be 100% responsible, sometimes it's more respectful to just try to learn from the past & remember the 96 respectfully & move on & try to ensure past mistakes aren't repeated.

[Grumps]

We seem to be missing the point here. It doesn't matter if fans travelled to the match without tickets. It doesn't matter if some had too much to drink. It doesn't matter if fans stayed in the pub too long then rushed to the ground late. What does matter is that the Police should plan for these eventualities and have contingencies in place to deal with them. It is there job to maintain health and safety sometimes in difficult situations. They didn't and then lied about it to cover their shortcomings and lack of preparedness.

I wouldn't disagree with you, it's just that this part of the conversation is around certain people saying nobody went without tickets, and others explaining why fans did travel without tickets.

I've never seen the op orders for that game, but can say for certain that local clubs who have played Liverpool in the Premier league certainly have those scenarios you've mentioned covered in their pre match arrangements, with addition of 'rushing' the turnstiles.

[RedRoseWardrobe]

I was present on the day in in pen3. The inquests concluded that the terrace overall was below capacity. Allegations by people (who allege they are football fans) on here are verifiable untrue. They should retract their false statements. Your frankly disgusting self opionated & self important smears & defence of SYP are incredible & sick. Morons like you contribute to the ongoing suffering of families&survivors. I'd appeal to your intelligence but there's no point.

[2 Bee Holed]

The inquests concluded that the terrace overall was below capacity.

That was my understanding too. Indeed even non football fans should be able to look at the terraces near each corner flag and see that is the case.
Tickets or no tickets, if you open a large exit gate and let fans flood in then you are asking for trouble. If you don't shut the tunnel doors enabling these rushing fans into pens that are already at capacity you are asking for even more trouble. Tickets should have been checked before entering the funnel Area on leppings lane near the turnstiles.
I remember after Hillsborough the police formed a line near the butty bar well before you reached the club shop.
All easily implemented plans that should have been in place.
Yes, in my opinion the police have a duty of care, which was not carried out that awful day.
I also think we have a problem after matches with a similar pinch point. At the back of the bee hole about 30 yards before the club shop. That gate needs widening. Plus anyone trying to drive a car off the car park within 20 mins of the final whistle should be shot.

[ClaretTony]

Plus anyone trying to drive a car off the car park within 20 mins of the final whistle should be shot.

And incredibly it happened again at the recent Liverpool game. Even with the smaller crowd it caused problems in Ormerod Yard.

These problems have been reported time and again to the club. They acknowledge it but clearly have put nothing in place to put a stop to it.

[Corky]

Agree 100% in a perfect world, but it's not simple planning & having these contingencies in place when you are ill equipped & severely undermanned because of circumstances beyond reasonable control, sure the police made mistakes & plenty of them & shouldn't have told pork pies after, I think a combination of factors led to that tragedy & I actually think it's counter productive to hang people out to dry when people might not be 100% responsible, sometimes it's more respectful to just try to learn from the past & remember the 96 respectfully & move on & try to ensure past mistakes aren't repeated.

I agree with you. But it was the closing ranks of the establishment with a blanket character assassination (poor choice of words but..) of football fans generally and Liverpool fans in particular that was so disrespectful. And even recently with the acquittal of the 2 coppers and a solicitor(?) the comments made by their QC showed the contempt still held by some quarters for the 96.

[Jakubclaret]

I agree with you. But it was the closing ranks of the establishment with a blanket character assassination (poor choice of words but..) of football fans generally and Liverpool fans in particular that was so disrespectful. And even recently with the acquittal of the 2 coppers and a solicitor(?) the comments made by their QC showed the contempt still held by some quarters for the 96.

It's best just forgotten about now & I don't mean that callously, we've had all the investigations & inquiries under the sun & nothing will ever change, when things can't or won't change you need to change your outlook & just accept things for what there are, I don't mean to that be disrespectful to the dead the 96 will always be remembered & that tragic day, I can't speak for all the dead relatives & I won't even try to, but it's logical to assume it's dragged on for that long & keeps getting churned up, some will just want some sense of closure & to move on especially when there's no end in sight, you've got 2 camps effectively speaking blaming each other for what happened & just passing the buck & that will never end.

[ClaretTony]

It's best just forgotten about now & I don't mean that callously, we've had all the investigations & inquiries under the sun & nothing will ever change, when things can't or won't change you need to change your outlook & just accept things for what there are, I don't mean to that be disrespectful to the dead the 96 will always be remembered & that tragic day, I can't speak for all the dead relatives & I won't even try to, but it's logical to assume it's dragged on for that long & keeps getting churned up, some will just want some sense of closure & to move on especially when there's no end in sight, you've got 2 camps effectively speaking blaming each other for what happened & just passing the buck & that will never end.

I watched a clearly angry and emotional Margaret Aspinall last week. This lady has been thrust into the limelight because her son was killed at Hillsborough.

Two things she said have stuck with me. She said that some of her fellow sufferers who have tried to get justice have had to take it to their graves. She then said that it had been proven that the Liverpool fans had nothing wrong. She said: “The only thing they did wrong was go to that bloody ground.”

I feel so much for them but you wonder what they can ever do now. They have suffered enough for over 32 years.

[Spijed]

I agree with you. But it was the closing ranks of the establishment with a blanket character assassination (poor choice of words but..) of football fans generally and Liverpool fans in particular that was so disrespectful. And even recently with the acquittal of the 2 coppers and a solicitor(?) the comments made by their QC showed the contempt still held by some quarters for the 96.

I think it's far worse than being disrespectful. Those that were involved in the cover up can simply be described as evil people. Something they are quite happy to live with.

[Jakubclaret]

I watched a clearly angry and emotional Margaret Aspinall last week. This lady has been thrust into the limelight because her son was killed at Hillsborough.

Two things she said have stuck with me. She said that some of her fellow sufferers who have tried to get justice have had to take it to their graves. She then said that it had been proven that the Liverpool fans had nothing wrong. She said: “The only thing they did wrong was go to that bloody ground.”

I feel so much for them but you wonder what they can ever do now. They have suffered enough for over 32 years.

True, it's just a sh*t do what's gone with it all, a senseless tragedy compounded with so many mistakes that went on that day & in hindsight sadly what could have easily been prevented. I don't believe anything good will come out of it even if people are found to be partly responsible it'll just go around in circles with people blaming each other again.

[bf2k]

Not what I believe. It’s the clear result of the inquiry & inquests. What I won’t believe is what you continue to shamefully have to say about it. Please don’t repeat it on this message board.

Tell you what Tony disable my account if I can’t have a differing opinion than you.

[ClaretTony]

Tell you what Tony disable my account if I can’t have a differing opinion than you.

Not my opinion as I’ve already said. It’s what has come from legal hearings.