Facial Recognition System at Turf

[what now !]

i for one am in favour of it, imagine for a minute we play Everton again and those 'supporters' who we were in the JH upper causing issues are on the facial recog database and they are denied entry at the turnstile, i think most people would be happy with that !! also if there is any issues around safety, then faces of people of interest can be put into the system to keep you safe. also , someone mentioned earlier people trying to access who are on banning orders , they are on these orders for a reason and if it means they stay away and comply with the order of the court then thats a win as well. when you look at the benefits for law abiding citizens it becomes a bit easier to win the civil liberties argument

[Dyched]

i for one am in favour of it, imagine for a minute we play Everton again and those 'supporters' who we were in the JH upper causing issues are on the facial recog database and they are denied entry at the turnstile, i think most people would be happy with that !! also if there is any issues around safety, then faces of people of interest can be put into the system to keep you safe. also , someone mentioned earlier people trying to access who are on banning orders , they are on these orders for a reason and if it means they stay away and comply with the order of the court then thats a win as well. when you look at the benefits for law abiding citizens it becomes a bit easier to win the civil liberties argument

Not to mention those that bring illegal class A drugs into a stadium where young children are present.

[Loyalclaret]

As you've read the full transcript, which 99% of people who have posted on this thread won't have done, did it say whether this is definitely happening or a possibility that is being discussed?

Acccording to the last line, possibility and they have discussed with relevant 3rd parties.
This was from the Sept meeting, section on EDI & Safeguarding stewards:
"FAB: Will this activation be pushed on men’s and women’s fixtures that weekend in
March?

Director of Fan Experience: That’s a very good point, and there is intent to explore that.
The biggest takeaway is that this will be something that is being put forth by the Club off the back of the discussions that took place within the FAB meetings regarding safety concerns for female supporters. Everyone at the Club is committed to improving the overall safety and comfort of all supporters on matchday and in this case, we specifically want our female supporters to feel protected at home and away
fixtures.

FAB: I have spoken to FAB Members from other Clubs and It’s nice to see that other Clubs are also willing to educate their fans as we all make this journey together of expanding this message.

Chairman: We will attempt to make this conversation as loud and public as possible.

Head of HR / ED&I Lead: We had a report of inappropriate behaviour towards a female
supporter at a recent fixture. Initially, she was not going to report it, but a male staff member introduced her to the process and encouraged her to come forward. This is
a further example of how impactful the support these findings have been.

FAB: If we don’t achieve anything else with these actions, it’s nice to see the way our Club has responded to this matter.

Director of Fan Experience: I believe that the visibility of safety stewards in every concourse is of high importance to the Club, and we want to ensure that every supporter feels safe in these areas. Additionally, there is CCTV in place throughout the ground and concourses, and there will be stewards present in these. The Club holds a
zero-tolerance approach to this kind of conduct.

FAB: A key takeaway from this is that I feel that particularly the men here were oblivious to all the things that have been going on with female supporters. I feel the Club should be commended for the action you all have taken to respond to this immediately and have tried to improve the safety and security of supporters.

Director of Fan Experience: An ongoing theme from female victims who have come forward so far, is that they say, “This is just how football is”. Unfortunately, that reflects a degree of acceptance that we must change. It is not okay for any woman or girl to feel unsafe at Turf Moor.

FAB: It has become normalised behaviour!
Director of Fan Experience: Correct. It may have become a normalised behaviour, but that’s the narrative we have to change.

FAB: We (female supporters) have to take responsibility for that as well, and we know that. We have a responsibility to the generations that come behind us to stop that and prevent that normalisation. It’s on all of us, not just one individual.

Chairman: I would add to the point previously presented that many of us had no idea, and that stretches into ownership at many Clubs. I’ve had discussions with other owners, and they are equally horrified.

FAB: And I think it’s the fact that it was highlighted here (Burnley FAB), and it has led to this widespread discussion which is significant.

Chairman: I can’t imagine that we’re an isolated incident.

FAB: Definitely not, it is probably worse at away games than it is at home games.

FAB: I think the statement, “It’s just football” shows what we’re up against. It’s not just football.

FAB: It’s not just football, it's gigs, its festivals, its train stations, and anywhere opportunities present themselves.

Director of Fan Experience: As we discussed in our previous meeting, it is for these exact reasons that the Club intends to implement facial recognition at Turf Moor to further improve the safety, experience, and well-being of all supporters on the day. We’re confident that by taking the lead on this other Clubs will follow and look to start their own discussion and implementation as well.

Chief Technical Officer: I would like to say that no stone will be left unturned regarding this matter. I am leading out on this, and we’ve sat down with the necessary third
parties that we would need to utilise for guidance on the best practice in how to make our ground as safe as possible."

[Guppyspotter]

In what sense?

Not sure if you are joking. Manchester Arena type incidents. If you put images on a database of people of concern (there is a surprisingly high number)
then you can quickly and efficiently pick them up using facial recognition and hopefully keep large crowds safe.

[stateofthenation]

1) what exactly is the outcome that needs addressing?

2) what evidence is available to suggest facial recognition can affect the outcome of concern?

[Leisure]

i for one am in favour of it, imagine for a minute we play Everton again and those 'supporters' who we were in the JH upper causing issues are on the facial recog database and they are denied entry at the turnstile, i think most people would be happy with that !! also if there is any issues around safety, then faces of people of interest can be put into the system to keep you safe. also , someone mentioned earlier people trying to access who are on banning orders , they are on these orders for a reason and if it means they stay away and comply with the order of the court then thats a win as well. when you look at the benefits for law abiding citizens it becomes a bit easier to win the civil liberties argument

I'm unclear as to which organisation will have this 'facial recog database'?

[hoosier-daddy]

I used a passport facial recognition scanner at the airport and it didn't recognise me. I was chuffed to bits!

[Cirrus_Minor]

Maybe it's to identify those who enter the toilets via the exit door.

[Leisure]

Maybe it's to identify those who enter the toilets via the exit door.

Or buy all the pies before halftime!

[stateofthenation]

Notes from the FAB meeting. It’s in the section relating to women’s safety at games:

What exactly are the issue/s that women are facing when attending games at turf moor?

[TheFamilyCat]

What exactly are the issue/s that women are facing when attending games at turf moor?

They are being heavily sedated and left vulnerable by all the sideways passing. Police say it is a bigger danger than being spiked in clubs.

[bfcjg]

Screenshot_20241031_195756_eBay.jpg (466.55 KiB) Viewed 3080 times

I might re-identify.

[stateofthenation]

As this is only being suggested by Pace and not Lancs Police, maybe the Fan Advisory Board could ask him some questions at their next meeting?

How much will it cost?

Will any of the data be sold onto 3rd parties?

Will the club use the data to market its own merchandise etc at the fan base?

It’s pretty much a given that it will be sold to 3rd parties no matter what rhetoric given to justify it.

Until I see any evidence to the contrary it looks to me another clear example of ‘surveillance capitalism’.

See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance_capitalism

Not sure we want to be ‘leaders’ in this area: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-61550776

[Leisure]

It’s pretty much a given that it will be sold to 3rd parties no matter what rhetoric given to justify it.

Until I see any evidence to the contrary it looks to me another clear example of ‘surveillance capitalism’.

See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance_capitalism

Not sure we want to be ‘leaders’ in this area: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-61550776

I'm still confused by this? What could be sold to 3rd parties? How will the club get facial photos of fans to use in the facial recognition equipment?

[bfcjg]

We need to buy thousands of these and confuse the technology, the AI will basically sum it up as not only one of ,if not the best ever Burnley managers but also the most virile.

3241_Sean_Dyche.jpg (27.37 KiB) Viewed 2922 times

[Loyalclaret]

I'm still confused by this? What could be sold to 3rd parties? How will the club get facial photos of fans to use in the facial recognition equipment?

You could imagine it being part of the season ticket renewal process.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I’ve now reflected on this and due to the civil liberties angle it feels like exactly the sort of thing that should be in the remit of a regulator but probably won’t be.

It feels a bit like that old TV Programme Person Of Interest (or the film Enemy Of The State) where our name will flash up on a screen above the head of a person filmed. Easy to film a seat with a name assigned and say “this person is probably Mr J Bloggs” if they sit in that seat multiple times, or record someone scanned on entry. That kind of recording of “innocents” is where I would draw the line. I applaud the original sentiments (ensure women and girls enjoy and feel safe) but it is also something where the downside / dystopian angle is easy to envisage. Do we trust the club to get this right, keep us all safe, and keep our law abiding civil liberties protected, if they cannot even ensure we get good food or drink?

I also worry that we have an “addiction” of attending our football team, it isn’t just a consumer choice, it is a lifeblood. So if the terms and conditions of ground entry are changed in a major way, this will get accepted by fans against their better judgement, and that to me feels like a regulator issue (but as I say, won’t be).

[Leisure]

You could imagine it being part of the season ticket renewal process.

But that wouldn't work for casual fans and away supporters. Also it's hard enough just getting a basic ST sent to your present address, never adding a photo to the process!!

[NottsClaret]

There's not a chance in hell our club would be able to competently implement something like this. It's only a few months since they copied over the wrong address database. If you can't use Excel or the postal service to a basic level, it's a bit of a leap to installing facial recognition technology.

Sounds like someone's had a very good sales guy in and convinced them it's what we need. Once we're safely re-established as a steady away 2nd division club, there's no chance we're spending money on this.

[daveisaclaret]

The compentency of the club isn't just about data protection. It's what happens when you get kicked out of a match because someone who looks like you has been a naughty boy, too.

[RMutt]

Where would the database of faces needed come from? I can’t imagine the police or government services sharing them with BFC.
If they build up their own it would be tiny I would imagine and not worth the cost of implementation.

[daveisaclaret]

Where would the database of faces needed come from? I can’t imagine the police or government services sharing them with BFC.
If they build up their own it would be tiny I would imagine and not worth the cost of implementation.

It's still not clear why they want to do it but I suspect they do have access via police/government to pictures of anyone with a football banning order

[RMutt]

It's still not clear why they want to do it but I suspect they do have access via police/government to pictures of anyone with a football banning order

I’d always assumed the police did all that themselves. Do you think they would hand that responsibility over to football clubs?

[Loyalclaret]

I’d always assumed the police did all that themselves. Do you think they would hand that responsibility over to football clubs?

The club have them as well. They usually come with a club ban and some have season ticket.

[RMutt]

The club have them as well. They usually come with a club ban and some have season ticket.

Thanks for that. I presume we only have the ones for ‘our’ bans? Or do we have them all? Any idea of numbers?

[Loyalclaret]

They will only have Burnley fans, guestimate below 50 proper banning orders, probably late 30's. Club 'life time' bans are over 100 but they have allowed people to appeal in recent years.

Very few people break the court issued bans.

[aggi]

I’ve now reflected on this and due to the civil liberties angle it feels like exactly the sort of thing that should be in the remit of a regulator but probably won’t be.

It's very much in the remit of the Information Commissioner's Office.

Plenty of poor implementations that they have acted on.

[RMutt]

They will only have Burnley fans, guestimate below 50 proper banning orders, probably late 30's. Club 'life time' bans are over 100 but they have allowed people to appeal in recent years.

Very few people break the court issued bans.

Thanks again. Doesn’t seem worth the trouble and expense for that purpose then.

[AlargeClaret]

That “FAB” member sounds more like she’s on some ideological mission ? ranting on about women being “ in danger “ at matches ? I mess asn seriously ? and also public transport , trains , festivals etc . Of course women should feel safe at matches and let’s be honest football stadia are incredibly safe these days . I’ve no issue with the FAB but every time I see /hear them it’s almost like they’re on another planet .
Surely facial recognition will end up arresting people for hurty words ? or t1ts fanny and clarets ?

[daveisaclaret]

That “FAB” member sounds more like she’s on some ideological mission ? ranting on about women being “ in danger “ at matches ? I mess asn seriously ? and also public transport , trains , festivals etc . Of course women should feel safe at matches and let’s be honest football stadia are incredibly safe these days . I’ve no issue with the FAB but every time I see /hear them it’s almost like they’re on another planet .
Surely facial recognition will end up arresting people for hurty words ? or t1ts fanny and clarets ?

Check this man's hard drive

[stateofthenation]

I'm still confused by this? What could be sold to 3rd parties? How will the club get facial photos of fans to use in the facial recognition equipment?

As far as the club goes everyone is confused as to their motives and ultimate intentions.

However the motivation of these companies is certainly clear: https://theconversation.com/your-face-f ... ent-224643

For another quick overview of the issues see: https://www.liberties.eu/en/stories/fac ... erns/44518

[groove]

Check this man's hard drive

Ridiculous comment

[Quickenthetempo]

It's obvious that the club/owners will only install something that can make them money, not sure it would be worth the expense of purely safety?

How many arrests do we have per game? One or two?

Going back to the women feeling safe. I think you would have to make areas bigger/less crowded. Safe passing points on aisles.
But that would cost money and even the newer stadiums haven't tried to fix these issues.

[NewClaret]

What exactly are the issue/s that women are facing when attending games at turf moor?

No idea. Apparently some have been reported.

[aggi]

That “FAB” member sounds more like she’s on some ideological mission ? ranting on about women being “ in danger “ at matches ? I mess asn seriously ? and also public transport , trains , festivals etc . Of course women should feel safe at matches and let’s be honest football stadia are incredibly safe these days . I’ve no issue with the FAB but every time I see /hear them it’s almost like they’re on another planet .
Surely facial recognition will end up arresting people for hurty words ? or t1ts fanny and clarets ?

Latest installment of a bloke knowing better what it's like to be a woman than an actual woman.

Always a popular one on this board.

[Bosscat]

That “FAB” member sounds more like she’s on some ideological mission ? ranting on about women being “ in danger “ at matches ? I mess asn seriously ? and also public transport , trains , festivals etc . Of course women should feel safe at matches and let’s be honest football stadia are incredibly safe these days . I’ve no issue with the FAB but every time I see /hear them it’s almost like they’re on another planet .
Surely facial recognition will end up arresting people for hurty words ? or t1ts fanny and clarets ?

https://x.com/FreyaQuinton/status/18528 ... 14/photo/1

[Row x]

https://x.com/FreyaQuinton/status/18528 ... 14/photo/1

Disgusting behaviour, but not in the stadium where the facial recognition system will operate

[IanMcL]

They are being heavily sedated and left vulnerable by all the sideways passing. Police say it is a bigger danger than being spiked in clubs.

I think I must be vulnerable too!

[IanMcL]

Just occurred to me...

If the facial rec system doesn't recognise you, does a spotlight shine on you sat in your seat and the annoying blast out, "Who the f*****g hell are you?

Philosophical question.

[AlargeClaret]

Latest installment of a bloke knowing better what it's like to be a woman than an actual woman.

Always a popular one on this board.

Perhaps if you’d simply addressed the issue rather than your own fetishes, it would have added some value ? Not unlike said woman who refused to actually point out what actual incidents had taken place to warrant FRS.

[IanMcL]

Just occurred to me...

If the facial rec system doesn't recognise you, does a spotlight shine on you sat in your seat and the annoying TANNOY blast out, "Who the f*****g hell are you?

Philosophical question.

Tannoy got predicted into annoying! Very!

[aggi]

Perhaps if you’d simply addressed the issue rather than your own fetishes, it would have added some value ? Not unlike said woman who refused to actually point out what actual incidents had taken place to warrant FRS.

Well, your response to
We had a report of inappropriate behaviour towards a female supporter at a recent fixture.

Was

That “FAB” member sounds more like she’s on some ideological mission ?

So it doesn't really seem like addressing the issue is your top priority.

[AlargeClaret]

Well, your response to
We had a report of inappropriate behaviour towards a female supporter at a recent fixture.

Was

That “FAB” member sounds more like she’s on some ideological mission ?

So it doesn't really seem like addressing the issue is your top priority.

Have a read of what she said , much of it totally unrelated . Perhaps she’s using empirical evidence or anecdotal? maybe she’s basing off national stats within grounds ? Far as I’m aware , given the huge attendances at matches weekly in the UK , the safety of women is thankfully something which isnt recognised as an issue per se.

As opposed to say women travelling on inner city public transport/ late night etc . Personally I’ve no issues either way but FR in grounds does feel unnecessary given the cctv coverage and tech already in place . Let’s face it they can almost see what you’ve had for breakfast .

[what now !]

I'm unclear as to which organisation will have this 'facial recog database'?

each organisation ie football club, council (cctv), police force will have its own tailored for their needs ,

i would suspect that police forces and football clubs, playing each other, will share images of people they want to track,

whilst we are supposed to be the only club using it, well, that have come out publicly and said we are , it wont be long before all clubs, certainly in the top two tiers, use it. after all look at CCTV as opposed to where it was say 15 years ago.

like has been said before we are used to CCTV and its facial recognition is in all airports and probably most major shopping centres and city centres its a natural progression for it to be used by football clubs.

i recall a trial at a major music festival about 8 years ago where they had people in a database that were then tracked around the festival site, that was when the technology was in its infancy , it will have progressed massively since them , i think it may have been Leicester police that were trailing it on that occasion

[Leisure]

each organisation ie football club, council (cctv), police force will have its own tailored for their needs ,

i would suspect that police forces and football clubs, playing each other, will share images of people they want to track,

whilst we are supposed to be the only club using it, well, that have come out publicly and said we are , it wont be long before all clubs, certainly in the top two tiers, use it. after all look at CCTV as opposed to where it was say 15 years ago.

like has been said before we are used to CCTV and its facial recognition is in all airports and probably most major shopping centres and city centres its a natural progression for it to be used by football clubs.

i recall a trial at a major music festival about 8 years ago where they had people in a database that were then tracked around the festival site, that was when the technology was in its infancy , it will have progressed massively since them , i think it may have been Leicester police that were trailing it on that occasion

But how would a football club get hold of around 18000 faces?

[Bosscat]

But how would a football club get hold of around 18000 faces?

I would imagine that its not the entire crowds individual faces needed in the database, only the faces that they want to recognise. The computers do the rest and identify possible subjects.

99% of folk have nowt to worry about (unless of course you are a double for one of the hunted then its curtains, as the lasers in the rof cams will zap you and ask questions later )

[what now !]

But how would a football club get hold of around 18000 faces?

it won't need too it will only look for the faces in the database , ie people on banning orders or wanted for offences or whatever parameters they set,
most of the 18,000 wont even know they have been scanned just like with CCTV , its basically CCTV on steroids.

it will part of the conditions of entry within the terms and conditions in your ticket , like CCTV is now, so it wont affect you unless you are a person of interest and they put your face in the database and then you are recognised, think ANPR ( automatic number plate readers) but for humans instead of cars.

the trial at the festival i mentioned, i think they had 10 people they tracked and the crowd was in excess of 80,000 it didn't affect anyone's weekend but they were able to track these people throughout the weekend in dense crowds which was a good thing.

[Bosscat]

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[Spijed]

99% of folk have nowt to worry about (unless of course you are a double for one of the hunted then its curtains, as the lasers in the rof cams will zap you and ask questions later )

That's not even close to being true though. The post office scandal highlighted many people were convicted despite knowing they were innocent.

Why will this be any different when large numbers of people are involved

[Bosscat]

That's not even close to being true though. The post office scandal highlighted many people were convicted despite knowing they were innocent.

Why will this be any different when large numbers of people are involved

Of course its not true ... the facial recognition cameras don't have lasers to zap people ...

The post office scandal had nothing to do with facial recognition cameras either...