Russia Invades

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:51 pm

Cubanforever wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:45 pm
Saw it earlier but all the noises are that NATO would still hold off.....which would be shameful in my opinion

I think talking about it and seeing it will be different; its genocide and with current performance will gas the whole Black Sea region.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:52 pm

UK MOD saying the likes of Wagner are in the Ukraine again

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:52 pm

Cubanforever wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:45 pm
Saw it earlier but all the noises are that NATO would still hold off.....which would be shameful in my opinion

I think the pressure on them to go in would be massive from the public tbh. At this point I'd like to see Biden or NATO state that the use of such weapons will be treated as a red line, to me it seems the West bend over and take it when Putin comes with his threats but then offer nothing in return other than the longer term sanctions. We simply can't have chemical warfare in Europe and all stand by and watch

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:53 pm

BBC World Service confirming US Senates fear over Chemical Weapons

https://twitter.com/bbcworld/status/150 ... 70019?s=21

Cubanforever · Post by **Cubanforever** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:01 am

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:52 pm
I think the pressure on them to go in would be massive from the public tbh. At this point I'd like to see Biden or NATO state that the use of such weapons will be treated as a red line, to me it seems the West bend over and take it when Putin comes with his threats but then offer nothing in return other than the longer term sanctions. We simply can't have chemical warfare in Europe and all stand by and watch

Exactly what I think.....but he would dress it up to the world that it was Ukraine that did it

Cubanforever · Post by **Cubanforever** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:13 am

Wile E Coyote wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:03 am
so you didnt see it, and jump in with both clumsy feet into nothingness.
its not as if the west were blameless regarding foreign interventions being unwanted.
All countries rely on propaganda, that's to be expected, but once the values of fairness and seeing both sides of an argument evaporate , then nationalistic bullshit leads to blindness and extremism.
Look at the weapons trade prior to all of this, look at the countries that have been bombed and had civilians slaughtered. It simple isn't black and white. Is NATO the white knight on the horse, or are there other issues we are happy to turn our collective backs on ?

None of us are whiter than white but now when it's close to home we have to be effective to protect ourselves and our allies.....its not a perfect world and we can't protect it all with its many complications but when it comes close to home attitudes change naturally.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:13 am

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:52 pm
UK MOD saying the likes of Wagner are in the Ukraine again

Escalation without escalation. But its a good sign that the pro Putin crew are now having to cut all pretence - so that’s them in the firing line when its all over, sharing Putin’s gallows.

The fact is with thousands desperate to stop him the contrition war is also unwindable by any conventional means, they’ve already lost too much - people will soon notice their empty bases and lack of police on the beat as Putin grabs for a quick reserve - ultimately that leaves them vulnerable, from both within and without. We have said all along it is Ukraine’s fight, but at the end of the day it is a conflict that NATO will ultimately, make sure Ukraine do not lose.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:29 am

Putin has been isolated and his mind has basically festered, without any outside input his mind has warped on grievances, suggests Lawrence Freedman (more politely) on tonight’s Question Time

https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/sta ... 33603?s=21

Taffy on the wing · Post by **Taffy on the wing** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:31 am

KRBFC wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:11 pm
Trump calls the Ukraine invasion a ''disgraceful situation'', this interview shits on everyone who claims he supports Putin's decision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRbRoQc ... ENDPODCAST

He's an opportunist & a serial liar...a Coward of the first order ....a bully..a cheat & a traitor......please don't bring him into the conversation!

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:51 am

Twitter now playing the game

Cubanforever · Post by **Cubanforever** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:57 am

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:51 am
Twitter now playing the game

The Russian people is where ultimately the war needs to be won.....and they'll have to be brave to win it

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:08 am

May have been posted (I got it on a retweet) but this is certainly worth a read, seems we’ve overestimated Russian capabilities somewhat…. Again… we massively overestimated Soviet capability behind the Iron Curtain too. The threads of a failing regime are coming together. Michael Kofman via Stanimir Dobrev

https://twitter.com/delfoo/status/15016 ... 44869?s=21

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:11 am

Cubanforever wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:57 am
The Russian people is where ultimately the war needs to be won.....and they'll have to be brave to win it

If only they had an ounce of the Ukrainian's bravery. Maybe I'm getting too emotional about seeing these poor people get obliterated but I'm starting to get seriously ****** off with the West and it's complete lack of balls

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:19 am

Russian Tankers that have been turned away a week ago are still looking for a port that is willing to accept it, and it is not the only one. REUTERS

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1501 ... 94629?s=21

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:23 am

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:11 am
If only they had an ounce of the Ukrainian's bravery. Maybe I'm getting too emotional about seeing these poor people get obliterated but I'm starting to get seriously ****** off with the West and it's complete lack of balls

Mass desertions, apparently - don’t think its got much to do with lack of bravery, though. It’s hard to fight and kill someone who you share such history with, people you respect and even in many cases admire. They just do not want to be there, but know the price of disobeying rather than being ‘captured’.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:38 am

elwaclaret wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:23 am
Mass desertions, apparently - don’t think its got much to do with lack of bravery, though. It’s hard to fight and kill someone who you share such history with, people you respect and even in many cases admire. They just do not want to be there, but know the price of disobeying rather than being ‘captured’.

I'm talking about the Russian people MASS turning on Putin - they don't (as of now) seem to have the stomach for it

I also think the noises coming out of the West are weak - it's almost like they are saying "well we don't want to do that because we might upset Putin".
I'm obviously well aware of treading a fine line but before a single shot was fired we all knew that Putin and Russia talk as much crap as Kim Jong-un. We all knew that they didn't have anywhere near the amount of conventional weaponry they said and absolutely knew the Air Force wasn't anywhere near the level they claimed it to be (not even close)

Clearly we have no way of tracking Nukes so have to take our intelligent communities word for it.

Tricky situation, but are we going to ask Yves St Laurent to stop selling perfume in Moscow when they drop chemical weapons ? (random company, random example if course)

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:43 am

and just to add, when the UK/West sends the next batch of weapons and the Ukrainians start shooting down more missiles and aircraft then it's pretty clear Putin will escalate and just launch chemicals or nukes anyway - by which point isn't that too late ?

I wouldn't like to be making any of these decisions, just having a conversation with you all !

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:53 am

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:48 am

KRBFC wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:11 pm
Trump calls the Ukraine invasion a ''disgraceful situation'', this interview shits on everyone who claims he supports Putin's decision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRbRoQc ... ENDPODCAST

did you see this week where he said that the US should paint Chinese flags on the F22's and just bomb Russia............and no, i'm not joking

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:26 am

worth a read
https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status ... Mg6c4UbA2A

RicardoMontalban · Post by **RicardoMontalban** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:00 am

KRBFC wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:11 pm
Trump calls the Ukraine invasion a ''disgraceful situation'', this interview shits on everyone who claims he supports Putin's decision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRbRoQc ... ENDPODCAST

Unfortunately it does no such thing. Trump is an empty windsock, blowing in any direction he thinks gets him the most kudos. When this whole thing started he went out of his way to say how smart Putin was and how it was all genius. As things have progressed and he’s realised how out of step he is he’s shifted his view, but it’s not down to any deeply held convictions or morals. He’s just some vacuous, ham-faced, foghorn. Parping his way across the internet.

RicardoMontalban · Post by **RicardoMontalban** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:03 am

https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1 ... 21281?s=21

Quick thread on the predicament Putin now finds himself with regards to extricating himself from this.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:19 am

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:37 pm
https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/statu ... 8514374664

Not good

Russia has massive previous for using chemical weapons in Syria (which people were more than happy to blame on the Israelis) but if they do this then that is a massive escalation which NATO would have to react to

Can you give some evidence of this? I understood only Syria actually used chemical weapons, as well as perhaps ISIS.

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:24 am

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:53 am
...

Guessing games then.

Newcastleclaret93 · Post by **Newcastleclaret93** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:31 am

Am I being Naiive? But surely this war ends when Ukraine concede the Donbas region.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:40 am

KateR wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:53 pm
An alternative view from Paul H. Tice for some to consider
Energy & Infrastructure, Investor/Adjunct Professor

The main energy takeaway from the Russia-Ukraine war is not that the U.S. or the world needs to accelerate the shift to renewable power and fuel sources. Rather, the conflict is a warning shot that countries need to develop their own in-house natural hydrocarbon resources and fortify their sovereign oil and gas supply lines. National economies (like many in Western Europe) based on intermittent power sources such as wind and solar cannot project political or military power, as we are now seeing with the European/NATO response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And military forces cannot run on SAF, biodiesel or solar panels. Note that the current war in Ukraine is taking place during the winter and mostly at night, which is exactly when “the wind don’t blow and the sun don’t shine.” Lastly, petroleum helped turned the tide in both world wars when the good guys (not the dictators) won.

Is he sponsored by the oil industry?

He has a point of course but it's not the whole picture and he overplays or is simply wrong - since when doesn't the wind blow in Winter or at night?

Europe/NATO's overall response is nothing to do with oil or gas - we don't want a nuclear war. The economic war is certainly made more difficult by our using Russian sources but it's being sorted out. Finally WW1 was not an oil war - coal was still the major source of energy. It may have been a small factor in the outcome but was not decisive. WW2 was an oil war and we in the UK had very little 'in-house' oil, only coal and coal gas. And of course Stalin, a dictator, was on the winning side.

Funnily enough that convoy stuck north of Kviv haven't got any fuel and they are diesel motors!

Overall most countries are trading nations - the UK certainly is - and in normal times we don't need in-house supplies of hydrocarbons. In war it is different but do we live for war?

And of course he overlooks the major catastrophe on the horizon - climate change.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:41 am

https://twitter.com/JominiW/status/1501824670563196928

Day 14 summary

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:44 am

Hipper wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:19 am
Can you give some evidence of this? I understood only Syria actually used chemical weapons, as well as perhaps ISIS.

Russian proxy state used Russian supplied chemical weapons

I'm struggling to see the difference

I'd like to see the sources that you are using as the background for your comments on this thread btw

(Not arsey btw, just genuinely interested!)

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:45 am

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:31 am
Am I being Naiive? But surely this war ends when Ukraine concede the Donbas region.

That wouldn't be enough for Putin. I think it would take a complete surrender by the Ukrainian government and the installation of a Russian puppet government in Kiev.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:50 am

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:44 am
Russian proxy state used Russian supplied chemical weapons

I'm struggling to see the difference

I'd like to see the sources that you are using as the background for your comments on this thread btw

(Not arsey btw, just genuinely interested!)

Such as what for example?

Chemical weapons - just what I recall although Wiki confirms (people argue about Wiki but on the whole it's good).

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:53 am

By the way, I though Syria made their own chemical weapons.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:18 am

Abramovich sanctioned

Chelsea sale on hold

Oh, if only we knew that while they were singing his name on sat eh?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:19 am

Hipper wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:50 am
Such as what for example?

Chemical weapons - just what I recall although Wiki confirms (people argue about Wiki but on the whole it's good).

Wiki is not a source I'd be comfortable quoting if I was trying to dispute points

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:20 am

Hipper wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:53 am
By the way, I though Syria made their own chemical weapons.

No idea, bellingcat have done some great research on Russian/Syrian chemical attacks on their own people

Well worth some of your time I feel

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:22 am

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:18 am
Abramovich sanctioned

Chelsea sale on hold

Oh, if only we knew that while they were singing his name on sat eh?

It's going to be interesting to see if this restricts Chelsea in anyway, like paying wages etc.

Newcastleclaret93 · Post by **Newcastleclaret93** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:23 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:22 am
It's going to be interesting to see if this restricts Chelsea in anyway, like paying wages etc.

They can’t sell tickets anymore.

Only season ticket holders can attend there games now

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:23 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:22 am
It's going to be interesting to see if this restricts Chelsea in anyway, like paying wages etc.

Huge

They are screwed if this continues past this season

It couldn't happen to a nicer club

RicardoMontalban · Post by **RicardoMontalban** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:24 am

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:18 am
Abramovich sanctioned

Chelsea sale on hold

Oh, if only we knew that while they were singing his name on sat eh?

https://twitter.com/martynziegler/stat ... 45571?s=21

Not allowed to sell any more tickets, only ST holders allowed in. How’s that going to work? What does that mean for away fans? What about player trading?

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:24 am

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:23 am
They can’t sell tickets anymore.

Only season ticket holders can attend there games now

I assume it also prevents them selling refreshments etc

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:28 am

RicardoMontalban wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:24 am
https://twitter.com/martynziegler/stat ... 45571?s=21

Not allowed to sell any more tickets, only ST holders allowed in. How’s that going to work? What does that mean for away fans? What about player trading?

None

I mean, we'll have to wait for a bit more info but anything that involves money moving in or out of the club is blocked

Gibbo · Post by **Gibbo** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:28 am

Hoped they would sanctioned Abramovich but never believed they would. Great news.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:29 am

https://twitter.com/martynziegler/statu ... 9417401347

There you go

I wouldn't normally celebrate this but after the way they acted on Saturday I'm chuckling away quite merrily here

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:31 am

Taffy on the wing wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:31 am
He's an opportunist & a serial liar...a Coward of the first order ....a bully..a cheat & a traitor......please don't bring him into the conversation!

He’s also the only POTUS in the last 30 years who hasn’t either invaded a foreign country or started a war with anyone.

Gibbo · Post by **Gibbo** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:31 am

I would also love it, if they got kicked out of European competitions, a possibility surely.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:32 am

https://twitter.com/martynziegler/statu ... 1442958336

Here are the license details

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:32 am

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:18 am
Abramovich sanctioned

Chelsea sale on hold

Oh, if only we knew that while they were singing his name on sat eh?

Has he had enough time to move things around to minimise the effect? I’d say two weeks would be plenty….

Newcastleclaret93 · Post by **Newcastleclaret93** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:35 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:24 am
I assume it also prevents them selling refreshments etc

I believe it prevents all business taking place. So club shop will be closed, no refreshments, no online shirt sales etc….

Quite a substantial hit for the club. I guess it will all come out very soon.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:37 am

bobinho wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:32 am
Has he had enough time to move things around to minimise the effect? I’d say two weeks would be plenty….

I don't know

The thing is, the sheer complexity of modern business arrangements the size of his will stop him being able to do a right lot, plus I suspect a feeling that why does this involve him?

Certainly he can't pretend anymore (or sue anyone) who says he's a friend of Putin when the UK government have sanctioned him

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:43 am

Wile E Coyote wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:05 pm
Anyone seen the John Pilger assessment of the prelude to all of this?
I can't claim to know much about the political/geographic history in this region, but it does make me wonder where the truth lies sometimes.

An American gent called Peter Zeihan is a geopolitical analyst. He has written 3 books . The first published about 15 years ago explains why Russia needs to take Ukraine and needed to do it before a certain time frame.

He does news letters which can be found on his website.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:50 am

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:31 am
Am I being Naiive? But surely this war ends when Ukraine concede the Donbas region.

Russias demands currently are that.

Ukraine demilitarises .
Does not join NATO
Recognises Crimea as Russian
Gives up the Donbas region.

So several years ago Ukraine gave up its Nukes as Russia agreed it would never attack it, we agreed to defend it if they did. Russia now attacks.

If Ukraine agreed to demilitarisation, Russia would back off, regroup, make more tanks etc and walk In unopposed in 2-5 years time.