North Macedonia v England

[Big Vinny K]

England’s defence is not as bad as people are making out.
Pickford been as consistent as any international keeper - I don’t especially like him but cannot fault his record and displays for England. The Italy keeper was being touted as the next big thing and he has made far more big mistakes than Pickford in the last couple of years.

Maguire’s record for England is also very good. But you also have Stones and even Walker who can play there. Loads of great options at right back - more quality in that position than any country in the world.
If Chilwell is fit - he’s not a bad option at left back. But Tripps isn’t either - he brings his set piece quality but also his leadership skills, experience, composure on the ball etc

Everywhere else on the pitch England are very strong. How many squads in the world would Sterling not walk into with the way he is playing this season ?

The back up to Kane is not as strong as it could be - but the likes of Toney, Watkins, Wilson have shown in the PL that they are at the very least as good as Richarlson and other strikers who get in the bigger nations teams. But the likelihood is that if Kane is fit none of these would be needed other than possibly as subs.

The midfield and creative options are excellent. And in Rice, Bellingham, Foden, Grealish etc you have some incredible athletes as well as the skills, goals, creativity etc.

[Rileybobs]

I apologise for misinterpreting your point regarding Tripps.

Personally, Southgate messed up with his ‘pick players on form’ comment he made when first appointed, to then never really back it up. I lost interest in international football years ago, of course I’d like us to win something but I won’t lose any sleep over it if we don’t even make it out the group stages.

In regards to relegated players, Nick Pope and Tom Heaton were relegated from the Championship, James Maddison was, there’ll be plenty of others who are good enough. That shouldn’t even come into the thought process. If you’re good enough and in form, it should be as easy as that.

We’ll all see on Saturday how influential JWP can be.

I didn't say that JWP being relegated should be a factor in him being selected for England, I suggested that it's reaching to claim that a player relegated from the PL and available to any PL club yet signed by West Ham would be the difference in England winning a tournament or not, which is the point warks made.

There's no doubting that JWP is an influential player, and I'm sure he will be a threat against a team rock bottom of the Premier League who have a weakness at defending set pieces, but that won't prove a single thing about whether he would make a difference between England winning a tournament or not.

[KRBFC]

The over riding point (rather than nitpicking) is that we have side jam packed with top, top taken… A good number that played regularly last year for a treble winning side, two more are arguably the best play in La Liga/Bundesliga respectively, two more are two of the best in the Prem (Rice, Saka)…

We’ve always had top talent, squads filled with world class players. Southgate has the best record in the last 50 years but not the best squad.

[Sproggy]

Maguire’s record for England is also very good.

Englands record with Maguire playing is very good, but that's despite him not because of him. He's making at least one howler a game at the minute. Fortunately against teams like Malta and Macedonia it doesn't matter.

Quick search...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cv2n7ey14mzo
https://onefootball.com/en/news/man-utd ... e-35914586
https://www.soccernation.us/news/Maguir ... -0003.html
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/24799053 ... s-johnson/

He shouldn't be anywhere near the England team - he's a liability.

[Big Vinny K]

Englands record with Maguire playing is very good, but that's despite him not because of him. He's making at least one howler a game at the minute. Fortunately against teams like Malta and Macedonia it doesn't matter.

Quick search...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cv2n7ey14mzo
https://onefootball.com/en/news/man-utd ... e-35914586
https://www.soccernation.us/news/Maguir ... -0003.html
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/24799053 ... s-johnson/

He shouldn't be anywhere near the England team - he's a liability.

I kind of agree and I think he’s absolutely awful for United.
It’s also correct that since he’s lost his confidence for United he’s making big mistakes for England - which against better teams are more likely to be punished.

But I can also see why Southgate picks him. He’s often the player who wins the ball at set pieces and corners in both boxes and even in the tournaments these have in the past been a big part of Englands play.

[warksclaret]

It's a free kick from Ward-Prowse that's going to win you a final? I'll have a pint of whatever you're smoking.

And I bet whenever Sterling was playing you were laying the fault at someone else being left out of the squad - probably Ivan Toney or something. Like I say, lowest common denominator thinking.

I guess you don't remember the Beckham free kick in the last minute v Greece.But for that we would not have qualified-big game moments. This is just about opinions my friend-for me if its a case of having JWP and Sterling on the bench or Henderson and Phillips I know who the great majority would go for. I dont ever recall being publicly critical of Sterling being in the team, but you seem to know better

[Rileybobs]

I guess you don't remember the Beckham free kick in the last minute v Greece.But for that we would not have qualified-big game moments. This is just about opinions my friend-for me if its a case of having JWP and Sterling on the bench or Henderson and Phillips I know who the great majority would go for. I dont ever recall being publicly critical of Sterling being in the team, but you seem to know better

Yes I remember Beckham scoring a free kick over 20 years ago which guaranteed our qualification for a tournament that we may very well have still made it to through a qualifier if not. But in any case, Beckham wasn't in the England side just for his set piece delivery, he was a better player than JWP and England's captain. And it's not really a question of Sterling v Henderson or Phillips is it, because they play in different positions. On current form it is probably a case of Sterling v Rashford, and there's a fair case that Sterling should get the nod which he may very well do so by the time the squad is named for the tournament - a tournament that we qualified for with two games to spare and without losing a game.

I didn't ever say you were critical of Sterling being in the team, I said that if Sterling and JWP were in the squad people like you would find someone else's omission a reason to cricticise Southgate - because that's just the simplistic and rather infantile nature of the criticism.

[equinox]

I guess you don't remember the Beckham free kick in the last minute v Greece.

Imagine having to rely on an 90th minute free kick to DRAW with GREECE at home to qualify for a major tournament?

[dougcollins]

Imagine having to rely on an 90th minute free kick to DRAW with GREECE at home to qualify for a major tournament?

They did win the Euro's in 2004.

[equinox]

They did win the Euro's in 2004.

Hence my comment, what a result against a true powerhouse of International football.

[Spijed]

We’ve always had top talent, squads filled with world class players. Southgate has the best record in the last 50 years but not the best squad.

When you look back, Shearer was every bit as good as Kane, Ferdinand & Terry a class above any centre half pairing we have now. Ashley Cole arguably the best left back we've ever had and in midfield Lampard, Gerrard & Scholes as good as, if not better than anything we have now.

[dougcollins]

Hence my comment, what a result against a true powerhouse of International football.

Not following your point tbh.

I was just saying perhaps Greece weren't as bad as you portrayed them.

When was the last time we won the Euro's?

[equinox]

Not following your point tbh.

I was just saying perhaps Greece weren't as bad as you portrayed them.

When was the last time we won the Euro's?

We've never won it, which makes that draw against them even more incredible, don't you think?

I wish this current team were capable of such results.
,

[timshorts]

When you look back, Shearer was every bit as good as Kane, Ferdinand & Terry a class above any centre half pairing we have now. Ashley Cole arguably the best left back we've ever had and in midfield Lampard, Gerrard & Scholes as good as, if not better than anything we have now.

Well if you'd had a rice in that side instead of Gerrard, you might have won something.

[spt_claret]

Yes I remember Beckham scoring a free kick over 20 years ago which guaranteed our qualification for a tournament that we may very well have still made it to through a qualifier if not. But in any case, Beckham wasn't in the England side just for his set piece delivery, he was a better player than JWP and England's captain. And it's not really a question of Sterling v Henderson or Phillips is it, because they play in different positions. On current form it is probably a case of Sterling v Rashford, and there's a fair case that Sterling should get the nod which he may very well do so by the time the squad is named for the tournament - a tournament that we qualified for with two games to spare and without losing a game.

I didn't ever say you were critical of Sterling being in the team, I said that if Sterling and JWP were in the squad people like you would find someone else's omission a reason to cricticise Southgate - because that's just the simplistic and rather infantile nature of the criticism.

Leaving aside the fact you're strawmanning criticism by inventing imaginary hypocrisy to dismiss what he's saying, this still misses the point of assembling the best squad you can.

Henderson offers nothing that Ward Prowse lacks besides experience, and Henderson isn't going to be a match winner for England anymore. Ward Prowse might, no matter how people dismiss it, because you can't predict how a tournament or the matches in it will unfold. Trailing with minutes to go and you've got a sub to use, throw him on and nab a free kick and that could level it.

Sterling likewise is a potential matchwinner or at very least a penalty winner, he might not be a like for like for Philips as you say but he's a better bet than a lot of players. We play a single striker system under Southgate, we only need one understudy, and Rashford could deputise at a push for third choice if that's a worry.

But overall its a matter of death by a thousand cuts, players are lazy and lethargic for these sorts of game the past week as there's nothing to gain for them and nothing at stake- including competition for their spot in many cases. That breeds complacency, on top of the fact that taking slightly weaker or out of form or lacking sharpness players, across multiple positions, adds up to a weaker squad.

Tarkowski can command the box at both ends from set pieces just as good as Maguire if that's the logic, and is in better form. Tomori won Serie A as a CB but gets 45 minutes out of position, why's he the one who makes way rather than Guehi or Maguire and giving him a go in that position?

These past two games were the exact sort of game you bring Sterling, Ward Prowse in, recall Tarks, give Tomori a proper crack, hell maybe throw a few debutants in, say "show me what you can do to stay in contention". The regulars gain nothing and didn't seem like they wanted to be there, Southgate learns nothing from playing them, and all it sends out is the message that his squad is selected regardless of form which doesn't exactly gee up anybody in or out of selection.

It's a problem every England manager has had, Southgate wasn't so bad for it back in 2018 weirdly when there was a theoretically weaker squad, and he did better that way, but he's reverted to the same "conventional wisdom" that's won England nothing. Zero excuse to keep picking Henderson especially after he made a big deal about not picking lower league players, the Saudi league makes the championship look good it's dreadful aside from a slug of past their prime big names.

[Rileybobs]

Leaving aside the fact you're strawmanning criticism by inventing imaginary hypocrisy to dismiss what he's saying, this still misses the point of assembling the best squad you can.

Henderson offers nothing that Ward Prowse lacks besides experience, and Henderson isn't going to be a match winner for England anymore. Ward Prowse might, no matter how people dismiss it, because you can't predict how a tournament or the matches in it will unfold. Trailing with minutes to go and you've got a sub to use, throw him on and nab a free kick and that could level it.

Sterling likewise is a potential matchwinner or at very least a penalty winner, he might not be a like for like for Philips as you say but he's a better bet than a lot of players. We play a single striker system under Southgate, we only need one understudy, and Rashford could deputise at a push for third choice if that's a worry.

But overall its a matter of death by a thousand cuts, players are lazy and lethargic for these sorts of game the past week as there's nothing to gain for them and nothing at stake- including competition for their spot in many cases. That breeds complacency, on top of the fact that taking slightly weaker or out of form or lacking sharpness players, across multiple positions, adds up to a weaker squad.

Tarkowski can command the box at both ends from set pieces just as good as Maguire if that's the logic, and is in better form. Tomori won Serie A as a CB but gets 45 minutes out of position, why's he the one who makes way rather than Guehi or Maguire and giving him a go in that position?

These past two games were the exact sort of game you bring Sterling, Ward Prowse in, recall Tarks, give Tomori a proper crack, hell maybe throw a few debutants in, say "show me what you can do to stay in contention". The regulars gain nothing and didn't seem like they wanted to be there, Southgate learns nothing from playing them, and all it sends out is the message that his squad is selected regardless of form which doesn't exactly gee up anybody in or out of selection.

It's a problem every England manager has had, Southgate wasn't so bad for it back in 2018 weirdly when there was a theoretically weaker squad, and he did better that way, but he's reverted to the same "conventional wisdom" that's won England nothing. Zero excuse to keep picking Henderson especially after he made a big deal about not picking lower league players, the Saudi league makes the championship look good it's dreadful aside from a slug of past their prime big names.

I’m not sure where I’m strawmanning.

Lots of points in your post, too many to respond to at the minute - and I agree with you that these kind of meaningless games result in lethargic performances from England. But it’s always been the same, it’s also the same when you watch a Burnley pre-season friendly.

As for throwing in players like Tarks, if he’s got no intention to use him then why bother? We know that these camps are more about just the football for Southgate. It’s about breeding a culture and team ethos between the players and I suspect he would have valued the time off the pitch more than on the pitch last week.

Also, as for JWP offering something that Henderson doesn’t. I think you’re missing the, what I see to be, quite obvious reason why he persists in selecting Henderson - and that’s his experience and leadership. No doubt people will scoff at this but he’s a player who’s been there and done that at club and international level and I suspect Southgate values having someone like him around the group. And to draw another comparison with Burnley I think this season so far proves how important players like that can be in a group.