January transfer window rumours.

[Claret1900]

The loanees are relatively untried at top level.

At least Beyer has played many Bundesliga matches as center back beating the likes of Bayern Munich and RB Leipzig. Does that count?

[Guller Bull]

At least Beyer has played many Bundesliga matches as center back beating the likes of Bayern Munich and RB Leipzig. Does that count?

That counts

[NewClaret]

Expiry for loan players contracts are THB & Maatsen 2024, Tella 2025, Beyer 2026. Imagine that will play a part in their affordability.

[Quickenthetempo]

Also you have to consider whether they actually want to stay

I think Tella is the only one who would 100% say he wants to stay, but the other three could all make decisions that they could get better deals at better clubs in the summer (especially if they continue at their current progress levels)

I think you would be surprised at how much the players love all the attention/praise/support here.

Not the case at most clubs.

[claptrappers_union]

How do you know what players are thinking?

[Guller Bull]

How do you know what players are thinking?

Because he is Jack!!!!

[Lancasterclaret]

I think you would be surprised at how much the players love all the attention/praise/support here.

Not the case at most clubs.

I take all that stuff with a pinch of salt

Player enjoying all the attention at club that is successful shock

Thing is, their agents will be completely immune to all of that

[Quickenthetempo]

I take all that stuff with a pinch of salt

Player enjoying all the attention at club that is successful shock

Thing is, their agents will be completely immune to all of that

Most would.

Maatsen's agent lives with him and been best mates for ages. Drives him into training everyday and spends a lot of time with him.
Sound guy apparently, doesn't sound your typical agent.

[MancunianClaret]

I’d like to see us do a decent and fair deal with City, whereby they get a higher fee if he keeps us up, a sell on and first refusal on any sale.

IS this the type of deal we secured Muric under?

[Lancasterclaret]

Most would.

Maatsen's agent lives with him and been best mates for ages. Drives him into training everyday and spends a lot of time with him.
Sound guy apparently, doesn't sound your typical agent.

I think the financial package on offer and the long term prospects are more important to a player, but no doubt what you say will help if we can sort out the most important parts

[northeastclaret]

Very wise as usual for VK to start to try and make progress regarding loan players.

We are in a bit of catch 22, because the better the players perform under VK the higher their price.

But non of the players are irreplaceable, I would suggest we would be similarly successful under VK s brilliance if he had had to loan other similar players, particularly in respect of Beyer who was far from first choice.

To the extent that he maybe inclined to sign one or two permanent replacements for the loan players if it’s looking like we would be priced out of any permanent signing.

[Quickenthetempo]

I think the financial package on offer and the long term prospects are more important to a player, but no doubt what you say will help if we can sort out the most important parts

Oh it's certainly important, but if another similar club offered slightly more money then I think they choose us.

We are probably the best option for a years premier league football at the minute, for all of them.

[Quicknick]

I wonder if we're still interested in the African centre half who plays in France.

[Duffer_]

Nathan Jones on recalling Tella per Lancs Live. Odd turn of phrase but nothing particularly enlightening either way.

And Jones, speaking ahead of his side's crunch clash with Nottingham Forest in the Premier League on Tuesday night, wouldn't rule out Tella coming back to the south coast.

“Every possibility is open to us," he said, speaking to the Athletic. "What we have to do is make sure that the squad we go into January with is weaker than the one we come out of with - that's the main thing.”

[claretspice]

Realistically, even allowing for some of the more creative mechanisms suggested to bring the price down (buyback clauses and the like), we're looking at easily £20m to sign all of Tella, THB, Bayer and Maatsen. That's a huge outlay just to stand still - and it's clearly not all the business we'd need to do in order to be competitive next season, given we'd need upgrades up front and in midfield too as a minimum. I'm just not sure we have that sort of money available. If we can sign one or two permanently, we'll have done well, and we if we can keep another one on loan that might be as good as we can hope for.

Maatsen is the one that may be particularly worth trying to push the boat out to keep and might be most plausible. His mix of athleticism and passing range is pretty rare, and whilst he's still not a first class defender, particularly in the air, I think he's improved markedly in that regard since the season started. Of all our loan players, he strikes me as the most difficult to replace.

It'd probably be better for us if THB signed another contract at City and opened up the prospect of us signing him for another season on loan. If we could bring in Beyer permanently (that seems to be the easiest deal to do on paper, given what can be inferred from the press), that'd give us a plausible centre half pairing next season, although I'm not quite as sold on Beyer as some are - certainly not at Premier League level, and there might well be a case for looking for a more physical presence to partner THB or Beyer if we get promoted anyway.

As for Tella, as much as I'd like to sign him, I'm not sure it will be possible at a viable price. If Southamption go down, they'd be nuts not to want him for their bid to bounce straight back, and if they stay up they'll presumably want to make our lives as difficult as possible as we're a direct rival. Oddly, if we're going to sign him, now might be the time because Nathan Jones will want to free up as much cash as possible to try and overhaul his squad - but he's also the loan player who might be easiest to replace on promotion or if he's recalled. He's a top player but there's a few around in that pacey inside right/roving forward mould.

I've said before that I guess we'll end up with more loans next season - potentially from abroad given that it appears they don't count towards our 2 loan cap in the Premier League. Whether they are to replace the 4 current loanees, or the way we supplement the squad further having pushed the boat out for that current 4, remains to be seen - but either way it's a tricky balance. How we begin to deal with it this month will be interesting.

[NewClaret]

I know they said this was a “spice” celebration or something, but it’s hard not to speculate that it’s a different message they’re sending.

VK said something like “a deal is a deal” ref Tella and it wouldn’t shock me if we have buy clauses we could activate or Nathan Jones possibly wants to cash in to buy his own players.

[Big Vinny K]

You would think that if deals can be done that are realistic for the loanees that are established then it would be sense to push for them given their performances and future values as (probable) regular premier league performers.

THB - circa £5 mill
Maatsen - circa £5 mill
Tella - circa £4 mill
Bayer - circa £3 mill

All guesswork and I am sure that a few of you will think I am way off with those figures

Beyer price probably the closest to being accurate. Nearer to £5m though I reckon.

THB - do not think at this stage he is even for sale. Pep will want to see how he fairs in PL and hopefully that will be another years loan with us. If he does well that either means he becomes one of City’s future centre back options (he has 4 or 5 who can play in that position at any one time and his main 3 have had too many injuries in the last couple of years)….or Pep will decide that he isn’t up to his very high £50m plus standards for his defenders and cash in on him for a fee likely to be in excess of £20m.

Tella - got to be £10m plus

Maatsen - difficult one. He’s nowhere near the Chelsea team but if we want him for the Premier League I cannot see why they would ask for any less than £10m.

[NewClaret]

IS this the type of deal we secured Muric under?

No idea, but I hope so.

There’s definitely something that could be mutually beneficial for us, City and the players if we could find a way of using loans to help develop their players but also in return take the ones they don’t need/can’t offer game time to on fair deals that allow them to return once they’ve got experience.

City have other partner clubs to help do this of course but clearly can’t have one in the PL (formally), which is where the experience is most needed.

[clarethomer]

I think with THB and Maatsen with their clubs being respective top 4/6 clubs they will probably be weighing up their options as players in terms of realities of either going on loan again somewhere else or back to their parent club and competing with far more experienced players.

For me, I suspect that they are probably getting the taste of first team football and to go away from that, or to be loaned back out to another lower league club probably would be difficult.

I hope we can do something to guarantee their stay with us for the next year or so.

Beyer - it sounds like we can do a deal there. I think money will talk here more than anything here. It sounds like that whilst we haven't been able to agree a fee before the loan commenced - all parties were in agreement that if the PL came, that is where the player was happy to be.

Tella - this is the more difficult one for me. I don't think we will get him on the cheap and I can see that they like him as a player and he was breaking into their 1st team so clearly he's not been far off. Change in manager and league position are likely to be a big influence here for me. That and whether they will be open to selling but only for a decent fee.

[AGENT_CLARET]

I know they said this was a “spice” celebration or something, but it’s hard not to speculate that it’s a different message they’re sending.

VK said something like “a deal is a deal” ref Tella and it wouldn’t shock me if we have buy clauses we could activate or Nathan Jones possibly wants to cash in to buy his own players.

It's a sprinkle of stardust celebration

[Big Vinny K]

We have a buy option on Beyer and the fee is already agreed.
Assuming the player is happy at Burnley and we are happy with him then this looks the most likely to happen.
If it does not happen in the next window that will possibly mean it’s because it doesn’t have to. Beyer might prefer to wait till promotion is confirmed which would seem reasonable.

I do also think that the other 3 would love to stay at Burnley whether it be on a permanent basis or further loans. Obvious thing to say but all of them are enjoying the most successful periods of their careers to date by some distance under a manager they know they can develop under. They will all be getting paid well for this so why put all this at risk by moving to a club where you could be struggling or on the bench or where the manager keeps getting sacked ? It’s not often that players find themselves in a situation like they are currently at Burnley and hopefully they all realise that future riches and success can wait until they finish enjoying this ride !

[Nori1958]

We have a buy option on Beyer and the fee is already agreed.
Assuming the player is happy at Burnley and we are happy with him then this looks the most likely to happen.
If it does not happen in the next window that will possibly mean it’s because it doesn’t have to. Beyer might prefer to wait till promotion is confirmed which would seem reasonable.

I do also think that the other 3 would love to stay at Burnley whether it be on a permanent basis or further loans. Obvious thing to say but all of them are enjoying the most successful periods of their careers to date by some distance under a manager they know they can develop under. They will all be getting paid well for this so why put all this at risk by moving to a club where you could be struggling or on the bench or where the manager keeps getting sacked ? It’s not often that players find themselves in a situation like they are currently at Burnley and hopefully they all realise that future riches and success can wait until they finish enjoying this ride !

No agreement for Beyer... Already discussed on here several times, German press and his manager confirm

[Stayingup]

We don't want to end up like Notts Forest. They had loan players in Championship - their better players who left at the end of the season. They then spent @150 million on new pkayers and so far it hasn't worked. In fact I understand they are trying to offload some and bring in other new players. If we go up it would be good to keep the nucleus of this team together. As mentioned by Spice and others though we will need upgrades in midfield and up front.

[Big Vinny K]

No agreement for Beyer... Already discussed on here several times, German press and his manager confirm

We’ll see.
No reason to doubt the person who confirmed it to me and he’s a better source than the German press or his manager.

[Nori1958]

We’ll see.
No reason to doubt the person who confirmed it to me and he’s a better source than the German press or his manager.

[Claret1900]

No agreement for Beyer... Already discussed on here several times, German press and his manager confirm

I highly doubt that any manager would confirm anything at this stage.

[Big Vinny K]

As said it’s up to you whether you believe it or post stupid emojis
I’ve never posted anything like this before as in “from a reliable source” but on this one it is as reliable as you could possibly get in terms of someone at Burnley football club.
Now he could have made it up but in the context of the whole conversation that would be strange.

[Nori1958]

I highly doubt that any manager would confirm anything at this stage.

Every manger seems to be commenting on their loaned out players at the moment

Perhaps his comments were just made up

[jedi_master]

IF we are promoted, one wonders what Vinny's summer budget will be.

We cannot forget that our fantastic summer in 2022 was built upon huge player sales, with our parachute money (as I understand it) being used to pay off the portion of the MSD loan that was required. We won't have that the player sales to fall back on this summer, but we will obviously have the TV money, with far less of that having to be used on our wage bill (unlike the last time we were in the PL). Wasn't there talk recently (I forget the details) that ALK were restructuring the loan from MSD to another party and extending that loan amount? I would far rather we pay our way than go down this route, but it's something that will undoubtedly factor in to what Kompany would get.

If we are promoted and, hypothetically, manage to sign up Maatsen, Tella and Beyer for a combined fee in the region of £30m (with THB back on loan also) you can't help but wonder what else is left over for Vinny. If we get Weghorst back in the building and re-integrated, that might partially solve the striker problem but we would still need another (quicker) option in my opinion. You're talking big money there, probably £15m+. We definitely need another option in central midfield, more of a long term Corky replacement. I wonder if we would try for Sambi Lokonga from Arsenal in that event (rumoured to have wanted him in the summer, Kompany key to his rise at Anderlecht etc)? We're already sounding like we might need to spend more than we ever have in one window here, probably £60m region...

All very interesting stuff - but anyway, digressing from January to a potential summer window here I suppose, one that requires us to be promoted first!

[claretspice]

IF we are promoted, one wonders what Vinny's summer budget will be.

We cannot forget that our fantastic summer in 2022 was built upon huge player sales, with our parachute money (as I understand it) being used to pay off the portion of the MSD loan that was required. We won't have that the player sales to fall back on this summer, but we will obviously have the TV money, with far less of that having to be used on our wage bill (unlike the last time we were in the PL). Wasn't there talk recently (I forget the details) that ALK were restructuring the loan from MSD to another party and extending that loan amount? I would far rather we pay our way than go down this route, but it's something that will undoubtedly factor in to what Kompany would get.

If we are promoted and, hypothetically, manage to sign up Maatsen, Tella and Beyer for a combined fee in the region of £30m (with THB back on loan also) you can't help but wonder what else is left over for Vinny. If we get Weghorst back in the building and re-integrated, that might partially solve the striker problem but we would still need another (quicker) option in my opinion. You're talking big money there, probably £15m+. We definitely need another option in central midfield, more of a long term Corky replacement. I wonder if we would try for Sambi Lokonga from Arsenal in that event (rumoured to have wanted him in the summer, Kompany key to his rise at Anderlecht etc)? We're already sounding like we might need to spend more than we ever have in one window here, probably £60m region...

All very interesting stuff - but anyway, digressing from January to a potential summer window here I suppose, one that requires us to be promoted first!

This, in short, is why I expect us to once again place emphasis on the loan market. I know only 2 domestic loans are available, but I'd imagine we'd be looking at whether there are loans available from bigger clubs across Europe who could top up the squad.

[Lancasterclaret]

Worth mentioning again that we'd be in exactly the same position as Nottingham Forest, but without their resources to fund the premier league team

It would be tough

[NewClaret]

All very interesting stuff - but anyway, digressing from January to a potential summer window here I suppose, one that requires us to be promoted first!

Interesting question jedi.

Not sure how accurate this is, but this site has our total salary bill at £25m:

https://salarysport.com/football/sky-be ... urnley-f.c./

By summer I think you can assume £6m saved from Lowton, Barnes, Westwood and JBG, but add in £2.5m for Weghorst. So about £21.5m. If you assume the loan players would want a rise to sign, plus some promotion related increases for others, I could see the wage bill being c£30m against a potential £130m income - so a big surplus.

I wouldn’t be against some of that paying down debt and investment in the ground/training facilities as I think they’re also important.

[northeastclaret]

One loan fact I think for next season is that you can only have two in total from the Premier League ?

[NewClaret]

Worth mentioning again that we'd be in exactly the same position as Nottingham Forest, but without their resources to fund the premier league team

It would be tough

Worth remembering with Forest that they went up via the play offs having made a late run.

We have a potentially more talented core squad to begin with (let’s see how the season pans out). Hopefully we wouldn’t need to do quite so much restructuring.

I also think Forest spent quite badly - quite scatter gun - but agree it’ll be very tough. There’s a big gap between the leagues.

[claretspice]

One loan fact I think for next season is that you can only have two in total from the Premier League ?

Two premier league loans, but think we established that didn't apply to overseas loans so there's freer rein there.

On the wage bill point, wouldn't be a surprise if some of the permanent signings from the summer don't have provision for their wages to increase on promotion.

Lancaster is right, the high-wire act to make us competitive in the summer would be very much like Forest's. They opted to pay out for permanent recruitment. I'm not sure we'll have that option, at least not for all our needs.

[Swizzlestick]

Forest’s recruitment was very chaotic and you wonder how much involvement Cooper had in all the deals - they have a sporting director, a DoF and an erratic owner. While we will have work to do, I think it’ll be a more pragmatic approach with, I agree, use of the loan market.

[Claret Toni]

I've no inside knowledge but it appears to me that Chelsea have spent £100m in left fullbacks / wingbacks in the last 2 or 3 years - Chillwell and Cucurella. Not sure how much game time Maatsen would get if he returned to Chelsea; no doubt he's fully aware of that.

[Lancasterclaret]

I've no inside knowledge but it appears to me that Chelsea have spent £100m in left fullbacks / wingbacks in the last 2 or 3 years - Chillwell and Cucurella. Not sure how much game time Maatsen would get if he returned to Chelsea; no doubt he's fully aware of that.

Yes, but it does assume that he's only to going to have the choice of staying with us or staying at Chelsea

The worry is (and its true for all our loanees) is that they do well enough to attract interest from better funded clubs than us, both in the premier league and on the continent

[CrosspoolClarets]

Not a rumour just an observation, I don’t buy into these worries about us not being able to compete financially, we did it before, very successfully, now we have a manager who is a big draw and a desire to use the better value overseas market. I have no doubt we will strengthen well.

Wouldn’t surprise me to see north of £50m spent on promotion - not in the Maranakis league but when we contrast to what some others sides up there are spending, it would be good. Guaranteed income of £200m+ in 23/24-26/27 would help make the financial case for that investment, in that these would be young assets with resale values and immediate TV cash flow to help the club afford it while they play for us.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Forest’s recruitment was very chaotic and you wonder how much involvement Cooper had in all the deals - they have a sporting director, a DoF and an erratic owner. While we will have work to do, I think it’ll be a more pragmatic approach with, I agree, use of the loan market.

Forest are apparently hoping to spend again this January, so that's going to be interesting

[claretonthecoast1882]

You can tell the window is now open.

The fears people had last summer are emerging already for next season.

[claretblue]

Southampton manager Nathan Jones - comments re Tella before tonights match v Nottingham Forest:

https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/t ... n-25882569

[Cirrus_Minor]

Maatsen may be a fair shout since if he wants to stay at Chelsea he would have to get past Azpilucueta, Chilwell, Cucurella and probably Hall.

[NewClaret]

Yes, but it does assume that he's only to going to have the choice of staying with us or staying at Chelsea

The worry is (and its true for all our loanees) is that they do well enough to attract interest from better funded clubs than us, both in the premier league and on the continent

Potentially Lancaster, but I do think the likelihood of playing time, the spirit of the squad, the system, the manager, etc play a significant part. The other things that make you feel happy and settled.

And in all honesty if a young player was only interested in money as part of any decision, I think we might be best off without them.

[Claret Toni]

Yes, but it does assume that he's only to going to have the choice of staying with us or staying at Chelsea

The worry is (and its true for all our loanees) is that they do well enough to attract interest from better funded clubs than us, both in the premier league and on the continent

My point really was that to progress his carear in the short term, it would seem to be away from Chelsea, and from that viewpoint a realistic opportunity for us

[AshevilleNCClaret]

Just my two cents…
THB is destined for a top 6 squad, and could possibly break into man city’s squad in a couple of years. Our best bet is another year of him on loan.
I think we eventually sign beyer.
Maatsen is tricky because he doesn’t have a future at Chelsea but could get massive money from another club.
Not sure where Tella fits in Southampton’s plans. They might recall him just to have another body on the bench. Their manager is sounding a little desperate and they probably need some big signings to stay up.

[IanMcL]

Beyer - yes
THB - yes if available either loan or buy with sell on % to City.
Maatson - possible but not sure if good enough defender, for the Prem, as yet. Taylor is a proven defender with overlap legs.
Tella - not convinced he is robust enough to make an impact in the prem.

[Vegas Claret]

Yes, but it does assume that he's only to going to have the choice of staying with us or staying at Chelsea

The worry is (and its true for all our loanees) is that they do well enough to attract interest from better funded clubs than us, both in the premier league and on the continent

he's currently learning Spanish (said so himself). The flipside of all this conversation is Kompany knows the PL better than anyone, he might have already decided that a few of the loanees wouldn't cut it in the PL and he might not want them. If you look at how well he has done bringing in players at this level I would think he is more than capable of bringing in better 'bargains' into a top flight team.

[jojomk1]

Beyer - yes
THB - yes if available either loan or buy with sell on % to City.
Maatson - possible but not sure if good enough defender, for the Prem, as yet. Taylor is a proven defender with overlap legs.
Tella - not convinced he is robust enough to make an impact in the prem.

Fair summary in my eyes
TBH still prone to losing position and miss placed passes from the back
Maatson is better going forward and would like to see him and Taylor in tandem
Tella looks very lightweight, Swansea game being a good example

[AfloatinClaret]

No agreement for Beyer... Already discussed on here several times, German press and his manager confirm

The German (indeed any) press only ever print facts/the truth. Football club managers always tell the truth and the absolute clincher... it's been 'discussed on here'. If that's considered conclusive evidence, I really hope that you never sit on any jury that I come before.

I've seen both positions posited but accept that I don't know one way or the other and I strongly suspect that you don't either.