Burnley possession ranking

[ClaretPete001]

That is indeed a significant part of the problem. But the fact we've become less good on the ball is demonstrable. That season we finished 7th, Jack Cork made an average of 42 passes a game, and made more than 80% of them successfully. Defour's were even better. Cork's own stats this season are that he makes 23 a game and only 74% successfully, whilst Westwood and Brownhill are in the mid-70s whilst making 31 and 40 a game respectively. So we're passing the ball through midfield less, and doing so less accurately.

Whilst it is true that we beat Liverpool with 20% of the ball, firstly that's to some extent an exception which proves the rule, and secondly even within that 20% it's what you do with it. With Defour in the team, we had an ability that all Dyche's best teams have had - someone in midfield who can hold the ball for a second under pressure, and find an easy pass to relieve pressure. First he had Dave Jones, then he had Barton, then he had Defour, then he had Cork. The best of his teams had 2 of them in tandem. Now we line up without a single player who can do that job (Cork's the best but he's failing). That's had a huge impact on our ability to manipulate the ball, absorb pressure and build constructive attacks.

I don't think the Liverpool game was the exception that proved the rule. We've had 2 promotions and a Championship title under Dyche as well as 6 seasons in the Premiership. He has transitioned the squad to finish 7th in 2017/18 with four more seasons after that...!

We haven't had this much success since in the modern era. All based on the same style. So, whatever debate you want to make the problem is NOT Sean Dyche or the system. As all the pundits point out even the third biggest club in Spain cannot turn up to play City and expect to compete on footballing terms. It would be just plain stupid.

In 2017 we had in centre midfield: Cork, Defour, Westwood and Hendrick in their prime to choose from. Now we have Cork, Brownhill, Westwood and Stephens. Three of whom are not at their peak.

That is where it has gone wrong - who is to blame for that is conjecture. My view is that it is probably is not Sean Dyche.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Some very good points above, and on the last page, the relevance to today is that even a fading Cork is closer to our peak seasons that whatever else we have.

Cork’s stats this season are better than our average but even then are deceiving.

He has played Man City home and away, Man Utd away, Liverpool away, West Ham at home, Wolves away and Spurs at home. Ok we got 5 points from the last three but that bunch of games is bound to make stats look worse.

The only really bad result for us at the Turf with Cork playing was that initial Brighton game, a game where we were VERY dominant in the first half.

I see tonight as a defining moment for Dyche with the choices he makes, he has other defining moments in the past but now I see it that if we get decent possession and keep the ball moving, on the deck ideally, we win tonight and if we keep doing it, we stay up. I worry though that Dyche doesn’t see it the same way.

[Vino blanco]

I've been saying it for two seasons, our midfield worse than awful. No ball retention, no defensive coverage, no creativity whatsoever: the midfield, in my opinion, is the most important part of the team, it should protect the defence, move the ball forward at pace and feed the strikers. I said on here at the beginning of the season we would get relegated with our current midfield and was laughed at: I take no pleasure in repeating it again now....our amateurish, predictable and badly coached midfield is our downfall. But I suppose it all comes down to fine margins, adapting to the framework, getting the details right, after all, we aren't that far away.

[claretspice]

I don't think the Liverpool game was the exception that proved the rule. We've had 2 promotions and a Championship title under Dyche as well as 6 seasons in the Premiership. He has transitioned the squad to finish 7th in 2017/18 with four more seasons after that...!

We haven't had this much success since in the modern era. All based on the same style. So, whatever debate you want to make the problem is NOT Sean Dyche or the system. As all the pundits point out even the third biggest club in Spain cannot turn up to play City and expect to compete on footballing terms. It would be just plain stupid.

In 2017 we had in centre midfield: Cork, Defour, Westwood and Hendrick in their prime to choose from. Now we have Cork, Brownhill, Westwood and Stephens. Three of whom are not at their peak.

That is where it has gone wrong - who is to blame for that is conjecture. My view is that it is probably is not Sean Dyche.

It's not the same style throught the Dyche era though. I'm not saying we've completely transformed from a tika-taka team to the Crazy Gang, but the style or tactical approach has evolved. That team in 2017/18 played more patient football than this one does, or can. It also sat deeper and didn't press as high as we do now (Westwood and Brownhill are better athletes than Cork or Defour were then). These are changes of degree rather than transformation but they are relevant.

I don't disagree with your diagnosis that the players we have now have grown old. But Westwood wasn't as good at playing patient possession football as Cork or Defour when we signed him. I'm just observing that we have become more direct, more rudimentary, in our approach - as the stats bear out. Who takes the blame for that is a different and very lengthy conversation. I am sure resources play a part, but I also suspect that Dyche has become a bit "bunkered" in his mentality over the years. It may well be that he's come to regard the direct approach as our point of difference that we should play up to - and if so, he may be right given the resources at his disposal, but I'm not sure that is absolutely a given and regardless, it makes for a tough watch at times.

[RVclaret]

I don't think the Liverpool game was the exception that proved the rule. We've had 2 promotions and a Championship title under Dyche as well as 6 seasons in the Premiership. He has transitioned the squad to finish 7th in 2017/18 with four more seasons after that...!

We haven't had this much success since in the modern era. All based on the same style. So, whatever debate you want to make the problem is NOT Sean Dyche or the system. As all the pundits point out even the third biggest club in Spain cannot turn up to play City and expect to compete on footballing terms. It would be just plain stupid.

In 2017 we had in centre midfield: Cork, Defour, Westwood and Hendrick in their prime to choose from. Now we have Cork, Brownhill, Westwood and Stephens. Three of whom are not at their peak.

That is where it has gone wrong - who is to blame for that is conjecture. My view is that it is probably is not Sean Dyche.

Dyche had wanted Stephens for years. He could have pushed for midfield to be a priority signing in either January or last summer (ideally) but £40m was spent elsewhere. Maybe the previous board refused to spend and waste big money on midfielders Dyche wanted due to their lack of resale value / his history with not playing big money signings. It’s hilarious to what extent some people go to to defend him like he’s blameless.

[harpers_perm]

I don't buy it, you can prove anything facts.

[ClaretPete001]

It's not the same style throught the Dyche era though. I'm not saying we've completely transformed from a tika-taka team to the Crazy Gang, but the style or tactical approach has evolved. That team in 2017/18 played more patient football than this one does, or can. It also sat deeper and didn't press as high as we do now (Westwood and Brownhill are better athletes than Cork or Defour were then). These are changes of degree rather than transformation but they are relevant.

I don't disagree with your diagnosis that the players we have now have grown old. But Westwood wasn't as good at playing patient possession football as Cork or Defour when we signed him. I'm just observing that we have become more direct, more rudimentary, in our approach - as the stats bear out. Who takes the blame for that is a different and very lengthy conversation. I am sure resources play a part, but I also suspect that Dyche has become a bit "bunkered" in his mentality over the years. It may well be that he's come to regard the direct approach as our point of difference that we should play up to - and if so, he may be right given the resources at his disposal, but I'm not sure that is absolutely a given and regardless, it makes for a tough watch at times.

I think the system is the same the stylistic differences are because the players cannot do what they once did. Cork cannot top the yards covered tables as he once did and that means that we cannot penetrate as well, which makes Westwood's relative lack of penetration look worse.

Equally, we haven't had a second centre forward to hold up play as well as Barnes did, which impacted upon Wood and our ability to transition to attack. I don't think what you are seeing is a change in system but a decline in our ability to play it.

I think at our peak we were a great to watch sucking teams in and spitting them out playing very technical football with 2 banks of four and classic transition play. For a period, Defour added a touch of class but fundamentally Marney and Hendrick were also very prosaic but effective players.

Like everything, it's painful when it is done badly so I agree with that...! And it's all about opinions, Dyche may well have contributed to the decline in the squad and become stuck in his ways, I just don't think he is the main problem.

[superdimitri]

I don't see it that way at all. We've just haven't improved enough like other teams have (they generally spent more than we did though). We have a better team now then we had before when the likes of Marney and Hendrick played but everyone else has just improved so much more.

We will be stronger next season regardless of the league we're in. Let's hope we can pull off the great escape and use the money wisely.

[dandeclaret]

Dyche had wanted Stephens for years. He could have pushed for midfield to be a priority signing in either January or last summer (ideally) but £40m was spent elsewhere. Maybe the previous board refused to spend and waste big money on midfielders Dyche wanted due to their lack of resale value / his history with not playing big money signings. It’s hilarious to what extent some people go to to defend him like he’s blameless.

Which big money signings has he not played? Gibson?

[tiger76]

Which big money signings has he not played? Gibson?

Vydra cost £11m, and he's hardly been a regular has he. Drinkwater cost us a fortune in wages and barely featured, ditto Stephens, who's proved to be a dreadful signing.

[dandeclaret]

Stephens cost £1m - in the premier league - hardly a dreadful signing. That is just not big money. Drinkwater was a loan - in the premier league - again, it's not big money. Vydra has played as part of a squad. Only 11 can start every week ffs.

[claretspice]

I think the more plausible criticism of Dyche isn't that he's spent money badly, but that there's a suspicion (let's not put it higher than that) that he's blocked attempts to sell the likes of Tarky leaving when his value was up because he wanted to hold onto his players.

Whoever in fact is to blame, we will allow players to leave on a free this summer who might have yielded 40m in income last summer. Had Tarkowski been sold two summers ago he might have gone for now far off that on his own.

Collectively, management has delayed the inevitable rebuild at the cost of bringing in the revenues which might have revitalised the squad.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Stephens cost £1m - in the premier league - hardly a dreadful signing. That is just not big money. Drinkwater was a loan - in the premier league - again, it's not big money. Vydra has played as part of a squad. Only 11 can start every week ffs.

You're forgetting that some people have switched from quoting transfer fees, to quoting fees AND wages to inflate the numbers they're using when pushing their agendas.
It's been done that way for a while and even then they aren't entirely accurate with their figures

[jojomk1]

What do people expect from a team of hasbeens, never hasbeens , and few makeweight champ players ? Personally I believe Dyche has worked miracles with the utter rubbish we’ve been able to bring in due to a grotesque lack of funds and inability to pay the preposterous wages good players expect .

But most of these utter rubbish "hasbeens" and makeweight champ players have been eagerly brought in by Dyche

Not because of funding, but because he has a big preference for age over youth

[jojomk1]

I think the more plausible criticism of Dyche isn't that he's spent money badly, but that there's a suspicion (let's not put it higher than that) that he's blocked attempts to sell the likes of Tarky leaving when his value was up because he wanted to hold onto his players.

Whoever in fact is to blame, we will allow players to leave on a free this summer who might have yielded 40m in income last summer. Had Tarkowski been sold two summers ago he might have gone for now far off that on his own.

Collectively, management has delayed the inevitable rebuild at the cost of bringing in the revenues which might have revitalised the squad.

I would suspect also that he didn't want to sell Tarks say 18 months ago because he had not brought anyone in beforehand (match ready) as a suitable replacement - forward planning Sean!

As for Collins - may be a good buy, but not ready to go straight into the first team immediately plus was he not the first signing under ALK (with less input from SD)

[dandeclaret]

If I'm reading right, the criticism is that the club didn't sell our best players?

That would have gone down well with the masses wouldn't it?

If you look up "No win situation" in the English guide to phrases, reportedly there's just a picture of James Tarkowski.

[dandeclaret]

I would suspect also that he didn't want to sell Tarks say 18 months ago because he had not brought anyone in beforehand (match ready) as a suitable replacement - forward planning Sean!

As for Collins - may be a good buy, but not ready to go straight into the first team immediately plus was he not the first signing under ALK (with less input from SD)

Yeah Sean - forward plan, you know, like signing an England international centre half who you expected to be that player, that had an incident in training and had to leave the club. FFS Burnley - can't you do anything right?

[nyclaret]

Early team news for tonight:

McNeil dropped
Cork dropped
Jay and Cornet starting
Collins back in

[Jakubclaret]

If I'm reading right, the criticism is that the club didn't sell our best players?

That would have gone down well with the masses wouldn't it?

If you look up "No win situation" in the English guide to phrases, reportedly there's just a picture of James Tarkowski.

You can actually reach a balance of not selling the player & also ensure the player doesn’t leave for free. After the Leicester & West Ham & toe stubbing incident a few windows have been & gone since, you could have even agreed an in principle decision with him & a interested club, identified the replacement & released him & paid for the replacement & made profit, any other way is an neanderthal backward business approach, nobody seems to know their arsehole from their elbow anymore at the club hence so many preventable problems.

[boyyanno]

Stephens cost £1m - in the premier league - hardly a dreadful signing. That is just not big money. Drinkwater was a loan - in the premier league - again, it's not big money. Vydra has played as part of a squad. Only 11 can start every week ffs.

With all due respect they could have paid us 1million and he would have still been a dreadful signing. Sometimes it's not about the money.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You can actually reach a balance of not selling the player & also ensure the player doesn’t leave for free. After the Leicester & West Ham & toe stubbing incident a few windows have been & gone since, you could have even agreed an in principle decision with him & a interested club, identified the replacement & released him & paid for the replacement & made profit, any other way is an neanderthal backward business approach, nobody seems to know their arsehole from their elbow anymore at the club hence so many preventable problems.

Someone had better tell PSG and Utd they're using a backwards business approach to Mbappe and Pogba respectively

[dandeclaret]

With all due respect they could have paid us 1million and he would have still been a dreadful signing. Sometimes it's not about the money.

You're right, it's about your expectations.

[Jakubclaret]

Someone had better tell PSG and Utd they're using a backwards business approach to Mbappe and Pogba respectively

Plenty of deals are done under the radar whilst people are still contracted, if you think conversations don’t go like see this season out & then you’ll get your move then fair enough I don’t.

[boyyanno]

You're right, it's about your expectations.

What a stupid comment. It's about what the club required at the time- Stephens was not and never looked to be that player.

Imagine expecting to be taken seriously and trying to argue that Stephens was anything but a dreadful signing, years after signing him, having played naff all games and after getting done for drink driving

[Murger]

Mind blowing that to some people, Dyche is completely blame free in the shite that gets served up.

[dandeclaret]

Context, context, context.