Set pieces

[1914tyrone]

Last season this was our Achilles heel, it had to be addressed as we looked like conceding all the time and did. It's still not been addressed. A change in the way we pick up players? To many free headers. I appreciate we are a small side, but we have to be more physical.

[Luppy]

All teams need to do against us is win free kicks and corners - job done. Bet your bottom dollar Woy will be organising set pieces for his very big side as we speak

The positioning of our players when seconds goal went in last night summed us up - clueless

And this is the bit that I am struggling with. One of the best centre halves in the modern game Overseeing defensive shambles after defensive shambles week after week. It makes no sense

[ArmchairDetective]

I was thinking about this earlier this morning. It was a clear weakness last season but thankfully we were able to make up for that with our strengths. You'd have thought we'd have worked hard on improving at set pieces over the summer. If I'm not mistaken Kompany was part of a smallish City team that I doubt was anywhere near as bad from set pieces as we are now. Why can't we sort it? Don't we have a set piece coach?

[ralph8]

Sheffield United will be a problem if we don’t sort this out.

[bfcjg]

We must be the only team where a corner for us is actually more beneficial for the opposition, just how many times do the opposition successfully defend the corner and break at pace and we scramble to get back and defend.

[SalisburyClaret]

Isn’t Mike Jackson responsible for the defensive tactics?

[warksclaret]

No doubt our set piece coach is being well paid. I would like to think VK will haul him in the office as our defending AGAIN last night was inexcusable. The little push by Cullen on Tarkowski - he was left to mark a player who is one of the most dangerous at set pieces in the PL,was reminiscent of a push at a 6 year old girls party.Under Dyche who was no great coach the danger men would be picked up by Mee, Tarks, Wood or even Barnes. Two goals came from corners headed by Tarks unmarked. We may have won at Luton but on the night Luton could have scored 3-4 goals in the second half from unmarked players-I was there.

We keep blaming the squad and the inexperience. We cant influence that for another two months. No one on here has been able to identify the volume of goals conceded through poor marking , particularly at set pieces,and giving the ball away. The figure for Brentford, Bournemouth and Everton alone is 5 goals out of 8.

Where has all that post match analysis and drilling players on their roles, seen so clearly on MISSION gone. I hope Alan Pace intervenes and raises this issue, because until we learn and address bad experiences we are simply not a PL side

[Blatherwickstattoo]

How did the new set piece coach get employed. He’s stealing a living

[boyyanno]

No doubt our set piece coach is being well paid. I would like to think VK will haul him in the office as our defending AGAIN last night was inexcusable. The little push by Cullen on Tarkowski - he was left to mark a player who is one of the most dangerous at set pieces in the PL,was reminiscent of a push at a 6 year old girls party.Under Dyche who was no great coach the danger men would be picked up by Mee, Tarks, Wood or even Barnes. Two goals came from corners headed by Tarks unmarked. We may have won at Luton but on the night Luton could have scored 3-4 goals in the second half from unmarked players-I was there.

We keep blaming the squad and the inexperience. We cant influence that for another two months. No one on here has been able to identify the volume of goals conceded through poor marking , particularly at set pieces,and giving the ball away. The figure for Brentford, Bournemouth and Everton alone is 5 goals out of 8.

Where has all that post match analysis and drilling players on their roles, seen so clearly on MISSION gone. I hope Alan Pace intervenes and raises this issue, because until we learn and address bad experiences we are simply not a PL side

"Under Dyche who was no great coach"

Aye he was a crap coach Dyche, he didn't achieve anything with a squad worse than the rest of the division and he certainly didn't improve any players to the point they received international recognition.

Honestly how can some people post this kind of garbage.

[warksclaret]

"Under Dyche who was no great coach"

Aye he was a crap coach Dyche, he didn't achieve anything with a squad worse than the rest of the division and he certainly didn't improve any players to the point they received international recognition.

Honestly how can some people post this kind of garbage.

In trying to appear sensational you have picked up on a point about Dyche but missed my point. For me Dyche is not a great coach and the benchmark is the PL-his tactics, formations, ability to change a game etc are not at the top of PL managers listing. In all the PL games he managed how many id we win when we went behind ??., What he does do is getting the best out of every player, drilling their roles,and his mental strength. I posted a few days ago that his mental strength was one of his greatest qualities.Any side under Dyche will always be well drilled and organised. He was out of work for 10 months-good PL coaches dont normally go this long without work and over half the PL sides sacked their managers last season. You will tell me next that we have not made mistakes or marked poorly in games this season, which is the whole point of my post

[boyyanno]

In trying to appear sensational you have picked up on a point about Dyche but missed my point. For me Dyche is not a great coach and the benchmark is the PL-his tactics, formations, ability to change a game etc are not at the top of PL managers listing. In all the PL games he managed how many id we win when we went behind ??., What he does do is getting the best out of every player, drilling their roles,and his mental strength. I posted a few days ago that his mental strength was one of his greatest qualities.Any side under Dyche will always be well drilled and organised. He was out of work for 10 months-good PL coaches dont normally go this long without work and over half the PL sides sacked their managers last season. You will tell me next that we have not made mistakes or marked poorly in games this season, which is the whole point of my post

Any point you wanted to make was redundant when you said Dyche wasn't a great coach.

Can you please explain how Dyche recruited (and improved) players like Tarks, Keane, Cork, Heaton to England caps if he wasnt a great coach?

How he kept a side worse than this one in the division if he wasn't a great coach?

Absolute pathetic crap is this stuff. So tiring.

[ClaretLoup]

What he does do is getting the best out of every player, drilling their roles,and his mental strength. I posted a few days ago that his mental strength was one of his greatest qualities.Any side under Dyche will always be well drilled and organised.

Isn’t that what coaching is?

Isn’t taking a run of the mill player like Barnes and getting 40+ EPL goals out of him great coaching or did Basher teach himself?

[spt_claret]

In trying to appear sensational you have picked up on a point about Dyche but missed my point. For me Dyche is not a great coach and the benchmark is the PL-his tactics, formations, ability to change a game etc are not at the top of PL managers listing. In all the PL games he managed how many id we win when we went behind ??., What he does do is getting the best out of every player, drilling their roles,and his mental strength. I posted a few days ago that his mental strength was one of his greatest qualities.Any side under Dyche will always be well drilled and organised. He was out of work for 10 months-good PL coaches dont normally go this long without work and over half the PL sides sacked their managers last season. You will tell me next that we have not made mistakes or marked poorly in games this season, which is the whole point of my post

His tactics and formations were superb. You don't beat Liverpool 2-0 with 20% possession by being weak on that, that's expert tactical setup to get the most out of a squad that you know is technically and athletically inferior to the opposition. Furthermore we DID play different tactics under Dyche, not all 442s are the same. We qualified for Europe with a textbook catenaccio setup with a side order of gegenpresse. With Ings/Vokes we played a system very close to Ferguson at United in the late 90s/early 00s, however with an inversion of the right hand roles- the RB was the creator rather than the RM who underlapped. We won the Championship with a heavy gegenpresse added to this setup. When money ran out we switched to a double target man setup with one as the holdup man and the other as the goal focus. For a brief time we experimented with a 4411 with Hendrick as a false 10. With Cornet in we played a few variations on an asymmetrical 442 sometimes he was an advanced winger sometimes he was an offset second striker or trequartista. The only drastically obvious difference is between the Championship winning/Europe qualifying approach and the last 18 months, beyond that it's tinkering and tweaks but it's still evolution.

Ability to change a game, I 100% agree. His use of subs was often belated or weak, it wasn't helped by the transfer budget meaning we generally had few quality options and not much besides like for like (with the noteable exception of Vydra being tangibly different to Jay/Wood/Barnes) but even in spite of that he was reserved. We mixed it up against Chelsea in his final season, grabbed a draw nearly stole the win, by going 433 with Vydra/Jay/Cornet, our most mobile frontline,and never tried it again. Unfortunately while his sub use is poorer than most, the reluctance to overhaul your approach isn't a flaw unique to Dyche, almost no managers drastically overhaul their setup and have multiple entirely distinct systems and approaches. The only manager I can think of to consistently do so without it being a gradual tinkering and evolution is Carlo Ancelotti, or on occasion Ferguson. Most managers have a plan A, a substitute plan for Plan A, and one or two relatively subtle variations on plan A. They're just better at timing and choosing, or better equipped with, substitutes, so it's less obvious that their genius decision was just a like for like refresh and minor tweak.

Dyche was out of work for 10 months for one reason only- his style was perceived as unfashionable and "not real football" by the vocal plurality of people in sport and sports press obsessed with following style trends, the latest of which is the polar opposite of Dyches last 2-3 years at Burnley.

[warksclaret]

His tactics and formations were superb. You don't beat Liverpool 2-0 with 20% possession by being weak on that, that's expert tactical setup to get the most out of a squad that you know is technically and athletically inferior to the opposition. Furthermore we DID play different tactics under Dyche, not all 442s are the same. We qualified for Europe with a textbook catenaccio setup with a side order of gegenpresse. With Ings/Vokes we played a system very close to Ferguson at United in the late 90s/early 00s, however with an inversion of the right hand roles- the RB was the creator rather than the RM who underlapped. We won the Championship with a heavy gegenpresse added to this setup. When money ran out we switched to a double target man setup with one as the holdup man and the other as the goal focus. For a brief time we experimented with a 4411 with Hendrick as a false 10. With Cornet in we played a few variations on an asymmetrical 442 sometimes he was an advanced winger sometimes he was an offset second striker or trequartista. The only drastically obvious difference is between the Championship winning/Europe qualifying approach and the last 18 months, beyond that it's tinkering and tweaks but it's still evolution.

Ability to change a game, I 100% agree. His use of subs was often belated or weak, it wasn't helped by the transfer budget meaning we generally had few quality options and not much besides like for like (with the noteable exception of Vydra being tangibly different to Jay/Wood/Barnes) but even in spite of that he was reserved. We mixed it up against Chelsea in his final season, grabbed a draw nearly stole the win, by going 433 with Vydra/Jay/Cornet, our most mobile frontline,and never tried it again. Unfortunately while his sub use is poorer than most, the reluctance to overhaul your approach isn't a flaw unique to Dyche, almost no managers drastically overhaul their setup and have multiple entirely distinct systems and approaches. The only manager I can think of to consistently do so without it being a gradual tinkering and evolution is Carlo Ancelotti, or on occasion Ferguson. Most managers have a plan A, a substitute plan for Plan A, and one or two relatively subtle variations on plan A. They're just better at timing and choosing, or better equipped with, substitutes, so it's less obvious that their genius decision was just a like for like refresh and minor tweak.

Dyche was out of work for 10 months for one reason only- his style was perceived as unfashionable and "not real football" by the vocal plurality of people in sport and sports press obsessed with following style trends, the latest of which is the polar opposite of Dyches last 2-3 years at Burnley.

Sopt-Claret I can appreciate responses like yours. Its articulate and well written and shows a great all round insight, acknowleding some of my points points but defending others in a constructive manner.Its refreshing

[spt_claret]

Sopt-Claret I can appreciate responses like yours. Its articulate and well written and shows a great all round insight, acknowleding some of my points points but defending others in a constructive manner.Its refreshing

You're welcome, thanks for reading - I have a habit of going a bit long which isn't always great on a messageboard but I'd rather provide detail than brevity.

[Blondeclaret]

No doubt our set piece coach is being well paid. I would like to think VK will haul him in the office as our defending AGAIN last night was inexcusable. The little push by Cullen on Tarkowski - he was left to mark a player who is one of the most dangerous at set pieces in the PL,was reminiscent of a push at a 6 year old girls party.Under Dyche who was no great coach the danger men would be picked up by Mee, Tarks, Wood or even Barnes. Two goals came from corners headed by Tarks unmarked. We may have won at Luton but on the night Luton could have scored 3-4 goals in the second half from unmarked players-I was there.

We keep blaming the squad and the inexperience. We cant influence that for another two months. No one on here has been able to identify the volume of goals conceded through poor marking , particularly at set pieces,and giving the ball away. The figure for Brentford, Bournemouth and Everton alone is 5 goals out of 8.

Where has all that post match analysis and drilling players on their roles, seen so clearly on MISSION gone. I hope Alan Pace intervenes and raises this issue, because until we learn and address bad experiences we are simply not a PL side

VK actually has two set piece coaches who I’m sure are picking up very good wages. But like you cannot see what good they are doing.

[jojomk1]

If you watch most teams now

Defending
Main tall defenders seem to position themselves in a zonal formation and have smaller guys trying to block oppositions tall guys as they make their runs
Classic example of that failing was the use of Cullen to mark Tarks who then gets free header back into goal area for their 2nd goal. He was pretty much always the first target when he played for us in the same way

Attacking
Again the smaller attacking men are used to try and block tall defenders as the taller guys move around the zonal set up. Example again last night at one of our corners that Cullen tried to block one of their defenders with a blatant shove and they get the free kick

The old system used to be that tall guys marked tall opposition with the smaller guys operating in a zone - seems the best way to me

[CoolClaret]

How did the new set piece coach get employed. He’s stealing a living

He really is - and I hate using that term but it's inexcusable

[CoolClaret]

"Under Dyche who was no great coach"

Aye he was a crap coach Dyche, he didn't achieve anything with a squad worse than the rest of the division and he certainly didn't improve any players to the point they received international recognition.

Honestly how can some people post this kind of garbage.

Ironic how he's saying that about Dyche who completely out thought our set piece tactics through ermm.... 'crap coaching'

[basil6345789]

Isn’t Mike Jackson responsible for the defensive tactics?

Here comes the latest scapegoat

[Woodleyclaret]

You need a keeper who will come for crosses not stay fixed to his line or attempt some lame punch
The keeper gathering the ball plays it first time out wide to speedy wingers which we have.

[Nonayforever]

Are set pieces under the same tutor as throw ins ?

They are truly awful, take forever and never achieve anything.

[SalisburyClaret]

Here comes the latest scapegoat

Why? Genuine question- thought that was his role

[jojomk1]

Why? Genuine question- thought that was his role

Thought I saw a title of "Defensive Coach" in an article

[Blatherwickstattoo]

We brought a set piece coach in over the summer . (No honestly we actually did)

[Belgianclaret]

This is indeed a weak point which hasn't been properly addressed.

I feared we would get done by this in the Everton game, and unfortunately it turned out like that...

What struck me was that Tarkowski's was not marked by either Beyer or AAD but a player who was much smaller (can't remember who) - these are school boy errors

[spt_claret]

This is indeed a weak point which hasn't been properly addressed.

I feared we would get done by this in the Everton game, and unfortunately it turned out like that...

What struck me was that Tarkowski's was not marked by either Beyer or AAD but a player who was much smaller (can't remember who) - these are school boy errors

Cullen, pretty much our smallest player on the pitch.

I don't mind zonal marking in certain situations- specifically if you have the physical or experience edge, or are up against small but nimble clever players who can lose a marker 1 to 1. But against Everton with the likes of Tarks, or a team like Luton etc., basically anybody with big aerial units, you have to put your big guys on their big guys and go man to man. Tarks isn't going to outfox a man marker but he'll easily outjump him if he's 5'8".

[dougcollins]

Were we zonal marking when Young scored - we seem to have every bit of the 6 yard box covered apart from the bit he was in?

[Cheshireclaret]

The set piece coach is clearly either utterly inept, or being ignored. Whichever it is, it needs sorting immediately because if I have to see our pathetic attempts at corners, appalling back passes from free kicks or zonal marking whereby our entire team stand and watch the ball drop in the 18 yard box and invite an opposition player to tap it in then it needs taking out of VK’s hands because the individual concerned is clearly not fit for purpose.

[Commy]

These set pieces are caused by us by losing the ball. Kompany said he wanted players who could high press and be prepared to do 700 passes a game. We can't do that many unless the opposition just sit back as we keep giving the damn ball away and putting pressure on ourselves. This causes fouls and corners against us. All these players are supposed to be technical but don't seem to be able to control the ball. We also play too slow so the opposition can set themselves up so they steal it off us.

[dougcollins]

Cork has been an important (and overlooked) part of our set piece defensive armoury. Up there with the tallest in the team and a more than competent header of the ball.

[Carwin261]

The set piece coach is clearly either utterly inept, or being ignored. Whichever it is, it needs sorting immediately because if I have to see our pathetic attempts at corners, appalling back passes from free kicks or zonal marking whereby our entire team stand and watch the ball drop in the 18 yard box and invite an opposition player to tap it in then it needs taking out of VK’s hands because the individual concerned is clearly not fit for purpose.

2 or 3 times just before 1/2 time we had free kicks on the half way line and Brownhill appeared to be turning round to the SP coach asking him what to do ,he was even coming into the technical area when Palace had a throw in and was shouting instructions when VK sat down,but Bellers hardly seem to have any imput.

[boatshed bill]

The set piece coach is clearly either utterly inept, or being ignored. Whichever it is, it needs sorting immediately because if I have to see our pathetic attempts at corners, appalling back passes from free kicks or zonal marking whereby our entire team stand and watch the ball drop in the 18 yard box and invite an opposition player to tap it in then it needs taking out of VK’s hands because the individual concerned is clearly not fit for purpose.

You can do all the coaching possible in training, it's all about how the players make it work on the pitch.
I'd willingly wager a large sum that we work very hard on every aspect of defence in training, the problem at present is our all round lack of experience.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Our set pieces are pathetic. One classic first half Koleosho made a run from a throw in and Vitinho threw it out of play. Numerous aimless corners and free kicks.