Brownhill - In or Out vs the Owls

[ClaretLoup]

Seemed to meander about to no great effect on Saturday, certainly offensively. Also the team has at least been creating a relative abundance of chances without him in it.

However he is the club's top scorer, a leading chance maker and has the most assists.
https://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/tea ... uad-stats

So if you were in Scotty's expensive trainers, what would you do on Friday vs the Owls? In or out? If in, who makes way?

[Row x]

Seemed to meander about to no great effect on Saturday, certainly offensively. Also the team has at least been creating a relative abundance of chances without him in it.

However he is the club's top scorer, a leading chance maker and has the most assists.
https://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/tea ... uad-stats

So if you were in Scotty's expensive trainers, what would you do on Friday vs the Owls? In or out? If in, who makes way?

Out.

[taio]

In - we are struggling to score and, as you say, he supplies the most goals

[mickleoverclaret]

In for Laurent and play Hannibal a bit deeper with Cullen.

[TopCat]

In, but to give him game time.
You could see how rusty he was.

[dandeclaret]

In for Laurent and play Hannibal a bit deeper with Cullen.

2 risks in this

1) Hannibal gets caught in possession given the more congested area of the pitch

2) Is he positionallybdiscilolined enough to play there? His energy is a huge benefit, but if he’s chasing around deeper, he’ll create gaps for the opposition.

Just one change for me from the weekend. Anthony moved to the left, and Marcus Edwards comes in in the right. Edwards set piece delivery is a significant upgrade as well.

[kwwden]

Playoffs is all but guaranteed now and top 2 is out. Let's go for it. Attack Attack Attack.

[Bullabill]

Is he positionallybdiscilolined enough to play there?

I don't know, I can't really say.

[dandeclaret]

Playoffs is all but guaranteed now and top 2 is out. Let's go for it. Attack Attack Attack.

Why is the top 2 out? Football results, especially on pressure situations, are not straight line extrapolation.

So much reactionary, emotional stuff on this board following what is a good away draw (they’ve lost 2 at home all season) and should have been a win with a modicum of decent finishing. Relax? Chill out, enjoy the ride….. as long as the team keeps playing well, like they have the last 4 or 5 games, they’ll
Be grand.

[dandeclaret]

I don't know, I can't really say.

I like partnering with my phone to make up new words, and random capitalisation….. positionally disciplined sounded a bit dull, so went with something cool, new and hip for the kids

[beddie]

Leave out fir now. Only because the team has been playing well albeit we still lack goals. He’ll get game time from the bench so let’s see how that goes first.

[AlargeClaret]

Surely in for Laurent ? and Shelvey spraying it around , though what to do with Hannibal ?

[kwwden]

Why is the top 2 out? Football results, especially on pressure situations, are not straight line extrapolation.

If we finish top 2 I'll give you a big sloppy kiss.

[alwaysaclaret]

Why is the top 2 out? Football results, especially on pressure situations, are not straight line extrapolation.

So much reactionary, emotional stuff on this board following what is a good away draw (they’ve lost 2 at home all season) and should have been a win with a modicum of decent finishing. Relax? Chill out, enjoy the ride….. as long as the team keeps playing well, like they have the last 4 or 5 games, they’ll
Be grand.

Problem is we've had too many should have's against teams that "we should have"
Now that the gap has opened, I just don't see Sheffield utd and Leeds being caught, and ironically it could be that Brereton turns out to be the difference.

[warksclaret]

Think Scotty shows too much loyalty-I bet he starts and if so hopefully with Hannibal and Cullen. But unless hes having a blinder and unless we are leading comfortably, I would change him for Shelvey between 50-60 minutes. If this happens the last thing I would want to see is Laurent on for Brownhill second half

[RVclaret]

In for me.

Wednesday play a back 5 so we’ll play the 4–3-3 shape that we play against back 5s, with Hannibal and Brownhill as 8s alongside Cullen the single pivot. I’d play him as the right sided 8 though and get him attacking the inner right channel like he did under VK in the same system. Edwards right wing and Anthony left.

[GetIntoEm]

Needs to start for me

[alwaysaclaret]

It's a big question, it's a case of balancing what you take away from the team if he replaces either of Hannibal or Laurent.
Hannibal gives energy, and is far better than Brownhill in tight spaces and drives forward, the thing he's missing is a goal here and there.
Laurent has physicality and also drives forward, and often breaks play up, but does also give the ball away at times. He also has a couple of goals to he's name.
Brownhill often goes missing and I'm not sure he has the passion or determination of the other two, but does have a 9 and 4 too he's name.
The obvious thing to look at in all this is if Flemming and Foster had put their chances away, at least 6 in as many games, then the answer to the Brownhill question I think would be a resounding no. I asked the question to the people around me last week against Hull how does Brownhill fit back in, we scored 2 and should have been more, however after Saturday's 0-0 this question is asked. It's a head scratcher for SP I'd say.

[DCWat]

2 risks in this

1) Hannibal gets caught in possession given the more congested area of the pitch

2) Is he positionallybdiscilolined enough to play there? His energy is a huge benefit, but if he’s chasing around deeper, he’ll create gaps for the opposition.

Just one change for me from the weekend. Anthony moved to the left, and Marcus Edwards comes in in the right. Edwards set piece delivery is a significant upgrade as well.

He can get caught in possession / play the occasional poor ball. Cullen on the other hand rarely wastes possession, even in the most congested of areas.

He’s developing as a player, but from what I’ve seen of him so far, I do think that he’s more likely to become a player that plays the deeper role as opted to one further forward.

However, I think I’d be prepared to take the risk now, if it brings more quality to our play, in the opponents half. For all Laurent’s strengths, he can be somewhat limited when it comes to progressing us up the pitch.

Our defence is more than good enough to have just Cullen in front of them, so perhaps more of a 4-1-4-1 with Anthony left and Edwards right.

If we need to get goals in a game, such as on Saturday, I’d like to see us move to a 4-4-2 and give Foster and Flemming a chance in their natural positions. Cullen / Brownhill or Cullen / Hannibal is plenty good enough against most teams in this league.

[RVclaret]

Our defence is more than good enough to have just Cullen in front of them, so perhaps more of a 4-1-4-1 with Anthony left and Edwards right.

We played this on Saturday against Preston with Laurent (right) and Hannibal (left) either side of Cullen.

[DCWat]

We played this on Saturday against Preston with Laurent (right) and Hannibal (left) either side of Cullen.

Interesting, must admit that I didn’t pick up on it as that, watching on the TV. How does that compare to Wednesday, out of interest (if you have it to hand)?

Perhaps more weight to Hannibal and Brownhill or potentially Shelvey in place of Laurent to give us the option to get quality balls into the channels.

[Murger]

No need to play 2 dm’s at home now. Wins are a must. So drop Laurent for either of JJ or Brownhill.

[RVclaret]

Interesting, must admit that I didn’t pick up on it as that, watching on the TV. How does that compare to Wednesday, out of interest (if you have it to hand)?

Perhaps more weight to Hannibal and Brownhill or potentially Shelvey in place of Laurent to give us the option to get quality balls into the channels.

Yeah, midweek, because we played against a back 4 (Hull) our shape was more 4-2-4/4-4-2/4-2-3-1. I’ve noticed it changes depending on back 4 or 5 of the opponent. Here you can clearly see Cullen and Laurent in a typical midfield 2.

[fatboy47]

Pretty futile question.

Everyone in the team is fully delivering bar the guys charged with putting it in the net...so that's what has to change.

With no obvious personnel waiting in the wings to refresh the current gameplan, surely Parker has to address the big unanswered question..ie.

""Can Flemming deliver what he was delivering at Millwall from the position he played there?""

Hence we have to go 442 with Flemming at 10 behind....well it has to be Barnes rather than Foster....not all that thrilling or pretty but Barnes has the requisite skill set to hold play up top ..to bring others in...and to put the ball in the net.

The other question to be answered is whether or not Benson can do what he did 2 years ago....we need to know this pronto.

[claretspice]

2 risks in this

1) Hannibal gets caught in possession given the more congested area of the pitch

2) Is he positionallybdiscilolined enough to play there? His energy is a huge benefit, but if he’s chasing around deeper, he’ll create gaps for the opposition.

Just one change for me from the weekend. Anthony moved to the left, and Marcus Edwards comes in in the right. Edwards set piece delivery is a significant upgrade as well.

I'd certainly start Edwards if he is match fit to do so on Friday and I completely agree about the point about his set piece delivery. That will create an interesting conundrum elsewhere because Foster has overall done well off the left recently.

As for Brownhill, I think he has to play if fully fit. He and Cullen are by some distance our best two midfielders, which is why over the course of two seasons in which they've been regulars together, I think they've only lost 3 games that they've started together. Add in Hannibal or Laurent, or even a more creative presence, and we're still not short of quality to either protect the back four or create chances, in midfield.

I'm also not sure we should get carried away with the quality of chances created on Saturday. We had an XG of precisely one. I don't think we should overuse XG, but of the chances we had - two clear ones fell to Foster, but on both occasions he had a defender to beat as well as the keeper, Anthony had a reasonable half-chance cutting in from the left, and Humphreys and Flemming got in each others way but were well offside anyway. That's about it and it reflects the statistics. We should have scored a goal, but this was not a day on which we had a surfeit of chances to win a game by a margin. We lacked bodies in the box as well as an out and out goalscoring presence and I think retaining two fundamentally holding midfielders as well as a back four all of whom are defenders first and attacking outlets second gets the balance wrong.

[mickleoverclaret]

2 risks in this

1) Hannibal gets caught in possession given the more congested area of the pitch

2) Is he positionallybdiscilolined enough to play there? His energy is a huge benefit, but if he’s chasing around deeper, he’ll create gaps for the opposition.

Just one change for me from the weekend. Anthony moved to the left, and Marcus Edwards comes in in the right. Edwards set piece delivery is a significant upgrade as well.

For me if we're not taking risks now we're resigning ourselves to the playoffs. Laurent gives us a lot off the ball and he carries it well but his passing is so poor, i'd like to get a look at what the midfield 3 i've proposed looks like. If it doesn't work or if you want to tighten up if we take the lead you can always bring Laurent on.

[blatherwickstattoos]

No need to play 2 dm’s at home now. Wins are a must. So drop Laurent for either of JJ or Brownhill.

Agree completely but no way parker changes anything formation wise

[Bowclaret]

IN and by a country mile.

Laurent is great but we need goals and Josh provides that.

Our captain and leader.

But more important is to get Edwards in this team and certainly for Foster.

[Big Vinny K]

Is he positionallybdiscilolined enough….

I bet you cheat all the time at scrabble

[dandeclaret]

For me if we're not taking risks now we're resigning ourselves to the playoffs. Laurent gives us a lot off the ball and he carries it well but his passing is so poor, i'd like to get a look at what the midfield 3 i've proposed looks like. If it doesn't work or if you want to tighten up if we take the lead you can always bring Laurent on.

We're by no means out of the promotion race. I'm completely bemused by this to be honest, it seems very defeatist - but maybe that's where we are as a fan base on the whole presently.

Taking risks has a downside as well as an upside. There's plenty right with this team and their approach, there's hugely positive signs the last few weeks, and there's a downside to losing that team spirit and togetherness, through losing the partnerships that are forming. Have to be careful the baby isn't thrown out with the bathwater here.

[RVclaret]

Agree completely but no way parker changes anything formation wise

You are commenting on a thread where someone (me) has just outlined 2 different formations we played in the last week. Parker also played an entirely different formation at Southampton. Fair enough if you don’t see it on the pitch, but when even literal screenshots are provided here, I don’t know whether it’s just a lack of ability to absorb information, ignorance or just another thing to ‘aghrrrrr Parker’ at? And the Funny thing here is our absolute dominance against Hull came with ‘2 dm’s’.

[claretspice]

We're by no means out of the promotion race. I'm completely bemused by this to be honest, it seems very defeatist - but maybe that's where we are as a fan base on the whole presently.

Taking risks has a downside as well as an upside. There's plenty right with this team and their approach, there's hugely positive signs the last few weeks, and there's a downside to losing that team spirit and togetherness, through losing the partnerships that are forming. Have to be careful the baby isn't thrown out with the bathwater here.

Bringing Brownhill in for Laurent isn't exactly a risk though. It's bringing in one of the best box-to-box midfielders in the Championship for a good, but inferior, player. If we were talking about Sarmiento, say, playing instead of Laurent then I think it'd be a different discussion.

[dandeclaret]

You are commenting on a thread where someone (me) has just outlined 2 different formations we played in the last week. Parker also played an entirely different formation at Southampton. Fair enough if you don’t see it on the pitch, but when even literal screenshots are provided here, I don’t know whether it’s just a lack of ability to absorb information, ignorance or just another thing to ‘aghrrrrr Parker’ at? And the Funny thing here is our absolute dominance against Hull came with ‘2 dm’s’.

Are they really DM's as well? Is Laurent really a DM? For me he takes the ball on the half turn, and drives through the lines. He can be a bit clumsy further up the field, but it's hardly like he just sits and screens. And Cullen whilst being a DM is regularly very high up the pitch controlling play, rather than from deep.

[dandeclaret]

Bringing Brownhill in for Laurent isn't exactly a risk though. It's bringing in one of the best box-to-box midfielders in the Championship for a good, but inferior, player. If we were talking about Sarmiento, say, playing instead of Laurent then I think it'd be a different discussion.

Laurent better technically, has the ability to take the ball on the half turn, which has unlocked many more angles for people to play into and from.

Brownhill better at arriving on to play, and getting into / completing goalscoring options, however, we aren't anywhere near as fluid on the ball with him in the side. He's not got the technique to receive the ball on the half turn, or play passes quickly.

Different players, with different pro's and cons.

[Goliath]

Are they really DM's as well? Is Laurent really a DM? For me he takes the ball on the half turn, and drives through the lines. He can be a bit clumsy further up the field, but it's hardly like he just sits and screens. And Cullen whilst being a DM is regularly very high up the pitch controlling play, rather than from deep.

He doesn't take the ball on the half turn at all. Not sure what you're watching but it's basically one of his biggest weaknesses

[Devils_Advocate]

In for Laurent and play Hannibal a bit deeper with Cullen.

Got to be this for me as I think Hannibal is a lot better on the ball in tighter situations in middle of the park whereas Brownhill is much better at making forward runs in the final third and popping up with a goal.

[FCBurnley]

Surely the in or out question should be asked about Foster and Laurent before Brownhill ?

[deanothedino]

Playoffs is all but guaranteed now and top 2 is out. Let's go for it. Attack Attack Attack.

Not understanding your logic here.

Top 2 still being in grasp is why we should go for it.

[claretspice]

Laurent better technically, has the ability to take the ball on the half turn, which has unlocked many more angles for people to play into and from.

Brownhill better at arriving on to play, and getting into / completing goalscoring options, however, we aren't anywhere near as fluid on the ball with him in the side. He's not got the technique to receive the ball on the half turn, or play passes quickly.

Different players, with different pro's and cons.

I'm not sure I agree with you about Laurent. He's not better technically for me. He takes the ball OK and carries it but his passing is inferior to Brownhill's and I'm not sure his touch is better either. Brownhill has been a mainstay for all 3 Burnley managers he's played under and that reflects that he's just a good all round midfielder. There are few better at this level.

[bfcjg]

Interesting debate, if the 3 gilt edged chances that fell to us on Saturday had of fallen to Brownhill we would have scored. I'll back Parker but we cannot drop Hannibal for him.

[FCBurnley]

Brownhill ahead of Laurent especially for home games whee we need to break down an 11 man defense

[Colburn_Claret]

In, but we need a 4 man midfield. With Brownhill forward and Hannibal defensive.
We are most creative when our midfielders have the option to carry the ball forward, or join the attack. A midfield 3 and they are all anchored to their position.

[dandeclaret]

I'm not sure I agree with you about Laurent. He's not better technically for me. He takes the ball OK and carries it but his passing is inferior to Brownhill's and I'm not sure his touch is better either. Brownhill has been a mainstay for all 3 Burnley managers he's played under and that reflects that he's just a good all round midfielder. There are few better at this level.

According to Fotmob, Brownhill's pass completion rate this season is 82.1% and Laurent's is 81.1%. About 2 passes per 90 minutes. Brownhill has created 32 chances in his 2,430 minutes, and Laurent 23 chances in 2,089 minutes (about 0.15 chances per game difference). About the same touches per game in the box, Laurent more dribbles per game (13 successful vs 8 successful for Brownhill - basically double per game given fewer minutes played)

All stats from Fotmob.

[claretspice]

According to Fotmob, Brownhill's pass completion rate this season is 82.1% and Laurent's is 81.1%. About 2 passes per 90 minutes. Brownhill has created 32 chances in his 2,430 minutes, and Laurent 23 chances in 2,089 minutes (about 0.15 chances per game difference). About the same touches per game in the box, Laurent more dribbles per game (13 successful vs 8 successful for Brownhill - basically double per game given fewer minutes played)

All stats from Fotmob.

But as you know Dan, there's a lot statistics don't tell you. They don't tell you how ambitious those passes are. They don't tell you how well weighted those passes are, or how many forced the receipient to check and come backwards to collect the ball, stymying the move.

Brownhill scores more goals (9 vs 2), gets more assists (4 vs 1) and does plenty of hard work off the ball in both attack and defence. He's just a better player. That's not a criticism of Laurent, it's an endorsement of Brownhill. Laurent wouldn't ever have got in a Championship team under Kompany because he's not technically at the necessary level. Brownhill was one of Kompany's first names on the team sheet.

[Stonehouse]

Laurent contributes loads more than Brownhill,he must be the most overrated captain we’ve had at Burnley for years,when was the last time he controlled the game like Cullen or brought energy to the team like Hannibal does ,ok he’s scored a few goals and he always tends to score a few in the first half of the season but if Cullen gets the right protection alongside him he’s good enough for the Premier League ,Brownhill nowhere near good enough apart from being a good guy,and I’m sure if Parker and Pace had rated so high they’d have given him a new contract by now.

[morninbob]

He doesn't take the ball on the half turn at all. Not sure what you're watching but it's basically one of his biggest weaknesses

This. The amount of times CJ or Steve give him the ball with time and space and he gives it them straight back

[mickleoverclaret]

We're by no means out of the promotion race. I'm completely bemused by this to be honest, it seems very defeatist - but maybe that's where we are as a fan base on the whole presently.

Taking risks has a downside as well as an upside. There's plenty right with this team and their approach, there's hugely positive signs the last few weeks, and there's a downside to losing that team spirit and togetherness, through losing the partnerships that are forming. Have to be careful the baby isn't thrown out with the bathwater here.

I'm not suggesting we're out of the promotion race, i'm suggesting we take more risks so that we don't drop out of it. We're losing ground at the minute because we don't score enough goals- I don't think a tweak in midfield with a view to becoming a better offensive team is likely to tank team spirit or togetherness.

[dvalley69]

Out.

[Vegas Claret]

Edwards in, Shelvey in, from the start.

[dandeclaret]

But as you know Dan, there's a lot statistics don't tell you. They don't tell you how ambitious those passes are. They don't tell you how well weighted those passes are, or how many forced the receipient to check and come backwards to collect the ball, stymying the move.

Brownhill scores more goals (9 vs 2), gets more assists (4 vs 1) and does plenty of hard work off the ball in both attack and defence. He's just a better player. That's not a criticism of Laurent, it's an endorsement of Brownhill. Laurent wouldn't ever have got in a Championship team under Kompany because he's not technically at the necessary level. Brownhill was one of Kompany's first names on the team sheet.

There are plenty that stats don't tell you. But given there's a lot that's subjective, and people seem to want to use stats like XG as a standalone, I was trying to paint a picture. Hence, chances created, as probably the best proxy for ambitious passes, pass completion for the best proxy for passing accuracy.

As for Laurent getting into a Kompany side or not, that's pure conjecture. Brownhill was in as much for his athleticism, to allow for the high press as anything, and they're both athletically capable of that. How many did Brownhill create or score under Kompany?