Russia Invades

[AlargeClaret]

This thread is useless until Jakobclaret starts posting live updates

[Damo]

With all these threats of nuclear attacks, I'm just glad we never elected anyone who wanted to scrap the trident nuclear program

[GodIsADeeJay81]

https://twitter.com/IAMannalynnemcc/sta ... sGIAg&s=19

There's always one vaguely famous American willing to show themselves up during an international crisis....

[Devils_Advocate]

I dont think any recent mainstream political has stated any plans to scrap Triden. It is however definitely a shame we elected a govt that has ignored Russian interference in our elections and has accepted vast amounts of Rubbles from Tory Oligarchs whilst at the same time pushing Brexit (funded and supported by Russia) which has weakened Europe which is exactly what Putin wanted

[IanMcL]

Neither the club nor players invaded anyone, nor their fans who travelled to watch them.

Kicking them out for what the Russian government did would be seen as petty because it'd be petty.

Not if you are sanctioning a country and its activities on the world stage.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I dont think any recent mainstream political has stated any plans to scrap Triden. It is however definitely a shame we elected a govt that has ignored Russian interference in our elections and has accepted vast amounts of Rubbles from Tory Oligarchs whilst at the same time pushing Brexit (funded and supported by Russia) which has weakened Europe which is exactly what Putin wanted

It hasn't weakened Europe, especially as it appears to be Britain doing more to support Ukraine than anyone else in Europe.

What's weakened the EU/Europe is their over reliance on Russian energy suppliers.

[PeterWilton]

Not if you are sanctioning a country and its activities on the world stage.

Nah. it's be petty af.

And it's not UEFA's job to issue sanctions based on a country's governments unrelated actions.

If a government issue sanctions then UEFA should comply with those sanctions if they involve a club or it's owners. But they shouldn't be going around sanctioning clubs themselves based on political decisions of the government that the club happens to be from.

[PeterWilton]

It hasn't weakened Europe, especially as it appears to be Britain doing more to support Ukraine than anyone else in Europe.

What's weakened the EU/Europe is their over reliance on Russian energy suppliers.

and ours. We were in the Union and accepted that over-reliance.

I wish we were in it now because our sanctions on Russia would be much stronger than what I expect this Russian-funded Prime Minister to come out with.

[Damo]

I dont think any recent mainstream political has stated any plans to scrap Triden. It is however definitely a shame we elected a govt that has ignored Russian interference in our elections and has accepted vast amounts of Rubbles from Tory Oligarchs whilst at the same time pushing Brexit (funded and supported by Russia) which has weakened Europe which is exactly what Putin wanted

I didn't say anyone had any credible plans.
Most sensible voters would have baulked at that idea.

The rest of your post just seemed like an angry retort, and nothing like the sort of thing we have come to expect of you. Hope you are ok pal

[Devils_Advocate]

It hasn't weakened Europe, especially as it appears to be Britain doing more to support Ukraine than anyone else in Europe.

What's weakened the EU/Europe is their over reliance on Russian energy suppliers.

European country's in conflict with each other and the divisiveness it has created across its people completely weakens Europe. In times of crisis you need real strength in unity and in that area we are far weaker than we were pre-2016.

Why do you think Putin supported Brexit and the Trump presidency so much if it wasn't to weaken the West and enable his plans to expand Russia into the old Soviet Union blocks?

[Damo]

and ours. We were in the Union and accepted that over-reliance.

I wish we were in it now because our sanctions on Russia would be much stronger than what I expect this Russian-funded Prime Minister to come out with.

5% of our gas comes from Russia
40% of Germanys gas comes from Russia
Try and spin that however you like, but to me it just seems like we got out at the right time

[Devils_Advocate]

I didn't say anyone had any credible plans.
Most sensible voters would have baulked at that idea.

The rest of your post just seemed like an angry retort, and nothing like the sort of thing we have come to expect of you. Hope you are ok pal

Its not angry retort at all its just the situation we are in. Focusing on something that was never going to happen rather than focusing on what actions this country has taken that has helped lead into this situation seems a little counter productive but if thats where you are at fair enough

[RicardoMontalban]

Looking up more on Putin’s comments of ‘De-Nazification’ of Ukraine, which seemed perplexing to me as the President is Jewish and actually had 3 of his family die in the holocaust…

But on the further inspection it seems like in 2014 in the Donbass regions Ukraine had Neo-Nazi militia groups fighting alongside them and had no issue arming them.

Can anyone shed any more light on these accusations/severity of them?

Obviously I know Putin is using that sentiment/angle and vastly amplifying it - ie there’s not like widespread Nazis in Ukraine or anything

Cheers

Some of this is the difference between our western attitude towards nazism and Eastern European views. Think Fascist and Nazi here and you think holocaust and what was a fairly conventional European war of expansion. That’s different in the east where there was a war of annihilation fought on lines of ideology. This gets even more complex in parts of the USSR like Ukraine and the Baltic where there are strong national identities distinct from Russia.

Using terms like denazification play to the Russian psyche of the invader from the west and the war of the eastern front.

Sure, there are vile right wing nationalists in Ukraine that westerners would identify as nazi or fascist. Just as there are in Russia and Western Europe. But that’s not what Putin is saying here and we’re not necessarily his audience. Most western politicians and academics see that for what it is. Except John Pilger apparently.

[Damo]

Its not angry retort at all its just the situation we are in. Focusing on something that was never going to happen rather than focusing on what actions this country has taken that has helped lead into this situation seems a little counter productive but if thats where you are at fair enough

I hope you are back to your normal self soon matey. I quite enjoy your banter

[Hipper]

Looking up more on Putin’s comments of ‘De-Nazification’ of Ukraine, which seemed perplexing to me as the President is Jewish and actually had 3 of his family die in the holocaust…

But on the further inspection it seems like in 2014 in the Donbass regions Ukraine had Neo-Nazi militia groups fighting alongside them and had no issue arming them.

Can anyone shed any more light on these accusations/severity of them?

Obviously I know Putin is using that sentiment/angle and vastly amplifying it - ie there’s not like widespread Nazis in Ukraine or anything

Cheers

We must remember that WW2 really became inevitable when the Russians and Germans (Soviets and Nazis) signed an agreement to divide up Poland, but also other areas including Ukraine. Then later of course the Germans invaded Russia. Some sections of Ukrainians had not taken kindly to the Russians - they had suffered badly between the wars - and so these groups greeted the Nazis as liberators. They formed anti Soviet units including a Waffen SS division.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collabora ... ed_Ukraine

[Devils_Advocate]

I hope you are back to your normal self soon matey. I quite enjoy your banter

You've completely lost me but think you might be reading my comments wrong. One thing I would say is you are probably on you own on wanting me to be my "normal self" on here but rest assured no change in me and majority of my posts are still me just messing about.

I think this exchange today is only second comment I've made on this topic as I cant be arsed getting to involved but Im on a conference call which is of no interest to me so thought I would pass some time catching up on the political ramblings of UTCs and make the odd comment

[Roger1960]

5% of our gas comes from Russia
40% of Germanys gas comes from Russia
Try and spin that however you like, but to me it just seems like we got out at the right time

our gas supply has zero to do with being in or out of the EU it is purely a function of us having north sea gas and most other EU countries not having it.
you cannot judge so soon who has got things right re sanctions us or the EU or maybe no one . however it is indisputable that successive governments have allowed russian billionaires / crooks / mafia , take your pick, to launder their money through londons financial institutions and hide billions of pounds of property assets by buying them through anonymous off shore companies and the government is still even during a war not saying when they will close this hide out for their money. it would be relatively simple to ban all property purchases and sales immediately by companies until they declared who the actual beneficiaries of it were and if they have links to russia make it a further condition that before any deal is allowed to progress they have to prove how they came legally by their money . our government is too beholding though to donations from people who have no interest in such legislation so it wont happen

[Lancasterclaret]

5% of our gas comes from Russia
40% of Germanys gas comes from Russia
Try and spin that however you like, but to me it just seems like we got out at the right time

There were legitimate reasons for leaving the EU, but the people who pushed them into the mainstream and magnified those reasons to include blatant falsehoods were funded 100% by Russia

You don't have to admit you were wrong or anything like that, all you have to do is understand that the referendum result directly benefitted Russia and sent out the signal that the West was disunited (which we've continued to amplify since the result)

Putin has seen all this, and drawn the wrong conclusions, but he wouldn't have been able to draw those conclusions if there had been a different result

(and for balance, he's believed all the propaganda that his agents have been spreading in the US about Biden being too old to rule properly, and that has been proved to be decisively wrong as well)

He's gambled his country on believing false information that he spread, which shows just how bonkers all this is

[PeterWilton]

5% of our gas comes from Russia
40% of Germanys gas comes from Russia
Try and spin that however you like, but to me it just seems like we got out at the right time

2 quick questions.

1. Where do you think we import 30% of our energy from?
2. And where do you think they get the energy that we're importing?

[Hipper]

5% of our gas comes from Russia
40% of Germanys gas comes from Russia
Try and spin that however you like, but to me it just seems like we got out at the right time

I don't think our being in the EU has much to do with sources of gas. Or maybe they have the reverse effects that you imply.

Indeed the figures for 2015 don't mention gas imports from Russia at all, so it seems we can say that 'since we've left the EU, UK gas imports from Russia increased'!!!

Most of the gas we import comes through pipelines laid underneath the sea bed. We have established pipelines with Norway and the Netherlands which accounted for 61% and 7% of our 2015 gas imports respectively. We also have established pipelines with Belgium but gas imports from Belgium only accounted for 0.4% of our 2015 gas imports.

The remaining gas imports came to the UK as Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) with LNG from Qatar making up 29% of the UK’s gas imports in 2015.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environm ... 2016-08-15

[Damo]

There were legitimate reasons for leaving the EU, but the people who pushed them into the mainstream and magnified those reasons to include blatant falsehoods were funded 100% by Russia

You don't have to admit you were wrong or anything like that, all you have to do is understand that the referendum result directly benefitted Russia and sent out the signal that the West was disunited (which we've continued to amplify since the result)

Putin has seen all this, and drawn the wrong conclusions, but he wouldn't have been able to draw those conclusions if there had been a different result

(and for balance, he's believed all the propaganda that his agents have been spreading in the US about Biden being too old to rule properly, and that has been proved to be decisively wrong as well)

He's gambled his country on believing false information that he spread, which shows just how bonkers all this is

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing Carole Cadwalla has been apologising for suggesting to avoid being sued into bankruptcy.
A quick look on Google suggests there's nothing to back up what you are saying.
Maybe you have some kind if evidence that Google isn't privy to?

I've seen nothing to suggest Biden has conclusively proved that theory wrong

[JohnMcGreal]

One factor to consider in the event of a major interruption to Europe's gas supply is that members of the EU's internal energy market will be obligated to prioritise those members first and foremost.

We're outside that market now and the amount of gas being sold externally could massively reduce.

[Buxtonclaret]

. it would be relatively simple to ban all property purchases and sales immediately by companies until they declared who the actual beneficiaries of it were and if they have links to russia make it a further condition that before any deal is allowed to progress they have to prove how they came legally by their money . our government is too beholding though to donations from people who have no interest in such legislation so it wont happen

But by doing that, might it be they'd be opening too many cans of worms that too many 'high profile' Brits - faceless or otherwise - would prefer to be left untouched.
Or am I being unkind and cynical.

[Lancasterclaret]

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing Carole Cadwalla has been apologising for suggesting to avoid being sued into bankruptcy.
A quick look on Google suggests there's nothing to back up what you are saying.
Maybe you have some kind if evidence that Google isn't privy to?

I've seen nothing to suggest Biden has conclusively proved that theory wrong

Like I said, you don't have to admit you were wrong, and there are legitimate reasons for leaving the EU, but us leaving the EU is a clear win for Russia

That is reality

But its done now, and I only mentioned it on this thread because it helps explain why Putin has done what he has done (as he sees its as one of several signs of Western disunity, which he has misjudged massively)

[ClaretLoup]

We must remember that WW2 really became inevitable when the Russians and Germans (Soviets and Nazis) signed an agreement to divide up Poland, but also other areas including Ukraine. Then later of course the Germans invaded Russia. Some sections of Ukrainians had not taken kindly to the Russians - they had suffered badly between the wars - and so these groups greeted the Nazis as liberators. They formed anti Soviet units including a Waffen SS division.

Stalin invaded the West Poland/Eastern Ukraine 2 weeks after Hitler invaded Poland which was part of the deal in the Ribbentrop/Molotov pact. Immediately land was collectivised and The kulaks along with Ukrainian nationalists were rounded up or fled to Germany. This area was annexed and became part of the USSR.

Stalin also created famine in the Ukraine in the 1930 by requisitioning grain from the Soviet held region. An estimated 5 million Ukrainians starved to death. The Soviets moved large numbers of ethnic Russian speaking citizens into the Baltic Republics to dilute and pacify the Nationality of the indigenous population pretty much like England did with The Protestant settlers in Northern Ireland. With respect to the Crimea the USSR moved the entire population of Tartars out of the area and Kruschev ceded it to the Ukraine. In this country there are clear well defined borders between Scotland Wales & England. In continental Europe there are mixtures of people with ethnic differences in most border areas so there are claims and counter claims for territory.

Pilfer seems to have no understanding of Nationalist ethnic and religious differences, the latter being very important in Eastern Europe with Ukrainians are mainly Greek Catholics and the Russians under the Russian Orthodox Church both emanating from the Byzantine Christian Era when Istanbul was the centre of the Catholic Church.

The Azov battalion are neo Nazis but in WW2 this country allied with Joe Stalin perhaps the biggest perpetrator of genocide in the history of the planet. Sometimes needs must, just as Ukrainian nationalist sided with Hitler, basically it was Hobson’s choice.

Why isn’t Pilger drawing attention to the thousands of anti war protesters being arrested in Russia , the attempted assassination of Navalny, and if he is talking about hypocrisy what about the systematic abuse & persecution of his fellow journalist by the Putin regime? Maybe because Pilger is using the Russian backed RT News as his platform.

[PeterWilton]

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing Carole Cadwalla has been apologising for suggesting to avoid being sued into bankruptcy.
A quick look on Google suggests there's nothing to back up what you are saying.
Maybe you have some kind if evidence that Google isn't privy to?

I've seen nothing to suggest Biden has conclusively proved that theory wrong

When all the same same people constantly take the pro-Russian side of a debate, regardless of whatever the issue being debated is, it's fair to make the assumption that it's not because they just happen to agree with Russia all the time.

[PeterWilton]

One factor to consider in the event of a major interruption to Europe's gas supply is that members of the EU's internal energy market will be obligated to prioritise those members first and foremost.

We're outside that market now and the amount of gas being sold externally could massively reduce.

lol. Oh yeah. Oops.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Like I said, you don't have to admit you were wrong, and there are legitimate reasons for leaving the EU, but us leaving the EU is a clear win for Russia

That is reality

But its done now, and I only mentioned it on this thread because it helps explain why Putin has done what he has done (as he sees its as one of several signs of Western disunity, which he has misjudged massively)

He's done what he's done because in 2014 the world watched him annex Crimea and did nothing, we were in the EU then with no hint of s referendum.
Then he's spent the time since then planning a bigger event and this is it.

Brexit is neither here nor there when it comes to Putin trying to restore the USSR.
In 2008 he told a US counterpart, Bush, that Ukraine isn't a country.

He's wanted this for years and he'd do it even if we were in the EU.

[aggi]

It would have been interesting (although it was never going to happen) if the leadership contest had gone the other way and Rory Stewart had got in rather than Johnson. Would someone with a far greater understanding of geopolitics (and arguably far less compromised) have made a difference?

[RicardoMontalban]

He's done what he's done because in 2014 the world watched him annex Crimea and did nothing, we were in the EU then with no hint of s referendum.
Then he's spent the time since then planning a bigger event and this is it.

Brexit is neither here nor there when it comes to Putin trying to restore the USSR.
In 2008 he told a US counterpart, Bush, that Ukraine isn't a country.

He's wanted this for years and he'd do it even if we were in the EU.

I think the point being made is that what emboldens Putin to the point where he feels he can do this, is the apparent disunity between western allies, and how that impedes their ability to effectively sanction him.

Absolutely 2014’s annexation of Crimea and the West’s non-response is a huge part of that, and probably the first visible step on the path that has brought us here. But the annexation of a region that has its own separatist identity that is pro-Russian is one thing, the full scale of invasion of a nation that absolutely sees itself as such is another.

As symptoms of that disintegration of unity, Brexit and the rise of Trumpism are right up there as well.

[PeterWilton]

He's done what he's done because in 2014 the world watched him annex Crimea and did nothing, we were in the EU then with no hint of s referendum.
Then he's spent the time since then planning a bigger event and this is it.

Brexit is neither here nor there when it comes to Putin trying to restore the USSR.
In 2008 he told a US counterpart, Bush, that Ukraine isn't a country.

He's wanted this for years and he'd do it even if we were in the EU.

I don't think anyone is saying he wouldn't do this if we were in the EU, or if he'd never got Trump elected, or if he hadn't been undermining western democracies and funding our alt-right for years. What we're saying is that he did all that in large part to make our response weaker.

[PeterWilton]

It would have been interesting (although it was never going to happen) if the leadership contest had gone the other way and Rory Stewart had got in rather than Johnson. Would someone with a far greater understanding of geopolitics (and arguably far less compromised) have made a difference?

I'd have much more confidence in our government if he was leader.

[Lancasterclaret]

He's done what he's done because in 2014 the world watched him annex Crimea and did nothing, we were in the EU then with no hint of s referendum.
Then he's spent the time since then planning a bigger event and this is it.

Brexit is neither here nor there when it comes to Putin trying to restore the USSR.
In 2008 he told a US counterpart, Bush, that Ukraine isn't a country.

He's wanted this for years and he'd do it even if we were in the EU.

Again, us leaving the EU is a Russian win

That is the reality

It doesn't matter which way you voted now, its done, but that doesn't mean you can pretend that it doesn't affect international politics because that is depressingly naïve

[taio]

Like I said, you don't have to admit you were wrong, and there are legitimate reasons for leaving the EU, but us leaving the EU is a clear win for Russia

That is reality

But its done now, and I only mentioned it on this thread because it helps explain why Putin has done what he has done (as he sees its as one of several signs of Western disunity, which he has misjudged massively)

Nice one for trying to turn it into a Brexit thing.

[Lancasterclaret]

Nice one for trying to turn it into a Brexit thing.

If you read the context of the thread, I'm trying (very badly I admit) to explain that Putin looks at things like Brexit as a sign of Western weakness

Thats it

[Lancasterclaret]

Charlie explained it far better than me in post three above mine

[elwaclaret]

The West has certainly encouraged Putin - the whole push towards expanded human rights was never going to go down well in Moscow. Brexit, right or wrong has been received as division, while Trump saw an American swerve towards totalitarianism and so it is little wonder Putin feels empowered. To blame the Tories is political short memory; Labour for the best intentions also cosied up to Russia and encouraged the Bear to Westernise. For twenty years Putin has watched his bag men be welcomed with open arms and facilitate his money laundering in the west and shared the trough with traitors. People should remember also (like or loath her) Pretty Patel announced a couple of weeks ago announced a clampdown on dirty money swilling around Britain (looking further East than Russia at the time)… there are many pockets being filled with cash in Parliament that are in position because of their abilities to turn a blind eye and give a nod and a wink.

To ignore the West part of all this is not patriotism it is blinkered acceptance that our own system stinks with corruption. However those who think this is a local dispute really aught to look at the ‘Old Russian Empire’ when Russia turns on the rest of the Balkans we are obliged to defend our allies… the Balkans is another area Russia has always claimed as their own and I’m sure even those with no interest in history must be aware that has already triggered not one but 2 World Wars.

The bottom line Putin has shown time and time agin he is a schoolyard bully and state sponsored gangster, while the West has had a primary policy of short term wishful thinking and no long term plan. Half arsed posturing is not what is needed from the West now. Letting Ukraine slip behind the curtain is NOT an option… Putin is not going to stop unless he is forced to. Whether Russia rebels or the West make it happen the regime in Russia must be made to pay a price Russia will never forget for their breaking of international law (again) and destabilising Europe.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Nice one for trying to turn it into a Brexit thing.

I don’t think it’s necessarily a Brexit thing.
Surely nobody can deny the US and UK are more divided now than any time in recent history.
Whichever side you are on you’d be hard push to make an argument against it.

[RingoMcCartney]

There were legitimate reasons for leaving the EU, but the people who pushed them into the mainstream and magnified those reasons to include blatant falsehoods were funded 100% by Russia

Any evidence of this swivel eyed claim that could persuade people from believing you're talking 100 % b*******s?

Thought not...

[bfcjg]

Come on guys,please leave Brexit and petty point scoring elsewhere or private message each other. There are a lot of people interested in the dynamics of what is happening on the ground we don't want this thread locking.

[Damo]

When all the same same people constantly take the pro-Russian side of a debate, regardless of whatever the issue being debated is, it's fair to make the assumption that it's not because they just happen to agree with Russia all the time.

I've not taken any side of the debate.
It's no wonder you burn accounts the way you do

[Damo]

Like I said, you don't have to admit you were wrong, and there are legitimate reasons for leaving the EU, but us leaving the EU is a clear win for Russia

That is reality

But its done now, and I only mentioned it on this thread because it helps explain why Putin has done what he has done (as he sees its as one of several signs of Western disunity, which he has misjudged massively)

I know I don't mate.
Carole Cadwaller didn't have to admit she was wrong.
She did though, before it went to court

[Lancasterclaret]

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1497161294776053787

Anyway, this is interesting

It does suggest that Russia is not finding it the cake walk it expected

(again, Putin believing his own propaganda and his staff being too scared to tell him otherwise)

[RingoMcCartney]

I remember lancaster claret claiming peace in Europe was entirely down to the EU. !!! ( despite it not even existing after WW2!)

Well the EU won't back excluding Russia from SWIFT banking system thanks to effectively being vetoed by Germany and Italy , thanks to their climate change obseession / green agends which has lead them to being over reliant on Putin funding Russian gas.

EU/ European unity being a force for peace in Europe!!!




You are having a laugh.

[Lancasterclaret]

Come on guys,please leave Brexit and petty point scoring elsewhere or private message each other. There are a lot of people interested in the dynamics of what is happening on the ground we don't want this thread locking.

Sorry bfcjg, my fault for not explaining myself properly about the way Putin sees Western disunity

[Sottpark1 !]

Sadly without military support or aid it is only a matter of time before the Russians overcome the Ukraine, with nothing to counteract Russian air superiority, be it interfering with their communications or missiles it is only days , their battle to take the airport last evening shows they will strangle any potential supply lines , then their special forces will target members of the Ukrainian leadership and key installations a surrender or ceasefire will be inevitable.Then an insurgency will begin , will we support this or will it wither and die , we have only ourselves to blame for our lily livered responses and mere platitudes, our cowardly Prine Minister abs his corrupt party beholden to Russian money accrued from dubious sources, , Russia is a ruthless operator and as shown in various locations it is not above anything, then we really will have to impose meaningful sanctions and support the Ukraine

[RingoMcCartney]

I know I don't mate.
Carole Cadwaller didn't have to admit she was wrong.
She did though, before it went to court

Zero proof of Russian interference in referendum.


Lancasterclaret will never ever admit he was wrong. Never.

[Damo]

One factor to consider in the event of a major interruption to Europe's gas supply is that members of the EU's internal energy market will be obligated to prioritise those members first and foremost.

We're outside that market now and the amount of gas being sold externally could massively reduce.

20% of gas extracted in UK waters is exported.
While the North Sea isn't as abundant in reserves as it once was, there are still plenty of gas and oil fields that are a quick change to climate agreements away from being explored.
We have plenty of options should the EU refuse to export their fossil fuels to the UK

[PeterWilton]

Come on guys,please leave Brexit and petty point scoring elsewhere or private message each other. There are a lot of people interested in the dynamics of what is happening on the ground we don't want this thread locking.

It is impossible to talk about the strength of western responses to Russian aggression without talking about the means by which Russia has worked to weaken our responses.

Seriously. If we have a weak-as-**** response to Russia how do we talk about that without talking about why we have a weak-as-**** response? And how can we talk about the "why" when certain issues that help explain that are banned from being brought up?

[Lancasterclaret]

Sadly without military support or aid it is only a matter of time before the Russians overcome the Ukraine, with nothing to counteract Russian air superiority, be it interfering with their communications or missiles it is only days , their battle to take the airport last evening shows they will strangle any potential supply lines , then their special forces will target members of the Ukrainian leadership and key installations a surrender or ceasefire will be inevitable.Then an insurgency will begin , will we support this or will it wither and die , we have only ourselves to blame for our lily livered responses and mere platitudes, our cowardly Prine Minister abs his corrupt party beholden to Russian money accrued from dubious sources, , Russia is a ruthless operator and as shown in various locations it is not above anything, then we really will have to impose meaningful sanctions and support the Ukraine

Thing is, they can't possibly control all Ukraine with what they have

If the population continues to resist, then there is no way that Russia can achieve its goals

The huge problem is that Russia has massive previous with trying to subjugate populations in Chechnya and reacted very violently

Good luck trying to stop those pics coming out