Nottingham

[Rowls]

Huge "I was only following orders" defence vibes here Rowls

????

What?

Very little of what you type in response to me seems to bare any relation to what I've typed.

I've simply expressed scepticism that locking people up in perpetuity, with no chance of release (the "I'm against the death penalty but life means lifes" position) is somehow more humane than dispatching people quickly and professionally. I don't think it is, to be honest.

I'm going to say this overtly now, Lancaster: It does appear that when my opinion doesn't conform to what you think it "should" be, then any engagement with me quickly resorts to calling me names or making stupid accusations like "that's what a Nazi would have said", as shown by your above reply.

Ironically, while you're casually induldging in throwing around baseless inference that I'm somehow a "Nazi", many of the Nazis and axis forces we (the British) found guilty of war crimes were punished with the death penalty meted out humanely and professionally by our qualified hangmen. Our method of dispatch was far more humane than the American or Soviet strangulation hanging method.

When properly hanged with the British method, death is almost instantaneous.

[Rowls]

I think we all know the race of the alleged killer and his religious beliefs

I don't.

[CoolClaret]

I'm not sure there's a large appetite to return to those days but I take issue with the idea that it is more "civilised" to lock people up in perpetuity than it is to dispatch them quickly and humanely.

It's certainly a better deterrent for life imprisonment isn't it? - Which is normally the argument from those advocating for capital punishment, despite overwhelming evidence against that viewpoint...

Executing convicted terrorists for example would be a disaster - literally creating a martyr.

Not to mention that just incase there is eventually evidence found against a wrongful conviction, at least you can then free the indivial that has been imprisoned - can't really do that after the death penalty.

I know America is a different kettle of fish but the amount of wrongful convictions they get - often on death row is rather concerning... I'm a massive supporter of the innocence project that fight wrongful convictions: https://innocenceproject.org/

Not to mention we have objective data on the impact of countries with a rehabilitation based prison system vs one with capital punishment and there's literally no comparison

[Rowls]

It's certainly a better deterrent for life imprisonment isn't it? - Which is normally the argument from those advocating for capital punishment, despite overwhelming evidence against that viewpoint...

Executing convicted terrorists for example would be a disaster - literally creating a martyr.

Not to mention that just incase there is eventually evidence found against a wrongful conviction, at least you can then free the indivial that has been imprisoned - can't really do that after the death penalty.

I know America is a different kettle of fish but the amount of wrongful convictions they get - often on death row is rather concerning... I'm a massive supporter of the innocence project that fight wrongful convictions: https://innocenceproject.org/

Not to mention we have objective data on the impact of countries with a rehabilitation based prison system vs one with capital punishment and there's literally no comparison

Many good points, CoolClaret.

As I've alluded to, I don't have strong opinions on the death penalty, except the idea that it is uncivilised or somehow more humane than perpetual imprisonment. There are pros and cons on both sides of the debate.

[RicardoMontalban]

Framing the execution of someone as the ‘humane’ approach, as opposed to incarceration, does have more than a whiff of the benevolent farmer/vet mindset. Which says all you need to know about someone’s own attitude to human life.

The death penalty is about retribution, nothing else.

[PlasticClaret]

Many good points, CoolClaret.

As I've alluded to, I don't have strong opinions on the death penalty, except the idea that it is uncivilised or somehow more humane than perpetual imprisonment. There are pros and cons on both sides of the debate.

Prison can be humane. Norwegian prisons are very humane and they have better recidivism rates than us. By a long way.
We won't adapt their philosophy to our system though because we're much more about vengeance and retribution than they are.

[ecc]

I think the chances of bereaved relatives reading this thread are very, very slim. Obviously, our sympathies lie with the poor victims and the bereaved but this isn't an "RIP" thread, it's a thread about the incident as a whole.

I apologise to you, he who is never to be questioned. May I receive a lifetime-ban from UTC.

[Rowls]

Framing the execution of someone as the ‘humane’ approach, as opposed to incarceration, does have more than a whiff of the benevolent farmer/vet mindset. Which says all you need to know about someone’s own attitude to human life.

The death penalty is about retribution, nothing else.

Can't agree with your comparison of sick animals to the kinds of criminals we're talking about here. Euthenising animals is done out of kindness and a few other reasons. Animals cannot comprehend suffering in the manner we can. And unlike humans, animal life isn't sacred - no matter how much we love and care for them.

Supporters of the death penalty don't want to "put down" murderers, child rapists etc to put them out of their suffering. They would like to see them executed as punishment so as to remove them from society. They say that their crimes are so reprehinsible they can never be "rehabilitated" and that society should not allow that. This is done in spite of their lives being viewed as sacred, because they have committed unspeakably monstrous crimes.

The two situations are not comparable.

[Rowls]

I apologise to you, he who is never to be questioned. May I receive a lifetime-ban from UTC.

This is silly and flippant. I don't have a major problem with that but it comes only a few posts after you were claiming this thread should only be used to express our condolences to the poor victims.

[Lancasterclaret]

????

What?

Very little of what you type in response to me seems to bare any relation to what I've typed.

I've simply expressed scepticism that locking people up in perpetuity, with no chance of release (the "I'm against the death penalty but life means lifes" position) is somehow more humane than dispatching people quickly and professionally. I don't think it is, to be honest.

I'm going to say this overtly now, Lancaster: It does appear that when my opinion doesn't conform to what you think it "should" be, then any engagement with me quickly resorts to calling me names or making stupid accusations like "that's what a Nazi would have said", as shown by your above reply.

Ironically, while you're casually induldging in throwing around baseless inference that I'm somehow a "Nazi", many of the Nazis and axis forces we (the British) found guilty of war crimes were punished with the death penalty meted out humanely and professionally by our qualified hangmen. Our method of dispatch was far more humane than the American or Soviet strangulation hanging method.

When properly hanged with the British method, death is almost instantaneous.

I'd probably block me if you don't like me pointing out just how right wing some of the stuff you come out with is

[RicardoMontalban]

Can't agree with your comparison of sick animals to the kinds of criminals we're talking about here. This is done out of kindness and a few other reasons. Animals cannot comprehend suffering in the manner we can. And unlike humans, animal life isn't sacred - no matter how much we love and care for them.

Supporters of the death penalty don't want to "put down" murderers, child rapists etc to put them out of their suffering. They would like to see them executed as punishment so as to remove them from society. They say that their crimes are so reprehinsible they can never be "rehabilitated" and that society should not allow that. This is done in spite of their lives being viewed as sacred, because they have committed unspeakably monstrous crimes.

The two situations are not comparable.

I suspect full well you know I am not comparing the two, and you’ve not done much to dispel my view that the death penalty is about retribution.

[Rowls]

I'd probably block me if you don't like me pointing out just how right wing some of the stuff you come out with is

No, I'm happy to see opinions that are counter to my own.

One day, you might like to start expressing your own alternative opinions instead of comically invoking Godwin's law, in the manner of Ken Livingstone, simply because you disagree.

Give it a go.

[CoolClaret]

What I don't understand Rowls, is despite the evidence pointing to a rehab based system being by far the best prison system devised - in terms of less chance of repeat offenders as well as a less violent society overall, that you and others in favour of of Capital Punishment still advocate for that sort of system?

Your own beliefs and little anecdotes don't mean diddly squat when we have objective data

[Rowls]

I suspect full well you know I am not comparing the two, and you’ve not done much to dispel my view that the death penalty is about retribution.

You were comparing supporters to parochial vets which is what I took issue with. It seemed (to me at least) to imply that supporters of the death penalty took a faint kind of pleasure in exercising power over life and death. Maybe some do, but I don't see that as a key component of the debate on either side of the argument.

Many supporters of the death penalty agree that it IS partly about punishment. It's not something most of them are shy about.

It's partly about removing the most vile criminals from society too.

[fatboy47]

I try to entertain a lot of Rowls stuff, mainly because he's the only contributer on the right who tries to transcend the red-top /boris-fodder/forelock-tugging /war-worshipping/royal-grovelling level of his devotees on here, and actually tries to debate issues.

He nearly always disappoints in the end..but there's a decent bloke in there somewhere.

[Lancasterclaret]

No, I'm happy to see opinions that are counter to my own.

One day, you might like to start expressing your own alternative opinions instead of comically invoking Godwin's law, in the manner of Ken Livingstone, simply because you disagree.

Give it a go.

I have

On this thread

Its almost like you don't read what people reply to you actually post......oh

[Rowls]

What I don't understand Rowls, is despite the evidence pointing to a rehab based system being by far the best prison system devised - in terms of less chance of repeat offenders as well as a less violent society overall, that you and others in favour of of Capital Punishment still advocate for that sort of system?

Your own beliefs and little anecdotes don't mean diddly squat when we have objective data

I don't advocate for the death penalty.

I take issue with people who claim it is more human than perpetual imprisonment and I like to draw attention to very, very low recidivism rate of criminals sanctioned with death.

I flit between the two sides of the debate tbh but it's not a major issue for me. However, the final problem is that the British public have never been given a fair chance to express their opinion on the matter. I strongly believe there would be a majority in favour if ever there were a referendum on the matter.

[Lancasterclaret]

I don't advocate for the death penalty.

I take issue with people who claim it is more human than perpetual imprisonment and I like to draw attention to very, very low recidivism rate of criminals sanctioned with death.

I flit between the two sides of the debate tbh but it's not a major issue for me. However, the final problem is that the British public have never been given a fair chance to express their opinion on the matter. I strongly believe there would be a majority in favour if ever there were a referendum on the matter.

Yeah, referendums are a really good way of solving issues now you mention it

[Newcastleclaret93]

Theocratic, totalitarian shithole with one of the lowest indexes of human freedom, no infrastructure and an absolute horrific record on human rights.

Of course you’ve been and worked there and are defending it. Wouldn’t expect anything less

How am I defending it? I am merely saying what that individual is saying is not accurate.

It has literally the lowest crime rates because of how severe the punishments are.

In all seriousness though why are you so defensive? If you don’t break the law you have absolutely nothing to worry about

[Rowls]

I have

On this thread

Its almost like you don't read what people reply to you actually post......oh

instead of

OK, just stop invoking Godwin's law. Stop attributing false motivations to me and simply engage in good mannered debate. Stop insulting and throwing abuse around.

You're certainly bright enough to do that. Just have a bit more self discipline to follow it through.

****

I'm off now. Got a train to catch.

[PlasticClaret]

OK, just stop invoking Godwin's law.

Aren't you the invokee here?

[daveisaclaret]

It works very effectively as a deterrent in terms of repeat offending.

This is an Alan Partridge line from 1994.

[bfcjg]

You lose your human rights when you murder someone, no ifs no buts. These evil maniacs even if given a life sentence don't always serve a full life term and whilst in prison are a threat to prison staff and other prisoners.
Regarding deterrent, why do we send in armed police ? Why not plead and grovel to them with a megaphone, why not try to reason, ? We send in armed officers to kill them, these brave men and women have to make a
split second decision on behalf of us all, so don't tell me we don't have a death penalty. These evil monsters get full access to the judicial system, are deemed innocent until proven guilty andveven then the state b00dy well protects and looks after them.

[RicardoMontalban]

You were comparing supporters to parochial vets which is what I took issue with. It seemed (to me at least) to imply that supporters of the death penalty took a faint kind of pleasure in exercising power over life and death. Maybe some do, but I don't see that as a key component of the debate on either side of the argument.

Many supporters of the death penalty agree that it IS partly about punishment. It's not something most of them are shy about.

It's partly about removing the most vile criminals from society too.

My humblest apologies, that’s exactly the point I was making.

The hypocrisy of people preaching the sanctity of life yet enthusiastically promoting the death penalty with all the well established problems that may have. Only execute the ones we’re certain of. I’m sure in all those cases where people have been found to be innocent after they’ve been executed, the state were still pretty sure when the switch was flipped.

You say it’s about removing the worst of the worst from society, but don’t fancy the idea that perhaps there’s a chance life imprisonment may be that option.

[Boss Hogg]

Plenty of heinous criminals have correctly been sent to the gallows. Mistakes were made when DNA testing wasn’t available. Can and should be cheap with a proper executioner and it has been in the past but we didn’t have human rights lawyers being funded by the state then. Thank God we hung some of the Nazi War Criminals and Camp Commandants as an example. The ones that got them converted to life sentences then mostly had these removed and reduced significantly. They were never adequately punished for their crimes. You can murder someone in this country now and be out after 8 years with a new identity. We are far too soft and pander to the criminals needs and ‘rights’ and not the victims and the rest of the law abiding public.