Euro 2024

[claretskeith]

Also Foden... Just not doing it for me, he's keeping everything simple and not offering a threat. I'd give Gordon a go. Palmer has also looked good when he comes on.

I guess we don't all see the game the same.
Foden clearly makes us tick. He played well yesterday. It's no coincidence in the first half especially yesterday we dominated the middle of the park and kept possession well.
When he was out on the left in other games we struggled to keep hold of the ball in the middle.

A key player for us most certainly.

[equinox]

Or being brave enough to leave them out for the good of the team, like Sir Alf Ramsay and Greavsie?

That didn’t turn out too badly.

How do you know Greaves wouldn't have scored four in that World Cup final?

[Darthlaw]

How do you know Greaves wouldn't have scored four in that World Cup final?

He might have but Sir Alf went with the best for the team and the rest is history.

[mkmel]

Didn't Jimmy Greaves have shin splints so wasn't fit to play?

[Rileybobs]

Until we reach decent opposition, then we lose - As I’ve illustrated.

Just looking at Southgate’s point of knockout in tournaments, in isolation, is like suggesting David Nugent is an excellent striker because he had a goal a game record for England.

Another pertinent fact; tournaments won - 0, Which puts him on the same as every other England manager bar Sir Alf.

Your first point isn’t true though. Unless you think Switzerland aren’t decent opposition?

Obviously if you were to use a simplistic metric like tournaments won, when as a nation we’ve won one in our history, then Southgate would be on par with every other manager bar Ramsay. But I don’t think people are stupid enough to do this.

If we win 2 more games Southgate will be the undisputed most successful manager England have ever had. If this transpires will you agree with this statement, and if not, how would you justify disagreeing?

[RVclaret]

Yet again, Southgate has been bailed out be individual brilliance - the team has gotten this far in spite of his setup/tactics, not because of them.

A bit like ‘Don Carlo’ then

[equinox]

Didn't Jimmy Greaves have shin splints so wasn't fit to play?

I think he was available for the final, might be wrong.

[Darthlaw]

If we win 2 more games Southgate will be the undisputed most successful manager England have ever had. If this transpires will you agree with this statement, and if not, how would you justify disagreeing?

Well, if, if, if, if, if comes off - it’ll be hard to deny Southgate has been successful if somewhat lucky. As for ‘undisputed most successful manager ever’ that’s still Ramsay, both for the fact he won a World Cup and knocking out the Argies, Portugal and Germany along the way.

No amount of smashing Panama, Iran or drawing with Scotland or Slovenia will change that.

[Darthlaw]

I think he was available for the final, might be wrong.

Famously was available for the final and missed out on a medal till the mid 00’s as a result.

[Rileybobs]

Well, if, if, if, if, if comes off - it’ll be hard to deny Southgate has been successful if somewhat lucky. As for ‘undisputed most successful manager ever’ that’s still Ramsay, both for the fact he won a World Cup and knocking out the Argies, Portugal and Germany along the way.

No amount of smashing Panama, Iran or drawing with Scotland or Slovenia will change that.

Well this perfectly illustrates my previous points, thanks.

[CoolClaret]

Your first point isn’t true though. Unless you think Switzerland aren’t decent opposition?

Obviously if you were to use a simplistic metric like tournaments won, when as a nation we’ve won one in our history, then Southgate would be on par with every other manager bar Ramsay. But I don’t think people are stupid enough to do this.

If we win 2 more games Southgate will be the undisputed most successful manager England have ever had. If this transpires will you agree with this statement, and if not, how would you justify disagreeing?

How is silverware won a simplistic metric?

I think it's fair to say that Gareth has had some real fortunate draws whilst being England boss... If one side of the tournament has significantly stronger sides than the other and we scrape through to the latter stages before ultimately bouncing out, I don't see the difference in doing the exact same but at an earlier stage to top opposition... You're gonna have to play them at some point or another!

I do believe the standard in world football is at a low. I think the players are extremely robotic and in a game that's now dominated by data, lack the creativity of teams from even 10 years ago.

[CoolClaret]

A bit like ‘Don Carlo’ then

Ha, not quite!

Little bit different setting up in a very fluid system, playing players in their best positions that compliment one another and giving them creative freedom vs the robotic crap we saw last night.

[Darthlaw]

Well this perfectly illustrates my previous points, thanks.

And mine, that you get upset by facts. I tip my hat to you, too.

[Rileybobs]

How is silverware won a simplistic metric?

I think it's fair to say that Gareth has had some real fortunate draws whilst being England boss... If one side of the tournament has significantly stronger sides than the other and we scrape through to the latter stages before ultimately bouncing out, I don't see the difference in doing the exact same but at an earlier stage to top opposition... You're gonna have to play them at some point or another!

I do believe the standard in world football is at a low. I think the players are extremely robotic and in a game that's now dominated by data, lack the creativity of teams from even 10 years ago.

Well it’s simplistic because we’ve only won one piece of silverware ever - so we can use different metrics and achievements to separate other managers. Unless you think that Harry Potts is Burnley’s best ever manager and every other manager in our history has been no more or less successful than the rest.

As for the standard. I think it’s probably at an all time high, but as a result the entertainment suffers as teams are more robotic, leas creative and make very few mistakes.

There’s also an element of romancing about the past as everything was more fun when you were younger.

[RVclaret]

Ha, not quite!

Little bit different setting up in a very fluid system, playing players in their best positions that compliment one another and giving them creative freedom vs the robotic crap we saw last night.

Madrid under him get outplayed yet seem to always win and score in key moments when it looks like going against them. Champs League final recently case in point. Did no better than Dyche at Everton.

[Rileybobs]

And mine, that you get upset by facts. I tip my hat to you, too.

I’m not upset, but if you want to continue with your childish digs go ahead.

[RVclaret]

Passing network from last night is interesting

Trippier’s position (imagine Shaw instead) & Kane the two worrying elements, but aside from that, a far more balanced structure, which it did feel like when watching.

[Darthlaw]

I’m not upset, but if you want to continue with your childish digs go ahead.

It’s interesting you’ve interpreted an observation as a dig, which is where this all started (Granted, maybe not as factual as England beating lesser opposition).

You do seem upset by any insinuation that Southgate isnt getting the full ability out of his players, though.

[Rileybobs]

It’s interesting you’ve interpreted an observation as a dig, which is where this all started (Granted, maybe not as factual as England beating lesser opposition).

You do seem upset by any insinuation that Southgate isnt getting the full ability out of his players, though.

You’ve said that the facts hurt my feelings and that I get upset by facts. Like I said, pointless childish digs which make engaging with you any further a waste of my time.

[CoolClaret]

Well it’s simplistic because we’ve only won one piece of silverware ever - so we can use different metrics and achievements to separate other managers. Unless you think that Harry Potts is Burnley’s best ever manager and every other manager in our history has been no more or less successful than the rest.

As for the standard. I think it’s probably at an all time high, but as a result the entertainment suffers as teams are more robotic, leas creative and make very few mistakes.

There’s also an element of romancing about the past as everything was more fun when you were younger.

I think the real smart analysis is to look at the context of what happened in the crunch games against teams of an equal standing and that for me is where Southgate, Germany aside in 2021, has come up short.

League football is different to tournament football as well - success for a club (especially a club of our size) is absolutely quantified differently than England as a footballing nation entering tournaments.

I really don't believe the standard is at an all time high at all.

How do you think this England team would fair against either of these two sides?

Looking at all time, top players there packed throughout either side. Pirlo would stroll past Declan Rice as though he's not even playing.
Over analysis and the misuse of data is killing the game.

[CoolClaret]

Passing network from last night is interesting

Trippier’s position (imagine Shaw instead) & Kane the two worrying elements, but aside from that, a far more balanced structure, which it did feel like when watching.

yet what happens when both of those at further up either side of the pitch gets the ball high and wide? Or who is making the runs in behind in central?

It's crap mate sorry. I could be wrong here and no doubt if we make it past the Netherlands and somehow beat Spain in the final then feel free to laugh at me but try that against Spain and we will lose - comfortably.

[Sproggy]

I will have absolutely no problem at all acknowledging Southgate as the most successful England manager ever if we win this tournament. Just so long as he ***** off into the sunset with his winner's medal.

Edit : .... and is never considered as manager for Burnley.

[Darthlaw]

You’ve said that the facts hurt my feelings and that I get upset by facts. Like I said, pointless childish digs which make engaging with you any further a waste of my time.

Fair play, I’ve given my reasons why I disagree with your points and you withdraw. I’ve put the facts out and strangely this has upset you to the extent of accusing me of childish digs.

You don’t engage by all means but don’t dress it up as being my issue.

[expoultryboy]

Coolclaret : I like the 3 players battling for the same position - Jude/Foden/Bellingham. Is it his brother at Sunderland ? . For me Kane was the biggest weaklink last night. Far tooo static , and his positioning when Saka put the crosses in was shocking. Not once did he move to the front post to get ahead of his defender.

[Darthlaw]

I could be wrong here and no doubt if we make it past the Netherlands and somehow beat Spain in the final then feel free to laugh at me but try that against Spain and we will lose - comfortably.

I could see us nicking a result against Holland but I think we’ll get massacred v Spain, playing as we are (assuming they get to the final).

[RVclaret]

yet what happens when both of those at further up either side of the pitch gets the ball high and wide? Or who is making the runs in behind in central?

It's crap mate sorry. I could be wrong here and no doubt if we make it past the Netherlands and somehow beat Spain in the final then feel free to laugh at me but try that against Spain and we will lose - comfortably.

Ideally you want Bellingham doing some of that like he does for Madrid? It worked because we stopped a decent Switzerland team from playing like they did against Italy. Press was better, wide overloads were better… feel there’s another gear to go up into though and perhaps Shaw’s reintroduction will help that. Kane looks unfit but it’s a seriously tough decision if you want to drop the captain, most experienced player, country top scorer, top Prem scorer and current European golden boot winner.

[daveisaclaret]

It's a little funny that some people have painted themselves into a corner where they won't be happy if we win the Euro because of how much they're against Southgate.

[CoolClaret]

Coolclaret : I like the 3 players battling for the same position - Jude/Foden/Bellingham. Is it his brother at Sunderland ? . For me Kane was the biggest weaklink last night. Far tooo static , and his positioning when Saka put the crosses in was shocking. Not once did he move to the front post to get ahead of his defender.

This is half the point I'm getting at though - Kane just isn't that type of player and hasn't been for a while.

His best work is dropping deep and linking play as his long range passing/through balls are, along with Trent, the best in the side.

So if you play him you absolutely have to have either:

- A more mobile, physical strike partner (two up top) playing him as a deep lying forward/second striker OR

- Two athletic, inside forwards/wingers and play more like a 'false 9' - akin to Bobby Firmino's role at Liverpool

He will never attack the box like you want from a traditional number 9, but he will link play and make himself available for pullbacks at the edge of the box - and he's one of the best at hitting those first time shots.

Having him play right now with Foden and Bellingham all together is daft. Southgate is having three players try and work that all like to occupy and do their best work in the same area of the pitch - to add to this he also had two 'wrong footed' wingbacks that wanted to cut inside with no one overlapping them offering natural width.

It doesn't make sense. A better team than the Swiss (who are being overrated - go through their XI, it's not that good) would have beaten England last night and that's down to the manager.

[CoolClaret]

It's a little funny that some people have painted themselves into a corner where they won't be happy if we win the Euro because of how much they're against Southgate.

Not at all - I'd be over the moon if we won! The point I (and others) are trying to make is that if we do make it that far then I fear that the reoccurring theme will happen once again....

[RVclaret]

It doesn't make sense. A better team than the Swiss (who are being overrated - go through their XI, it's not that good) would have beaten England last night and that's down to the manager.

Firstly, Switzerland beat Italy (dominated in fact) and drew with a decent Germany team. Second, it’s completely speculative and based on nothing because tactics would likely change, big game players may step up their levels and yeah, just a whole bunch of other variables.

[CoolClaret]

Ideally you want Bellingham doing some of that like he does for Madrid? It worked because we stopped a decent Switzerland team from playing like they did against Italy. Press was better, wide overloads were better… feel there’s another gear to go up into though and perhaps Shaw’s reintroduction will help that. Kane looks unfit but it’s a seriously tough decision if you want to drop the captain, most experienced player, country top scorer, top Prem scorer and current European golden boot winner.

I do believe Shaw's reintroduction will massively help - agreed.

Yes you do want Bellingham doing that work just as he does for Madrid but it's worth mentioning why he can do that for Madrid and that is because he has Vinicius and Rodrygo who can quite literally take the top of a defence at a moments notice giving him the space to get to work.

When we have Kane dropping in, with Foden and Bellingham all playing in similar areas it gets too congested and one dimensional.

We would have looked much better with Gordon on the left, or Rashford if he'd have taken him.

The best we've played for me under Southgate was the 2020 Euros (in 2021), when Kane dropped deeper feeding Sterling and Saka running in behind. The only problem being there is he didn't change it in the final but the overall play was much better and the side was far more balanced.

[claretskeith]

We must have an awful lot of Scottish Blackburn Rovers fans on here.

[Spijed]

It's a little funny that some people have painted themselves into a corner where they won't be happy if we win the Euro because of how much they're against Southgate.

Wales showed how easy it was to get a Euro semi final with a poor manager and squad.

[daveisaclaret]

Wales showed how easy it was to get a Euro semi final with a poor manager and squad.

If it's easy why had we only ever been in two semi finals before Southgate took over?

[CoolClaret]

If it's easy why had we only ever been in two semi finals before Southgate took over?

The Euros has been pretty heavily diluted in recent times - look at Euro 96, just 4 groups compared with the 6 of today... If you happen to get a favourable draw, the route to the semis/finals is way easier than it was in the past.

World Cup slightly different but in 2018 we beat Colombia and Sweden in the knockouts before Croatia knocked us out in the semis, then in 2022 beat Senegal before France knocked us out in the quarters.

[Rileybobs]

The Euros has been pretty heavily diluted in recent times - look at Euro 96, just 4 groups compared with the 6 of today... If you happen to get a favourable draw, the route to the semis/finals is way easier than it was in the past.

How can that be? There is an extra knockout game to win.

[CoolClaret]

How can that be? There is an extra knockout game to win.

More diluted, get a favourable draw (which we undoubtedly have been given in recent multiple tournaments) and you've got a fairly 'straightforward' route to the semis.

[Rileybobs]

More diluted, get a favourable draw (which we undoubtedly have been given in recent multiple tournaments) and you've got a fairly 'straightforward' route to the semis.

But with a tournament of 16 you could get a favourable draw and only have one knockout game to win to reach the semis. The final 8 should be the same quality regardless of whether there are 16, 24 or 32 teams, the only difference being a last 16 tie, which is an additional game to win. So it is undoubtedly more difficult to reach the semis or final in the current format.

[Big Vinny K]

I’m just wondering what it must be like watching your club team and your national team and firstly not enjoying it at all and secondly thinking you know more than the manager.

My guess would be that’s it’s not very enjoyable at all. I always thought watching sport was supposed to be something you enjoyed doing ? I also thought it was one of those optional type things where you could choose something else to do with your spare time.

[CoolClaret]

But with a tournament of 16 you could get a favourable draw and only have one knockout game to win to reach the semis. The final 8 should be the same quality regardless of whether there are 16, 24 or 32 teams, the only difference being a last 16 tie, which is an additional game to win. So it is undoubtedly more difficult to reach the semis or final in the current format.

Not necessarily, the more teams in groups, third places advancing etc, somewhat weakens the average 'calibre' of team if you will. Even in the group stages, with their being more teams it's easier to top/come second in your respective group.

I’m just wondering what it must be like watching your club team and your national team and firstly not enjoying it at all and secondly thinking you know more than the manager.

My guess would be that’s it’s not very enjoyable at all. I always thought watching sport was supposed to be something you enjoyed doing ? I also thought it was one of those optional type things where you could choose something else to do with your spare time.

You often do this (hypocritical) thing where you decide what becomes a barometer of being acceptable to post about whatever current sporting event is on.

It's of course fine for you to air your grievances and thoughts but if you somehow dislike the other poster that is doing so, you decide to ignore the substance of their posts and turn it into this childish ad hominems.

Just a casual Sunday discussing the game on a ...checks notes... football messageboard.

Football isn't rocket science. I'm not sat here telling NASA or Space X that I think they're wrong in their prep/selection of their astronauts.
I've seen enough games, seen enough of this England side and the players play to know that the current setup isn't getting the most out of their collective ability.

If someone thinks I am wrong and that it is then by all means please tell why I am wrong.

[Big Vinny K]

Firstly I hardly ever post on here anymore and haven’t for months.
Not sure why you often take things so personally - my comment was directed towards a number of posters. I’ve already put a post on explaining what I think about Southgate and how hard it is to win these tournaments

But you crack on. I won’t be responding.

[Rileybobs]

Not necessarily, the more teams in groups, third places advancing etc, somewhat weakens the average 'calibre' of team if you will. Even in the group stages, with their being more teams it's easier to top/come second in your respective group.

Come on CC. Having more teams in the tournament no doubt dilutes the overall quality of the tournament, and it makes the group stage more of a formality, but it absolutely does not make it easier to make it to a semi or a final. Which of the following scenarios is an easier route to the final;

A
Switzerland
Netherlands

Or B
Slovakia
Switzerland
Netherlands

[taio]

I’m just wondering what it must be like watching your club team and your national team and firstly not enjoying it at all and secondly thinking you know more than the manager.

My guess would be that’s it’s not very enjoyable at all. I always thought watching sport was supposed to be something you enjoyed doing ? I also thought it was one of those optional type things where you could choose something else to do with your spare time.

It can be frustrating watching your club or national team. There were many times last season when it was a tough an unenjoyable watch at Turf Moor. Similarly, watching England has been difficult to watch in the last four games. I go to games, or watch games on the tele, hoping it will be enjoyable but, of course, I don't know whether it will be beforehand. I do have the option to do something else if I'm not enjoying it, which I occasionally opt to do.

Do you think those who believe Southgate shouldn't be playing Trippier on the left, should have made better and more proactive subs, and is too risk averse might have a point?

[CoolClaret]

It's not as straight forward as you're trying to make out, hoenstly.

Netherlands qualified from third and played the winner of Group E (an 'additional group' vs older tournaments). Group E was a pretty poor group.

Qualifying is easier, and there's more teams in the tournament.

Gareth has undoubtedly done his job throughout qualifying and even in the group stages of all tournaments but I fear, just like before, that his poor selections and in game management will cost England when it matters the most - rendering all else just semantics.

[daveisaclaret]

The Euros has been pretty heavily diluted in recent times - look at Euro 96, just 4 groups compared with the 6 of today... If you happen to get a favourable draw, the route to the semis/finals is way easier than it was in the past.

World Cup slightly different but in 2018 we beat Colombia and Sweden in the knockouts before Croatia knocked us out in the semis, then in 2022 beat Senegal before France knocked us out in the quarters.

Don't really buy this to be honest. The tournament has been diluted but winning a quarter final hasn't become any easier. It's still roughly the 8 best teams playing each other. We've won two quarter finals under Southgate and two before that (and only one of those two was actually at the tournament).

It's not good luck to get a favourable draw either, it's a result of being ranked in the top 5 in the world and winning the group.

[NottsClaret]

Southgate has been a bit lucky. Lucky with the squads he’s had available compared to some previous managers and somewhat fortunate in the draws at major finals although he does control that to an extent by grinding through in 1st place.

He has actually gone backwards recently. He was decent in 2018 and very good for following year as we looked almost vibrant at times with an exciting, expansive young team.. thinking of the 3-2 in Spain.

This tournament- ok, we’re in the semis- has been his worst by a distance. Yeah it’s a results business but he’s not worked out a formation yet, he won’t drop Kane regardless (he’s almost our Ronaldo now, and not in a good way) and the football is absolutely turgid.

Still gets knighted if he wins his next two matches.

[Hipper]

I've only managed to watch one half of each of England's matches so far in this tournament, so dreadful have they been to watch, until yesterday when I was happy to watch the whole match. It was a much better performance against a Swiss team that has impressed me. Mainoo was a revelation. Our only real failing was not creating enough chances. Our crossing was awful - the low ones could be put down to good Swiss defending but the over hit high ones were just plain poor.

I agree about Kane. Surely we have better. When I saw the U-21s last season winning whatever trophy it was with Trafford, Gordon was the outstanding player and he was playing quite a free role up front in the middle. I suppose it's too late to experiment but that is what we need, mobility and energy in that position with a much better instinct for goal then Kane seems to have these days (remember when it was a shock when a Kane shot was not on target. Those days are gone).

I don't think The Netherlands are better then the Swiss. They do seem to create a lot of chances but miss most of them

[equinox]

I'm going to cross the divide here I suppose, I'm very much pro Southgate but he has to deal with this Kane issue, these are the big calls.

[kentonclaret]

I suppose it's too late to experiment but that is what we need, mobility and energy in that position with a much better instinct for goal then Kane seems to have these days (remember when it was a shock when a Kane shot was not on target. Those days are gone).

Harry Kane won the Golden Shoe for top marksman in Europe scoring 36 goals for Bayern Munich. If he has lost his instincts as a goal scorer then it has happened in the past couple of weeks.
I agree that the role that he has been playing for England doesn’t seem to suit his style of play nor that of the England team to be honest.
That said I wouldn’t completely write him off as a goal scorer in this coming season if Bayern continue to play to his strengths.

[Dyched]

The Euros has been pretty heavily diluted in recent times - look at Euro 96, just 4 groups compared with the 6 of today... If you happen to get a favourable draw, the route to the semis/finals is way easier than it was in the past.

World Cup slightly different but in 2018 we beat Colombia and Sweden in the knockouts before Croatia knocked us out in the semis, then in 2022 beat Senegal before France knocked us out in the quarters.

Yeah but England haven’t won sanything since 66.

Going off the same rules as most on here saying he’s “lucky” with the draws.

There’s been several teams that have played England and gone on to win the tournament. Why aren’t they classed as “lucky”.