Ground Capacity Increase.

[It Is What It Is]

Having spent most of the last decade in the Premier League and hopefully a lot more seasons to come, would it be prudent to increase the capacity at the ground?
At just under 22,000 current capacity, with all allocated season tickets sold, plus 8000 away tickets every game, capacity increase surely must be on the cards.
The BLS is the obvious choice.

[claretonthecoast1882]

8000 away tickets ?

[Dark Cloud]

Been debated ad infinitum on here time and again. Yes, some areas of the ground need seriously upgrading as they are horrendously dated and bordering embarrassing bearing in mind the company we're keeping these days, but as for turning that upgrade into a serious increase in capacity, I (and many others) regularly say not. A couple of thousand up to around 24,000, absolutely, but beyond that, definitely no. Other clubs have got giddy after believing their stay in the PL will turn them into the next Man U or Real Madrid with over 30 and 40 thousand plus flocking to the ground every week. It doesn't happen and you look extremely silly with thousands of empty seats and large areas of the ground cordoned off and unused when the bubble bursts. (I'm busy trying to think of a prime example of the above to exemplify my point......mmmm.)
And btw we allocate around 2500 for away fans. Nothing like the 8000 suggested.

[Spijed]

Surely the easiest and quickest way to increase capacity is replace the wooden seats in the CFS & Bob Lord stand with plastic ones.

[Pickles]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69515&hilit=Expansion

[Spijed]

Been debated ad infinitum on here time and again. Yes, some areas of the ground need seriously upgrading as they are horrendously dated and bordering embarrassing bearing in mind the company we're keeping these days, but as for turning that upgrade into a serious increase in capacity, I (and many others) regularly say not. A couple of thousand up to around 24,000, absolutely, but beyond that, definitely no. Other clubs have got giddy after believing their stay in the PL will turn them into the next Man U or Real Madrid with over 30 and 40 thousand plus flocking to the ground every week. It doesn't happen and you look extremely silly with thousands of empty seats and large areas of the ground cordoned off and unused when the bubble bursts. (I'm busy trying to think of a prime example of the above to exemplify my point......mmmm.)
And btw we allocate around 2500 for away fans. Nothing like the 8000 suggested.

Regarding our ground being embarrassing, don't away fans see it, like Everton's, as a "Proper" ground, that fans tend to appreciate more?

[dougcollins]

Been debated ad infinitum on here time and again. Yes, some areas of the ground need seriously upgrading as they are horrendously dated and bordering embarrassing bearing in mind the company we're keeping these days, but as for turning that upgrade into a serious increase in capacity, I (and many others) regularly say not. A couple of thousand up to around 24,000, absolutely, but beyond that, definitely no. Other clubs have got giddy after believing their stay in the PL will turn them into the next Man U or Real Madrid with over 30 and 40 thousand plus flocking to the ground every week. It doesn't happen and you look extremely silly with thousands of empty seats and large areas of the ground cordoned off and unused when the bubble bursts. (I'm busy trying to think of a prime example of the above to exemplify my point......mmmm.)
And btw we allocate around 2500 for away fans. Nothing like the 8000 suggested.

Bradford City.

[Herts Clarets]

You are not the guy behind the Clarets Turf twitter account from a few years back are you? I blocked all posts from that account as on an almost weekly basis tweeted we should add another tier to the BL stand, despite the fact we rarely sold out home games.

[wilks_bfc]

Having spent most of the last decade in the Premier League and hopefully a lot more seasons to come, would it be prudent to increase the capacity at the ground?
At just under 22,000 current capacity, with all allocated season tickets sold, plus 8000 away tickets every game, capacity increase surely must be on the cards.
The BLS is the obvious choice.

8000 away fans?

Are we moving them to both tiers of the Longside?

[Funkydrummer]

Regarding our ground being embarrassing, don't away fans see it, like Everton's, as a "Proper" ground, that fans tend to appreciate more?

I think the older fans do, as a sort of trip back to how it used to be "in the good old days"

Not so much the younger generation I guess with everything plastic and having a short life span
in this throw away society.

[Chester Perry]

8000 away tickets ?

in a ground the poster identifies as having a 22k capacity, given the 16.5 k season tickets sold and around 1.5k-2k in hospitality seats and the regulation that requires a minimum of 1k of matchday tickets to be made available for every game in the home sections - that is some some tardis like maths

[fidelcastro]

Surely the easiest and quickest way to increase capacity is replace the wooden seats in the CFS & Bob Lord stand with plastic ones.

Do you mean because the seats would be smaller and people would be more crammed in?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Obviously it's only 8k away fans when Leeds visit because they're massive.

[Funkydrummer]

You leave our wooden seats alone !!!

[Spijed]

Do you mean because the seats would be smaller and people would be more crammed in?

Yes. That seems to be the case in the CFS with the away section being plastic seats.

[ClaretTony]

Regarding our ground being embarrassing, don't away fans see it, like Everton's, as a "Proper" ground, that fans tend to appreciate more?

I was with supporters of other clubs last night and so many of them were saying they were delighted we were back because they love coming to the Turf despite the poor facilities on offer for away fans.

[gawthorpe_view]

I'll die in a ditch defending my wooden seat!

[Spijed]

Do you mean because the seats would be smaller and people would be more crammed in?

Say each plastic seat is an inch shorter you'd probably get a 200-300 more in the bob Lord stand alone. However, that then brings into question the increase in numbers and whether we would be able to just replace the seats without building additional exits.

[NewClaret]

Been debated ad infinitum on here time and again. Yes, some areas of the ground need seriously upgrading as they are horrendously dated and bordering embarrassing bearing in mind the company we're keeping these days, but as for turning that upgrade into a serious increase in capacity, I (and many others) regularly say not. A couple of thousand up to around 24,000, absolutely, but beyond that, definitely no. Other clubs have got giddy after believing their stay in the PL will turn them into the next Man U or Real Madrid with over 30 and 40 thousand plus flocking to the ground every week. It doesn't happen and you look extremely silly with thousands of empty seats and large areas of the ground cordoned off and unused when the bubble bursts. (I'm busy trying to think of a prime example of the above to exemplify my point......mmmm.)
And btw we allocate around 2500 for away fans. Nothing like the 8000 suggested.

I agree with this.

The most sensible way forward in my view would be to extend the longside around to a two tier CFS, then have a big, wide tunnel in the corner with new state of the art changing rooms in the new quadrant - they are badly needed if we want to belong at this level.

Assuming the same capacity as the Jimmy Mac we’d gain around ~2000 extra seats:

- give 1k to the away team meaning at Prem level we’d be reciprocating their allocations and adding about £30k per home game income + some corporate for rich away fans (there’ll be plenty).
- 1k for us as available for ST holders, where we’re presumably accumulating a waiting list.

Upper tier would be safe standing and follow that around to the longside. Lower tier seating for those who need it.

Leave the BL - it’s loved by the fans that use it and any extension would ruin my view

[NewClaret]

I'll die in a ditch defending my wooden seat!

I went in there for the ladies match vs Wolves and thought they were the most uncomfortable thing I’d ever say on in my life.

[TheFamilyCat]

I'm doing poorly on my bingo card

2nd tier on BLS
Knock down BLS and build new
Rail seats in JHL
Rail seats in CFS
Plastic seats in BLS/CFS
Fill in corners between CFS & JH
Knock down CFS and build new
New out of town stadium

[Pickles]

I'll die in a ditch defending my wooden seat!

The amount of times I've reluctantly had this conversation with dim, glory hunting, Sussex born and bred Chelsea fans or people from Croydon who justify being a Man United fan because their grandad's best friend's dog once went on a bus through Oldham.

It's tedious.

In your house would you rather a wooden chair or a plastic chair? It's wooden. Costs more, better quality etc etc. But no, all you hear is "tURF MoOR HAs wOoDen sEaTS"

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I'm doing poorly on my bingo card

2nd tier on BLS
Knock down BLS and build new
Rail seats in JHL
Rail seats in CFS
Plastic seats in BLS/CFS
Fill in corners between CFS & JH
Knock down CFS and build new
New out of town stadium

The owners do have a chunk of land by the accy junction so an out of town stadium is a possibility in the future

[clarethomer]

I would argue a ground that was 24-25k would be a reasonable size for the club.

However I don't think it would financially would work to make those improvements purely for this reason.

Decisions will need to be made at some point about updating stands but unless the commercial side of the business can support this in addition to becoming a regular in the PL is probably meaning I wouldn't be expecting anything soon.

[Chester Perry]

The owners do have a chunk of land by the accy junction so an out of town stadium is a possibility in the future

I am not convinced that the Mollywood lane site is big enough - it was when they bought if off Bob Lord in the early 1970's - the proposal was to move the training ground there from the restricted size of Gawthorpe - that got blocked by events at the club and Lord bought most of the land back within a year or so

[NewClaret]

Just on the OP though, as per Tony’s article this morning, in 1998 ST holders were 6000. We’ve added 10.5k to that in 25 years albeit driven by on field success. I think it’s fair to say we could grow it further over the longer term if we remain a decent side.

Always thought that any empty seat on match day is a wasted opportunity and I’d give surplus tickets to schools, etc… but so are waiting lists. If a fan wants to be there every week we should be providing them the facility.

[ClaretTony]

I agree with this.

The most sensible way forward in my view would be to extend the longside around to a two tier CFS, then have a big, wide tunnel in the corner with new state of the art changing rooms in the new quadrant - they are badly needed if we want to belong at this level.

Assuming the same capacity as the Jimmy Mac we’d gain around ~2000 extra seats:

- give 1k to the away team meaning at Prem level we’d be reciprocating their allocations and adding about £30k per home game income + some corporate for rich away fans (there’ll be plenty).
- 1k for us as available for ST holders, where we’re presumably accumulating a waiting list.

Upper tier would be safe standing and follow that around to the longside. Lower tier seating for those who need it.

Leave the BL - it’s loved by the fans that use it and any extension would ruin my view

Firstly, you would need to purchase land from the cricket club to build a bigger stand and there would need to be entrances and exits across the back which would mean more land required.

I’m not sure there would be a commitment to sitting in a lower tier and standing in an upper tier either.

[Pickles]

I am not convinced that the Mollywood lane site is big enough - it was when they bought if off Bob Lord in the early 1970's - the proposal was to move the training ground there from the restricted size of Gawthorpe - that got blocked by events at the club and Lord bought most of the land back within a year or so

Is this the land next to the M65 and Lowerhouse Cricket Club?

[bfcjg]

We could sit on each others laps,double the gate. I'm overweight so I'll be the lap don't want my brilliant idea destroying by some smart @rse weightist.

[Chester Perry]

Just on the OP though, as per Tony’s article this morning, in 1998 ST holders were 6000. We’ve added 10.5k to that in 25 years albeit driven by on field success. I think it’s fair to say we could grow it further over the longer term if we remain a decent side.

Always thought that any empty seat on match day is a wasted opportunity and I’d give surplus tickets to schools, etc… but so are waiting lists. If a fan wants to be there every week we should be providing them the facility.

increasing ground capacity requires very large sums of money - season ticket waiting lists create opportunity for increasing prices year on year - membership schemes and increasing Matchday ticket prices - all with little investment

Where Premier League clubs have increased capacity they have done so when they have waiting lists/membership schemes with 5+ times numbers of that capacity increase - I expect the owners believe they will need to sweat the current capacity capability (including wooden seat replacement) for some time yet

[Jjjack]

The owners do have a chunk of land by the accy junction so an out of town stadium is a possibility in the future

Hope not, best suggestion I read was to redo the ground where it is now but move it further away from the road to allow the BL to be a proper 2 tier stand. I don't personally think the ground needs expanding, couple of bad seasons and 16th place finishes and we'll be back to 18000 gate

[Chester Perry]

Is this the land next to the M65 and Lowerhouse Cricket Club?

yes though what is retained is not directly adjacent to the cricket club

[ClaretTony]

Hope not, best suggestion I read was to redo the ground where it is now but move it further away from the road to allow the BL to be a proper 2 tier stand. I don't personally think the ground needs expanding, couple of bad seasons and 16th place finishes and we'll be back to 18000 gate

The Bob Lord stand goes nowhere near the road although the turnstiles do. You could potentially build a bigger stand there without moving anything.

[4midable]

Knock down and rebuild the bob lord then ballot the season tickets

[thehistorylecturer61]

Never going to happen and neither should it unless we find an unhinged benefactor with no dependents requiring a return on the investment .

[Chester Perry]

Firstly, you would need to purchase land from the cricket club to build a bigger stand and there would need to be entrances and exits across the back which would mean more land required.

I’m not sure there would be a commitment to sitting in a lower tier and standing in an upper tier either.

There are ways to use the current footprint - even if the club chooses not to lose rows of seats in the JML

if the front of the Cricket field is raised and a higher rake of seating is used then the capacity underneath (the current issue) can be increased - then you could fill in the corners

all very expensive though and that is the key here - how long (if ever) will the ROI take

[NewClaret]

Firstly, you would need to purchase land from the cricket club to build a bigger stand and there would need to be entrances and exits across the back which would mean more land required.

I’m not sure there would be a commitment to sitting in a lower tier and standing in an upper tier either.

I was having a look at that when watching my son play there a few months ago. I didn’t get my metre wheel out, but the depth of the stands didn’t look too different, although access would need sorting.

I also think that we should bring the fans much closer to the pitch so think there’s some room for moving it nearer the Jimmy Mac to create room.

But if we needed to, and I take your point it’s most likely we would, it’s only where the nets are. They could be easily moved across the other side of the ground. And I’ve always thought a joint venture could work whereby land is given up and say a new clubhouse facility that accommodates away fans on the day built for the CC.

That whole away experience could be really upgraded too if they worked in partnership together (the club house today is very tired and dingy).

Take your point about the rail seating split. Just can’t see how you do it if you had two tiers and you obviously need to provide some seating for those that like to sit (me at away games when I take my youngest).

[clarethomer]

I thought the owners had committed to the current site as it was important to keep that connection with the town and it being central to support the commercial activity that they benefited from as a result of thousands of fans coming into town each week when we played.

I seem to recall the turf to town project was part of that commitment?

Could have dreamt all of that but sure I have seen/read this somewhere

[Goody1975]

The priority would be to improve the view for a large proportion of the seats we already have, the ridiculous decision to build the lower tier of the Longside at pitch level being a prime example.

There are seats with restricted views (supporting pillars) in both the Bob Lord and Cricket Field stands, these (except CFS) are always the last seats to be sold. Any increase to capacity in the older stands comes with the major issue of concourse size and safety.

A long term aim for a capacity of 23-24,000 would be perfect for a club of our size.

[Spijed]

Just on the OP though, as per Tony’s article this morning, in 1998 ST holders were 6000. We’ve added 10.5k to that in 25 years albeit driven by on field success. I think it’s fair to say we could grow it further over the longer term if we remain a decent side.

is there any evidence that a club can grow?

Yes, crowds can increase with success, but will disappear fairly quickly over a few seasons once relegated and there is no quick return. That's not growth, just jumping on the bandwagon.

[Jamesy]

Knock down and rebuild the bob lord then ballot the season tickets

I’m sure your post is tongue in cheek? The next stand to knock down and rebuild would be the Cricket Field stand. Difficult though in a limited window.
The Bob Lord is fine as it is. However, if it were to be redeveloped in the distant future the bungalows/warden controlled accommodation the opposite side of the road would probably have to be demolished.
I agree with what some have said earlier in this thread. The current capacity is about right for a town the size of Burnley. It shouldn’t be the case that now we are back in the Premier League we need to increase the capacity. People will come and fill the ground if we are winning, regardless of the division we are in. Last season proved that.
And long live the Bob Lord Stand, I have sat in there for years and love it in there. And I am not quite an OAP just yet.

[Chester Perry]

is there any evidence that a club can grow?

Yes, crowds can increase with success, but will disappear fairly quickly over a few seasons once relegated and there is no quick return. That's not growth, just jumping on the bandwagon.

There is plenty of evidence in the last 60 years of attendance records that our current capacity (as a much more expensive to maintain all seater stadium) is actually fine

That said the growth in attendance within football in the last 30 years is huge - getting close to all time highs nationally for the combined 92 and increasing year on year

The difficult bit is to establish whether our club is one that can sustain larger attendances that may follow long term membership of the top flight - under the previous regime our capacity was never fully exercised over a complete season - actually the average was at the very best 1500+ below capacity

to change the capacity at this time makes little economic sense as has already be detailed up the thread - if the local population continues to grow, as seen in the last few years, that may change

[claretandy]

I’m sure your post is tongue in cheek? The next stand to knock down and rebuild would be the Cricket Field stand. Difficult though in a limited window.
The Bob Lord is fine as it is. However, if it were to be redeveloped in the distant future the bungalows/warden controlled accommodation the opposite side of the road would probably have to be demolished.
I agree with what some have said earlier in this thread. The current capacity is about right for a town the size of Burnley. It shouldn’t be the case that now we are back in the Premier League we need to increase the capacity. People will come and fill the ground if we are winning, regardless of the division we are in. Last season proved that.
And long live the Bob Lord Stand, I have sat in there for years and love it in there. And I am not quite an OAP just yet.

The bob lord doesn't even reach this side of the road, never mind the other side. Extending it above the offices would be enough.

[blatherwickstattoos]

If the cricket field was to be knocked down and rebuilt they’d have to do it from the cricket ground anyway, meaning the cricket club would have to find somewhere else to play for a summer or even 2… surely they can share with lowerhouse for a season and see how a proper club is run

In all seriousness though , it’s needed badly. One huge steep kop end at the cricket field with a section designed for away support it the only way it will work. Stick the away fans in the far right of the bob lord whilst the capacity is decreased. (Sure Wrexham away fans sat there in 92 I could be wrong)

[Spijed]

Does anyone know what our official capacity is?

[Juan Tanamera]

In your house would you rather a wooden chair or a plastic chair? It's wooden. Costs more, better quality etc etc. But no, all you hear is "tURF MoOR HAs wOoDen sEaTS"

The reprobates 12 miles down the road are always having a dig at our wooden seats, which seems a bit dumb when the seats in the away section have been plastic for 5 years or so.
Ask them if they have plastic or wooden at home and they won't give you an answer.

[fidelcastro]

I'm doing poorly on my bingo card

2nd tier on BLS
Knock down BLS and build new
Rail seats in JHL
Rail seats in CFS
Plastic seats in BLS/CFS
Fill in corners between CFS & JH
Knock down CFS and build new
New out of town stadium

You forgot putting away fans in the JML.

[Stayingup]

Plastic seating. I thought we were supposed to getting rid of plastic in the name of save the world. Back to standing then if the wooden seats are removed. Really the BL is need if an upgrade and probably the CF as well and maybe the corner between the filled in.

[Raconteur]

Not knowing much about Mollywood Lane, I thought i would Google it to find some more info. First thing that popped up was a YouTube video.

Now that is a conspiracy theory

https://youtu.be/ev6PnaLZkc8

[fidelcastro]

Does anyone know what our official capacity is?

Isn't it just shy of 22,000?

Edit: 21,744 according to the 'Rothmans' book from last season.