Muric

[taio]

Because they weren’t playing at that level? If they were they’d have been doing it.

My point is here that Muric is playing in a top of the league Championship side, neither Pope nor Heaton were doing the same at his age. They improved immensely throughout their 20’s and you’d expect Muric to do the same.

They were both playing Championship football around their mid-twenties. Just because they weren't a year or so prior doesn't mean they were nowhere near good enough.

[Nori1958]

Because they weren’t playing at that level? If they were they’d have been doing it.

My point is here that Muric is playing in a top of the league Championship side, neither Pope nor Heaton were doing the same at his age. They improved immensely throughout their 20’s and you’d expect Muric to do the same.

How do you know they improved? Did you watch them regularly? Had you even heard of them?
There are lots of goalkeepers playing at a lower level than Muric who are better in relation to basic goalkeeping

[boatshed bill]

There are lots of goalkeepers playing at a lower level than Muric who are better in relation to basic goalkeeping

When you make a statement like that it begs the obvious...

please could you name them?

[Nori1958]

When you make a statement like that it begs the obvious...

please could you name them?

The lad at Plymouth we were linked with....

[boatshed bill]

The lad at Plymouth we were linked with....

The same lad who some on here said wouldn't be good enough.
He certainly has the potential to go a long way....

any others?

[boyyanno]

Fair, though there are always 'flaws' with most data, and that's why it's not to be used on its own. I think their assumption that keepers are generally in the centre of their goal is fine. The rest of the model makes sense and that's why it's used by professionals.

That's the point though, you are using this data "on it's own" I don't think that assumption is fine or fair, given it's very far from the truth. Note the comments above about Muric rushing out to play the passes at the back, you've said as much yourself. I'm not saying your point is wrong though, just that stats like these don't really add weight to an argument either way. Professionals do use statistics but not every stat is used and it's often about the platform clubs can utilise as opposed to the individual stats they can access. Clubs still use the "eyes" test for a reason.

[Nori1958]

The same lad who some on here said wouldn't be good enough.
He certainly has the potential to go a long way....

any others?

Goalie at Wycombe...... How long do you want to play this game?

[NewClaret]

The lad at Plymouth we were linked with....

How often have you watched him?

And you said lots, who are the others??

[RVclaret]

That's the point though, you are using this data "on it's own" I don't think that assumption is fine or fair, given it's very far from the truth. Note the comments above about Muric rushing out to play the passes at the back, you've said as much yourself. I'm not saying your point is wrong though, just that stats like these don't really add weight to an argument either way. Professionals do use statistics but not every stat is used and it's often about the platform clubs can utilise as opposed to the individual stats they can access. Clubs still use the "eyes" test for a reason.

I said, statistically he’s one of the top performing shot stoppers in the league. I think the two models I showed are fair and quite common in the football data community for keepers. This goes way against many posters ideology of him not being able to make a save, it’s the opposite end of the spectrum.

Yes eyes tests are always needed, problem is, if used alone, certain bias’ become apparent - you can see on this thread there are certain posters who have already decided on him, regardless of the outcome. That’s where data can come in handy, to make the discussion more objective.

[NewClaret]

How do you know they improved? Did you watch them regularly? Had you even heard of them?
There are lots of goalkeepers playing at a lower level than Muric who are better in relation to basic goalkeeping

What, how do I know they improved? Are you saying Pope & Heaton didn’t improve from when they were 23? In Popes case playing for York City in loan? Or in Heatons getting zero games on loan to QPR and then off to Rochdale & Wycombe, where he played a dozen games at each?

No, they’ve definitely didn't improve.

[Nori1958]

What, how do I know they improved? Are you saying Pope & Heaton didn’t improve from when they were 23? In Popes case playing for York City in loan? Or in Heatons getting zero games on loan to QPR and then off to Rochdale & Wycombe, where he played a dozen games at each?

No, they’ve definitely didn't improve.

Difficult to say when I didn't see either play when they were 23, but I'll take a guess, both could catch a cross on a regular basis

[Rileybobs]

I said, statistically he’s one of the top performing shot stoppers in the league. I think the two models I showed are fair and quite common in the football data community for keepers. This goes way against many posters ideology of him not being able to make a save, it’s the opposite end of the spectrum.

Yes eyes tests are always needed, problem is, if used alone, certain bias’ become apparent - you can see on this thread there are certain posters who have already decided on him, regardless of the outcome. That’s where data can come in handy, to make the discussion more objective.

Statistically he is the 12th best shot stopper in the division, based on save percentage.

I don’t think anyone has an ‘ideology’ that he can’t make a save. He’s a goalkeeper, of course he can and will make saves. Put me in between the sticks and I’d make saves.

My claim is that he concedes in a relatively high number of goals that he should save. If you are suggesting that I have already decided that about him then you’re correct. I will be more than happy to change my mind if he stops letting in these soft goals. By the same measure, you’ve decided he’s one of the best shot stoppers in the league based on a random statistic, and having made this decision you are unwilling to accept that he should have done better for the goal yesterday and claim that it was a good strike despite the visual evidence suggesting quite the opposite. So who has the ideology?

[Nori1958]

How often have you watched him?

And you said lots, who are the others??

The only thing iam talking about is basic goalkeeping.
I saw the Plymouth lad a couple of times when we were linked, very good at catching crosses

Watched Wycombe the other week, and again the goalkeeper had the basics covered.

Anybody watching our last two games would see Muric has a ricket in him, well at least 4 in those games.

[RVclaret]

Statistically he is the 12th best shot stopper in the division, based on save percentage.

I don’t think anyone has an ‘ideology’ that he can’t make a save. He’s a goalkeeper, of course he can and will make saves. Put me in between the sticks and I’d make saves.

My claim is that he concedes in a relatively high number of goals that he should save. If you are suggesting that I have already decided that about him then you’re correct. I will be more than happy to change my mind if he stops letting in these soft goals. By the same measure, you’ve decided he’s one of the best shot stoppers in the league based on a random statistic, and having made this decision you are unwilling to accept that he should have done better for the goal yesterday and claim that it was a good strike. So who has the ideology?

Save percentage is a really poor stat to use as it does not take into account shot quality. This stat would not be seen in a recruitment analysts report on a keeper.

I’m always open minded, but from what I’ve seen he’s a decent enough shot stopper (for the level we are at, I’m not comparing to Pope), and that view is backed up by the data. While the data isn’t the be all and end all, it seems it’s my view that is in line with what it’s suggesting, that’s all.

[Rileybobs]

Save percentage is a really poor stat to use as it does not take into account shot quality. This stat would not be seen in a recruitment analysts report on a keeper.

I’m always open minded, but from what I’ve seen he’s a decent enough shot stopper (for the level we are at, I’m not comparing to Pope), and that view is backed up by the data. While the data isn’t the be all and end all, I’m glad my view is in line with what it’s suggesting, that’s all.

So there you go, both of our statistics are flawed. Thank you. Your data suggests he’s a good shot stopper, mine not so much. So we can also judge a player on what we actually see, and both of our statistics back up our respective arguments. The difference is, you don’t think he should have done better for the goal yesterday, and I fail to see how that opinion can be reached with the evidence to hand - so I don’t think you’re being in any way open-minded in this case.

And I presume recruitment analysts reports on goalkeepers include video footage and are prepared having watched said goalkeepers in the flesh.

[NewClaret]

Difficult to say when I didn't see either play when they were 23, but I'll take a guess, both could catch a cross on a regular basis

And where have I said that Muric doesn’t need to improve his handling?

What we can say for sure is that neither were or will be as good as Muric on the ball.

[RVclaret]

So there you go, both of our statistics are flawed. Thank you. Your data suggests he’s a good shot stopper, mine not so much. So we can also judge a player on what we actually see, and both of our statistics back up our respective arguments. The difference is, you don’t think he should have done better for the goal yesterday, and I fail to see how that opinion can be reached with the evidence to hand - so I don’t think you’re being in any way open-minded in this case.

And I presume recruitment analysts reports on goalkeepers include video footage and are prepared having watched said goalkeepers in the flesh.

I think one on one’s favour the attacker, the keeper makes a quick decision and this time, the attacker has cleverly outdone a back tracking Muric by slotting it in the near post. Due to the nature of Benson’s ‘assist’, the keepers positioning wasn’t ideal. Interestingly, the pundits on the ITV show all credited Watmore with a ‘very well taken goal’ - I haven’t seen one match report anywhere suggesting the keeper should do better.

Yes they do have plenty of video footage but rarely go and watch players in the flesh. I know this through a contact at Barnsley who is one.

[AshevilleNCClaret]

You can easily see that Muric was trained in the man city mold: good with the feet and distribution, good shot stopper, not so good in the air. At 6’6” he should command the box but doesn’t. I don’t think his center backs are helping out (hwb and beyer are good but dominate the air). If tarks was in the back line, Murics faults would not be exposed.

[SimonSays]

You can easily see that Muric was trained in the man city mold: good with the feet and distribution, good shot stopper, not so good in the air. At 6’6” he should command the box but doesn’t. I don’t think his center backs are helping out (hwb and beyer are good but dominate the air). If tarks was in the back line, Murics faults would not be exposed.

So by using your logic and flipping things, we wouldn't have seen Pope be so brilliant in collecting the crosses as tarks and Mee etc would have cleared any danger.

Flawed to say the least.

[CoolClaret]

So by using your logic and flipping things, we wouldn't have seen Pope be so brilliant in collecting the crosses as tarks and Mee etc would have cleared any danger.

Flawed to say the least.

It’s not that simple, you could argue that Pope had less pressure knowing that if he doesn’t make it one of his defenders would - where as Muric doesn’t have that luxury - might draw him to coming for crosses that, in an ideal world, he should really be leaving for his defenders

[CoolClaret]

So there you go, both of our statistics are flawed. Thank you. Your data suggests he’s a good shot stopper, mine not so much. So we can also judge a player on what we actually see, and both of our statistics back up our respective arguments. The difference is, you don’t think he should have done better for the goal yesterday, and I fail to see how that opinion can be reached with the evidence to hand - so I don’t think you’re being in any way open-minded in this case.

And I presume recruitment analysts reports on goalkeepers include video footage and are prepared having watched said goalkeepers in the flesh.

No, that’s not how it works.

If you’re playing in a low block and the oppositions chances are limited to a smaller area of the goal to aim at and their quality of chances are lower then a higher % of the saves your goalkeeper will make will be ‘easier’

Of course Pope often made jaw dropping world class saves yes, but a lot of the time his job was made ‘easier’ by the way in which Dyche set his team up.

We have got to remember we are playing in a much more expansive system, we have a lot less defensive coverage so the sort of goalkeeping that we require is different and will also look different.

We’re top of the table and absolutely flying… Let’s just support the lads

[boatshed bill]

Goalie at Wycombe...... How long do you want to play this game?

You could have posted a list rather than stringing this out.

Max Stryjek (26 yrs old)?

[Rileybobs]

No, that’s not how it works.

If you’re playing in a low block and the oppositions chances are limited to a smaller area of the goal to aim at and their quality of chances are lower then a higher % of the saves your goalkeeper will make will be ‘easier’

Of course Pope often made jaw dropping world class saves yes, but a lot of the time his job was made ‘easier’ by the way in which Dyche set his team up.

We have got to remember we are playing in a much more expansive system, we have a lot less defensive coverage so the sort of goalkeeping that we require is different and will also look different.

We’re top of the table and absolutely flying… Let’s just support the lads

Of course, but I don’t see us giving the opposition a lot of easy chances. I suspect we limit our opposition to more longer range shots than the lesser teams in the league. There are so many variables and so many statistics that can be cherry picked to suit an argument. In this case I’m quite content with what I actually see.

And I do support the lads, all of them. I chant Muric’s name during the games, but I can still discuss his ability objectively on a fans forum.

[Nori1958]

And where have I said that Muric doesn’t need to improve his handling?

What we can say for sure is that neither were or will be as good as Muric on the ball.

Agreed, but both reached a standard of goalkeeping that Muric isn't even close to
If we are judging goalkeepers by how good they can pass a ball then the games gone.

[NewClaret]

Agreed, but both reached a standard of goalkeeping that Muric isn't even close to
If we are judging goalkeepers by how good they can pass a ball then the games gone.

Don’t agree with that at all, I’m afraid.

As per coolclarets post, Muric, and his ability with the ball at his feet is absolutely pivotal to our style. There’s a reason he didn’t have many crosses to worry about across 90 minutes yesterday, and that’s our ball retention, to which Muric and his abilities are critical. It’s the modern game.

What I think we agree on (although this whole conversation has been a bit weird, so I’m not sure) is that his commanding of the area he needs to improve and that there’s every chance he will, given players generally peak late 20’s - and goalkeepers much later.

[Nori1958]

Don’t agree with that at all, I’m afraid.

As per coolclarets post, Muric, and his ability with the ball at his feet is absolutely pivotal to our style. There’s a reason he didn’t have many crosses to worry about across 90 minutes yesterday, and that’s our ball retention, to which Muric and his abilities are critical. It’s the modern game.

What I think we agree on (although this whole conversation has been a bit weird, so I’m not sure) is that his commanding of the area he needs to improve and that there’s every chance he will, given players generally peak late 20’s - and goalkeepers much later.

He had two crosses to contend with yesterday, and cocked them both up... Thank goodness he doesn't have more to contend with.... Like Sheff utd

We cannot wait till he's 30 to peak, especially in the Premier league

[NewClaret]

He had two crosses to contend with yesterday, and cocked them both up... Thank goodness he doesn't have more to contend with.... Like Sheff utd

We cannot wait till he's 30 to peak, especially in the Premier league

Okay Nori

[Newcastleclaret93]

He had two crosses to contend with yesterday, and cocked them both up... Thank goodness he doesn't have more to contend with.... Like Sheff utd

We cannot wait till he's 30 to peak, especially in the Premier league

Muric is a strange one, he’s truly is excellent with his feet. (Personally I think he’s better with his feet than the likes of Pickford).

However I do agree, I often find his positioning poor and he struggles to command his box at set pieces. It will be interesting to see what Kompany thinks in the summer, if he goes ahead with him for the Prem or tries to upgrade.

[clarethomer]

Top of the league.

Most exciting football we are seeing in a while.

Team is giving us everything out there.

And yet we still have people who seem to want to win an argument on the internet as if it will change anything.

Aro, you are doing a great job - the team is doing a great job. Keep doing what you're doing please. UTC.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

He had two crosses to contend with yesterday, and cocked them both up... Thank goodness he doesn't have more to contend with.... Like Sheff utd

We cannot wait till he's 30 to peak, especially in the Premier league

Boro had 6 crosses according to the match stats, Muric only attempted to deal with two of them.

Sheff Utd had 24 crosses into our box recently and Muric didn't deal with any of them.

[taio]

As is always the case on here, there's a big space between those who think he's brilliant and those who think he's rubbish. Truth is he's not either based on what we've to date - he's somewhere in between. But it doesn't really matter right now.

[taio]

Boro had 6 crosses according to the match stats, Muric only attempted to deal with two of them.

Sheff Utd had 24 crosses into our box recently and Muric didn't deal with any of them.

You are looking at stats too much. I went to Sheff United and it was a clear weakness whatever you glean from the numbers. You've got a strange view of crosses into the box and when the keeper becomes responsible, hence your meaningless data earlier.

[ClaretPete001]

Don’t agree with that at all, I’m afraid.

As per coolclarets post, Muric, and his ability with the ball at his feet is absolutely pivotal to our style. There’s a reason he didn’t have many crosses to worry about across 90 minutes yesterday, and that’s our ball retention, to which Muric and his abilities are critical. It’s the modern game.

What I think we agree on (although this whole conversation has been a bit weird, so I’m not sure) is that his commanding of the area he needs to improve and that there’s every chance he will, given players generally peak late 20’s - and goalkeepers much later.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out when we play United and likely have much less possession and much more pressure on the back four...!

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You are looking at stats too much. I went to Sheff United and it was a clear weakness whatever you glean from the numbers. You've got a strange view of crosses into the box and when the keeper becomes responsible, hence your meaningless data earlier.

I just gave some stats, it's only meaningless to you because it's not aligning with the proclaimed view that he's utterly useless and won't be any good in the PL or even still with us in 18mths as one person thinks.

I'm not going to continue going round in circles with some of you about this, I really cba now.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I just gave some stats, it's only meaningless to you because it's not aligning with the proclaimed view that he's utterly useless and won't be any good in the PL or even still with us in 18mths as one person thinks.

I'm not going to continue going round in circles with some of you about this, I really cba now.

Tbf DJ your stats were completely pointless without context.

Muric is doing a decent job in this league. I think people are making some fair discussion points about Muric he has shown some clear weaknesses. It’s up to Kompany to decide whether them weaknesses can be covered in the prem.

[taio]

I just gave some stats, it's only meaningless to you because it's not aligning with the proclaimed view that he's utterly useless and won't be any good in the PL or even still with us in 18mths as one person thinks.

I'm not going to continue going round in circles with some of you about this, I really cba now.

Before you go, please can you highlight where I've said anything remotely like you've suggested

[ClaretPete001]

Yes I'm lost with those stats - Sheffield United battered us 5-2 with most agreeing they bullied us in the second half. I don't see how Muric not dealing with any of the crosses makes a point other than he didn't deal with any of the crosses.

I think anyone who attended the game yesterday would have to be concerned about his ability to dominate his box.

It's not a matter of opinion he has a real problem that is being masked because he plays for a team that dominates possession.

No one can doubt that his ability on the ball is a serious asset but you can't pretend there isn't an issue.

[IanMcL]

As a goalkeeper, Muric is a good sweeper.

Just as a goalkeeper....must be one of the very worst.
Very poor decision making. Not great at crosses. OK at shot stopping but not one on ones at all.

I prefer a good keeper.

[Lowbankclaret]

You can easily see that Muric was trained in the man city mold: good with the feet and distribution, good shot stopper, not so good in the air. At 6’6” he should command the box but doesn’t. I don’t think his center backs are helping out (hwb and beyer are good but dominate the air). If tarks was in the back line, Murics faults would not be exposed.

In no way is he a good shot stopper. Most good shot stoppers , make good saves, which in the main he doesn’t.

[Lowbankclaret]

As is always the case on here, there's a big space between those who think he's brilliant and those who think he's rubbish. Truth is he's not either based on what we've to date - he's somewhere in between. But it doesn't really matter right now.

But it will when we go up.

[boatshed bill]

Only 5 teams have let in fewer goals, and we have a very attacking set-up.
Nothing to worry about here.

[bfcjg]

I thought at QPR he dominated his box, yesterday he didn't, the penalty came as a result of Jim cooking up on a simple cross. If we go up he will be replaced IMHO.

[taio]

But it will when we go up.

I'd rather wait until that actually happens first.

[RVclaret]

This thread has been good for me personally to seperate those posters with a good clue of football and those without. Bodes well for the future.

[IanMcL]

With any luck we might sign that 1dt choice keeper we wanted, before Muric was all that was left.

[oldius]

Good evening. I write as a City fan and to congratulate you on the first half of the season. To be where you are, regardless of the style of play, is a great achievement and I wish you well for the rest of the season. To be there with the superb football you are playing is really something. Some City fans are critical of Ederson - they say he is less able at the more traditional aspects of goalkeeping and it may, or may not, be true. What is definitely true is that he brings skills to the table that are essential in delivering the style of play that Pep wants at the club. I don't know if Muric will reach the same level, but if he is helping your team as a whole, then it might be that those things that he is less good at may have to be ignored, to an extent: finding someone who has both sets of skills, at a high level, is nigh on impossible.

[Nori1958]

This thread has been good for me personally to seperate those posters with a good clue of football and those without. Bodes well for the future.

And those that see things with their own eyes, and don't rely on stats to form an opinion

[Nori1958]

With any luck we might sign that 1dt choice keeper we wanted, before Muric was all that was left.

I must admit I haven't kept track on him after he didn't sign, be interesting how he's got on..... On my list of things to do tomorrow

[NewClaret]

It will be interesting to see how it pans out when we play United and likely have much less possession and much more pressure on the back four...!

I think we’ll get a heavy beating vs United to be honest Pete, but I say that be because the back five are not strong enough to compete at the very top level vs. Muric in isolation.

These are young lads in their very early 20’s coming up against some of the worlds best (depending on who features). They all deserve our fullest support.

[Big Vinny K]

You can easily see that Muric was trained in the man city mold: good with the feet and distribution, good shot stopper, not so good in the air. At 6’6” he should command the box but doesn’t. I don’t think his center backs are helping out (hwb and beyer are good but dominate the air). If tarks was in the back line, Murics faults would not be exposed.

If Muric and the Boro keeper are anything to go by I think City may need a new goal keeping coach !
If Tarks was in the back line his faults would be exposed.
Tarks and Mee were very good centre backs indeed but it was Nick Pope’s domination of his area and ability to catch as large a percentage of crosses as anyone in the premier league that was vital to our success under Dyche.
If Tarks or Mee wins a header then more than a good chance the opposition get back possession. Pope catches it relieves the immediate pressure and gets us in the other half.
If the keeper drops the ball as Muric often does then like yesterday it can give the opposition one of the very few chances they get in the game.
In the championship there’s many teams who play like Burnley did in the Premier League. They rely on set pieces, try and win second balls, and have tall strong players trying to force mistakes.

Plus side of this league is that you don’t get punished for your mistakes anywhere near the rate you do in the Premier League. And because we are doing so well scoring goals this will also mask some of these mistakes in this league.

But general point here is that the gulf in quality between championship and premier league seems to be widening every season to me. And I think you see this in the keepers in this league too as the Boro keeper showed yesterday. Muric is better than a number of keepers in this league and of course his confidence with the ball at his feet is fundamental to how we are playing