Getting promoted too early

[dougcollins]

When we're in the Championship next season, when are we ok to come up? Do we give it another season down there, then decide to get promoted?

It really doesn't work like that. I believe we came up ahead of schedule but really haven't dealt with it anywhere near as well as we could have.

[boatshed bill]

When we're in the Championship next season, when are we ok to come up? Do we give it another season down there, then decide to get promoted?

It really doesn't work like that. I believe we came up ahead of schedule but really haven't dealt with it anywhere near as well as we could have.

Go on then, explain how we (you) would have done it so much better.

[CoolClaret]

Now you’re being idiotic on purpose, who said Tella would come here over a top four side in Germany? Who said it was VK who said no to Tella? Maybe Pace said no to Southampton and left VK to find a replacement?

You’re assuming VK said no to Tella and chose an alternative, then using that to slag off VK like it’s a fact.

Leverkusen deffo came in late for Tella - I mean, he literally started the champ season playing for the Saints… I think both sides were messing the other around in that deal but I still think he would’ve signed if we went in early. It’s whatever.

I’m not suggesting VK said no to Tella specifically, I’m suggesting the whole recruitment team didn’t value him at the price the saints valued him at and our attempt to replace him hasn’t succeeded.

[Jakubclaret]

Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to assume we were trying to sign Tella and for whatever reason we didn’t, he landed in Germany. What is that reason?

How do you know VK said “we will find better value elsewhere?”

How do you know Tella would have been a better value buy than Koleosho?

You’re making **** up, there’s no evidence VK didn’t want Tella, no evidence Tella wanted to return and zero evidence Tella would have succeeded in the PL here. Why are we acting like a guy with 1 PL goal was such a sure fire thing?

"Doesn't take a rocket scientist to assume we were trying to sign Tella and for whatever reason we didn’t, he landed in Germany" well he was available for £20m so we never tried hard enough & in the same breath some expect us to believe we was prepared to shell out £30m plus for IM when we couldn't even find £20m for the 1 guy who was probably the most instrumental in us achieving promotion, it's an headscratcher for sure. You keep banging that same drum insisting that NT would have chose BL over us without even knowing that the choice existed. Southampton would have been happy to do business with us they had already loaning him out & we wouldn't have been competition for them in a different league, it was prioritised to allocate that money on a young goalkeeper.

[boatshed bill]

"Doesn't take a rocket scientist to assume we were trying to sign Tella and for whatever reason we didn’t, he landed in Germany" well he was available for £20m so we never tried hard enough & in the same breath some expect us to believe we was prepared to shell out £30m plus for IM when we couldn't even find £20m for the 1 guy who was probably the most instrumental in us achieving promotion, it's an headscratcher for sure. You keep banging that same drum insisting that NT would have chose BL over us without even knowing that the choice existed. Southampton would have been happy to do business with us they had already loaning him out & we wouldn't have been competition for them in a different league, it was prioritised to allocate that money on a young goalkeeper.

That could be described as fantasy.
I still firmly believe that Tella didn't want to come back.

[KRBFC]

"Doesn't take a rocket scientist to assume we were trying to sign Tella and for whatever reason we didn’t, he landed in Germany" well he was available for £20m so we never tried hard enough & in the same breath some expect us to believe we was prepared to shell out £30m plus for IM when we couldn't even find £20m for the 1 guy who was probably the most instrumental in us achieving promotion, it's an headscratcher for sure. You keep banging that same drum insisting that NT would have chose BL over us without even knowing that the choice existed. Southampton would have been happy to do business with us they had already loaning him out & we wouldn't have been competition for them in a different league, it was prioritised to allocate that money on a young goalkeeper.

I don’t know if Tella would have chose us over Leverkusen, nobody on here knows who he would chose, just like nobody knows why he didn’t come here. Which makes the whole slagging off VK based on assumptions stupid.

[Jakubclaret]

That could be described as fantasy.
I still firmly believe that Tella didn't want to come back.

We don't know what efforts (if any) went into enticing Nathan back on a permanent basis. But it's assumed as common knowledge that we did but wasn't successful, but the 2 facts that can't be ignored is that we know he enjoyed his time here successfully so & he was available for £20m. It's quite easy to forget (for some people) that we had massive headstart over BL signalling any sort of real intent to bring him back & you could say based on his spell here we would have been a firm favourite.

[boatshed bill]

We don't know what efforts (if any) went into enticing Nathan back on a permanent basis. But it's assumed as common knowledge that we did but wasn't successful, but the 2 facts that can't be ignored is that we know he enjoyed his time here successfully so & he was available for £20m. It's quite easy to forget (for some people) that we had massive headstart over BL signalling any sort of real intent to bring him back & you could say based on his spell here we would have been a firm favourite.

We really don't know very much about it, do we?

[Jakubclaret]

We really don't know very much about it, do we?

Not 100%. but enough to draw some unsavoury conclusions on our approach to recruitment & wanton neglect to successful loans.

[boatshed bill]

Not 100%. but enough to draw some unsavoury conclusions on our approach to recruitment & wanton neglect to successful loans.

Only if you choose to.

[dougcollins]

Go on then, explain how we (you) would have done it so much better.

Centre it on the team that won the promotion in the first place?

[Jakubclaret]

I don’t know if Tella would have chose us over Leverkusen, nobody on here knows who he would chose, just like nobody knows why he didn’t come here. Which makes the whole slagging off VK based on assumptions stupid.

My interpretation is that some people are slagging off VK purely for bizarre tactics & team selection & the results, admittedly recruitment is part of that, criticism of VK is multiple reasons & not solely based around nathan tellas destination after the loan period finished.

[boatshed bill]

Centre it on the team that won the promotion in the first place?

Minus the loanees who didn't come back (for whatever reason)?

[Jakubclaret]

Minus the loanees who didn't come back (for whatever reason)?

But VK in part is partly responsible why they wasn't signed because he went chasing off after other targets, IM exempt if the alleged reports are proven to be true although no evidence exists contrary.

[boatshed bill]

But VK in part is partly responsible why they wasn't signed because he went chasing off after other targets, IM exempt if the alleged reports are proven to be true although no evidence exists contrary.

Perhaps for the right reasons.
We have no idea what goes on in negotiation between agents and football clubs. Everything you read on here could be total bulls hit, and that includes everything I post

[Dark Cloud]

No such thing as getting promoted too early. We signed players for it, we trained for it, we fought for it, we wanted it and we beat all comers and we won it. The promotion really wasn't a problem. In fact it was absolutely brilliant. It's what we did after it that's rapidly proving to be the issue. We didn't get the next steps right, especially regarding strengthening in the right areas and getting the necessary blend of genuine experience alongside the youth, the potential and the new blood and that becomes clearer every week. Blaming getting promoted too soon is simply finding a scapegoat.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

To presume that we “ didn’t seriously need” the Prem money as opposed to 2nd season parachute payments ( 45% as we had a few seasons up there , dropping to 20% if we had a 3rd champ season ) is a touch optimistic . The “ takeover / money “ thread is best for the drilled down finances .

Another season in the champ would have certainly meant belt tightening and also probs still lost our loan crew . While that doesn’t mean necessarily a disaster, the sheer pressure and declining funds could have turned us into another plodding skint ex prem club in the champ.

I’m not presuming anything, I’m asking how someone can make a statement they think is fact without the relevant accounts being out

[Vim Fuego]

Why over think things

How about trying to win every football match we play and see where that takes us ... trying to 'time' a promotion is plain stoopid. 4 pages to try and debate that is dumb lol

Unless you enjoy nit-picking

[Nonayforever]

Getting promoted early definitely isn't a problem. Buying kids early instead of established pros is the problem.
VK didn't want Taylor, JBG & Brownhill in the Championship but he's had to realise that experience trumps potential.

[Notsosuperstevedavis]

Hasn’t this already been rebuffed numerous times though?

The documentary made it clear promotion was the target didn’t it

It Doesnt take a documentary to tell me replacing a whole squad in two windows is both problematic and financially more difficult.

[CoolClaret]

Couldn’t have picked a better time.

Utterly embarrassing if we don’t stay up given the news about Everton.

[ClaretPete001]

It Doesnt take a documentary to tell me replacing a whole squad in two windows is both problematic and financially more difficult.

As some of us constantly re-iterated last year to the point of tedium. VK always had to replace 7 to 8 of the last season's first team due to the loanees and the age of the likes of Cork, Barnes, Jay Rod and JBG.

The fact that two of those are playing and a third would likely be featured if he was still here and, in my opinion if not VKs, the fourth should also have had more minutes says much.

As has been said above Forest had to spend £150 million and it looks like we will also have to because this squad needs additions in January.

You need to spend what you need to spend in the PL. And we haven't spent it for some time: there is a reality to all this...

Did we go up a year too early? No, because likely we would have had the same issue had we not got promoted losing loan players and the age of some of the first teamers and without PL money to spend.

We had to get promoted - any other scenario is a non starter.

[kenyon6923]

would it be far fetched to say that maybe Forest and us would not have got promoted without the loan players involved ?

[Notsosuperstevedavis]

As some of us constantly re-iterated last year to the point of tedium. VK always had to replace 7 to 8 of the last season's first team due to the loanees and the age of the likes of Cork, Barnes, Jay Rod and JBG.

The fact that two of those are playing and a third would likely be featured if he was still here and, in my opinion if not VKs, the fourth should also have had more minutes says much.

As has been said above Forest had to spend £150 million and it looks like we will also have to because this squad needs additions in January.

You need to spend what you need to spend in the PL. And we haven't spent it for some time: there is a reality to all this...

Did we go up a year too early? No, because likely we would have had the same issue had we not got promoted losing loan players and the age of some of the first teamers and without PL money to spend.

We had to get promoted - any other scenario is a non starter.

I’ll be honest. Im not really sure what point you’re making.
You think we needed to go up for the finances.
I think Pace had a contingency for that.

Also: Im not really getting at a ‘from a finances point of view’

Im taking about squad size, squad age and cohesion.

Lets say we didnt go up. The loans go back and in the summer window we aim to replace the loanees.

Lets just for arguments sake, say that O’shea is THB’s replacement. He gets a season in the champ (gets a winners medal)

The knock on effect for O’ Shea is he’s better equipped for a crack at the prem and we dont do as bad when he gets his go.

Then multiply that effect by 7-10 more players.


But then crucially, he’s had a year getting upto speed in VK’s tactics and his team mates.

Then naturally, we wouldnt need to buy as many in the summer that we were to be eventually promoted.

The promoted too early is a question, I assume, in direct response to the position we find ourselves in now.

The position we are in now, has less to do with finances than it does the actual squad (and its age, experience) we have to
Complete with right now.

I’m not sure why people cant see that an extra year of building would have equipped us better to handle the prem.

[CoolClaret]

.

I’m not sure why people cant see that an extra year of building would have equipped us better to handle the prem.

We finished the season with 101 frigging points, 10 clear of the next best (and we bought their best player) and another team in the league has effectively started this year with minus 10 points.

There has never been a better time to have been promoted in recent history.

[Notsosuperstevedavis]

We finished the season with 101 frigging points, 10 clear of the next best (and we bought their best player) and another team in the league has effectively started this year with minus 10 points.

There has never been a better time to have been promoted in recent history.

I agree. Time wise its a fantastic time to get promoted. But the ability of our current squad can only be judged on the current season. Last season is gone.

This season we are floundering. Hence the argument that another season of building would have improved our chances.

I think you’re concentrating on the overall health of the club, whereas I’m looking at the question from a league position/squad available angle.

[Elizabeth]

It's never too early to get to the top.

Let's sit back and see if if this difficult start to life at the highest level is something we can overcome

It's very close to surrender for some !

[spt_claret]

I’ll be honest. Im not really sure what point you’re making.
You think we needed to go up for the finances.
I think Pace had a contingency for that.

Also: Im not really getting at a ‘from a finances point of view’

Im taking about squad size, squad age and cohesion.

Lets say we didnt go up. The loans go back and in the summer window we aim to replace the loanees.

Lets just for arguments sake, say that O’shea is THB’s replacement. He gets a season in the champ (gets a winners medal)

The knock on effect for O’ Shea is he’s better equipped for a crack at the prem and we dont do as bad when he gets his go.

Then multiply that effect by 7-10 more players.


But then crucially, he’s had a year getting upto speed in VK’s tactics and his team mates.

Then naturally, we wouldnt need to buy as many in the summer that we were to be eventually promoted.

The promoted too early is a question, I assume, in direct response to the position we find ourselves in now.

The position we are in now, has less to do with finances than it does the actual squad (and its age, experience) we have to
Complete with right now.

I’m not sure why people cant see that an extra year of building would have equipped us better to handle the prem.

Your entire point on the squad isn't how it works it assumes everything exists in some vacuum.

On finances, ignoring how sick to death I am of "if you've not see the accounts how do you KNOW YOU CANT SAY THAT" as if the concept of inferring a best guess from available info isn't a thing, there's more evidence we would have had problems without promotion than wouldn't. We already overspent by the end of last season's summer window as per mission to Burnley, stands to reason if we hadn't gone up we'd have had to sell a few players to correct that overspend.

That's another couple players to replace again on top of the loans. Not to mention players wanting away. Players like Brownhill or Taylor or Roberts may want another crack at the PL sooner than later, players like Benson or Zaroury who stood out (as presumably even in this hypothetical of not going up we still make a good go of it) might well get offers from newly promoted sides. You're not just replacing the loans you're doing a second rebuild but with a smaller budget.

Also ignoring the bizarre idea that you can sign a team that's a Championship also ran, second season refresh on less money than the first, but suddenly they're not only a team that can now storm the championship but also survive the Prem.

Also ignoring that as I said in my essay of a post on page 2 I can't see any scenario where the "buy develop sell" model doesn't benefit from a rapid return to the Prem.

[Notsosuperstevedavis]

Your entire point on the squad isn't how it works it assumes everything exists in some vacuum.

On finances, ignoring how sick to death I am of "if you've not see the accounts how do you KNOW YOU CANT SAY THAT" as if the concept of inferring a best guess from available info isn't a thing, there's more evidence we would have had problems without promotion than wouldn't. We already overspent by the end of last season's summer window as per mission to Burnley, stands to reason if we hadn't gone up we'd have had to sell a few players to correct that overspend.

That's another couple players to replace again on top of the loans. Not to mention players wanting away. Players like Brownhill or Taylor or Roberts may want another crack at the PL sooner than later, players like Benson or Zaroury who stood out (as presumably even in this hypothetical of not going up we still make a good go of it) might well get offers from newly promoted sides. You're not just replacing the loans you're doing a second rebuild but with a smaller budget.

Also ignoring the bizarre idea that you can sign a team that's a Championship also ran, second season refresh on less money than the first, but suddenly they're not only a team that can now storm the championship but also survive the Prem.

Also ignoring that as I said in my essay of a post on page 2 I can't see any scenario where the "buy develop sell" model doesn't benefit from a rapid return to the Prem.

I’ve read your post on page 2, and in the main I agree.
Get promoted as soon as possible and get the max out your investment, players and profit.

Its unanimously the best way!

The question is posed is quite vague.
Whilst you, to your credit have looked at it quite holistically,
You have failed to acknowledge that I’ve answered the question just as well as you have, but just focussed on it from a different angle.

That’s what is the most disappointing thing about your response.

There’s no arguing in my mind at least that this squad (plus theoretical summer additions, if any) would do better in the prem in 12 months time.

But we’ll never get to see that.

[ClaretPete001]

I’ll be honest. Im not really sure what point you’re making.
You think we needed to go up for the finances.
I think Pace had a contingency for that.

Also: Im not really getting at a ‘from a finances point of view’

Im taking about squad size, squad age and cohesion.

Lets say we didnt go up. The loans go back and in the summer window we aim to replace the loanees.

Lets just for arguments sake, say that O’shea is THB’s replacement. He gets a season in the champ (gets a winners medal)

The knock on effect for O’ Shea is he’s better equipped for a crack at the prem and we dont do as bad when he gets his go.

Then multiply that effect by 7-10 more players.


But then crucially, he’s had a year getting upto speed in VK’s tactics and his team mates.

Then naturally, we wouldnt need to buy as many in the summer that we were to be eventually promoted.

The promoted too early is a question, I assume, in direct response to the position we find ourselves in now.

The position we are in now, has less to do with finances than it does the actual squad (and its age, experience) we have to
Complete with right now.

I’m not sure why people cant see that an extra year of building would have equipped us better to handle the prem.

Alan Pace probably had a plan to survive as a business and to make money from his investment, which would have meant more conservative spending both last winter and this summer had we not looked likely to get promoted.

How do we replace the loan players without PL money? Remember another significant chunk would have been taken off the parachute money.

We had to go up because if we hadn't we would have been competing with the likes of Leicester and Southampton with a considerably weaker squad and less funds to spend on replacements.

Having an extra year in the Championship was a non-starter.

[Notsosuperstevedavis]

Alan Pace probably had a plan to survive as a business and to make money from his investment, which would have meant more conservative spending both last winter and this summer had we not looked likely to get promoted.

How do we replace the loan players without PL money? Remember another significant chunk would have been taken off the parachute money.

We had to go up because if we hadn't we would have been competing with the likes of Leicester and Southampton with a considerably weaker squad and less funds to spend on replacements.

Having an extra year in the Championship was a non-starter.

Completely missing the point of the question.

[spt_claret]

I’ve read your post on page 2, and in the main I agree.
Get promoted as soon as possible and get the max out your investment, players and profit.

Its unanimously the best way!

The question is posed is quite vague.
Whilst you, to your credit have looked at it quite holistically,
You have failed to acknowledge that I’ve answered the question just as well as you have, but just focussed on it from a different angle.

That’s what is the most disappointing thing about your response.

There’s no arguing in my mind at least that this squad (plus theoretical summer additions, if any) would do better in the prem in 12 months time.

But we’ll never get to see that.

Your answer doesn't work, though. My whole post was pointing out that answer doesn't add up. O'Shea spending 1 extra year in the Championship doesn;t make him better equipped for the Prem, a team that takes 2 years to go up from the Championship, and loses players due to the club model, or players wanting away, or players impressing promoted teams/relegation stragglers taking a punt, is not automatically, or in any way logically, better than one that storms it year 1. It's the same starting set of players. Going up a year later just means they've taken a year longer to get to "Championship winning" level. It's not a videogame where you can just EXP farm against lower levels before taking on the boss, a team that storms the Championship year 1 and keeps (or had the capacity to keep, if we'd made some loans permanent) all or most of its players, is not weaker than a team that takes 2 years to get promoted and likely LOSES proven PL quality or year 1 standouts because the teams that did go up come calling.

This squad would do better in the Prem in 12 months time because in 12 months time it will have spent 12 months in the Prem, not because it got promoted a year too early from the league below. For every player who needs that extra year's development in the Championship you'll have 1 who doesn't learn anything from playing at that level and another who's a standout that gets an offer from a promoted team and leaves. You're operating in a vacuum, a theory that exists in theory only, not the reality of football.

People can't simultaneously claim that the gulf between the Championship and Prem is so vast in quality, that of course the team that racked up over 100 points and walked the Championship is now on 4 points and doing awful (even though Luton are managing)....but also that an extra year of playing in what is apparently a league miles below standard (and logically, the team therefore spent 1 year of only being at that low standard, and then faces another summer of potential departures and on a reduced budget for incomings to improve this hypothetical mediocre Championship side) is somehow going to blood them perfectly to survive the Premier League. A team that easily wins the Championship is logically further ahead in its development than one that finishes 6-8th, taking 1 extra year to get up to speed in the Championship is 1 extra year for players to leave and 1 extra year of lower-level growth (A player good enough to walk the league at 21 vs a player good enough to walk it at 22 might only seem marginal but one suggests a higher ceiling). There's no such thing as getting promoted too early if you win the league with over 100 points, a flukey playoff scrabble would have room for that argument as it'd give cues as to the players' actual level of development but a team capable of the season we had last year gains nothing spending another year in the Championship.

[dougcollins]

would it be far fetched to say that maybe Forest and us would not have got promoted without the loan players involved ?

Fulham.

[Notsosuperstevedavis]

How no one can see that 12 months of preparing the squad to play the VK way and actually being 12 months older doesnt do better.
This side when 12 months older and wiser does better in the prem than the side we’re viewing right now.
Doesnt matter if you dont think O Shea gets better playing in Champ, he gets more used to playing with his team mates.

And Im done explaining myself on it.