Parker’s subs.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Tue Feb 18, 2025 2:04 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:54 pm
Against Portsmouth and Norwich we were losing. I have never said he won't change things when we are losing, only when we are drawing. Swansea was the one game out of 12 when we were drawing 0-0 and went on to win, though I'm not sure what he changed that made the Swansea man decide to stick his arm in the air and give us a penalty.
Right, so you are claiming if Parker goes 1-0 down an wed equalise in the 63rd minute (like Pompey) or the 68th minute (like Norwich) he will then go on to try and win, but if we haven't gone behind in a game and it is 0-0 after 75 minutes he won't want to win and will hope for a draw ?

That is some reach, probably easier just to say you don't like him.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Greenmile » Tue Feb 18, 2025 2:07 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:54 pm
….Swansea was the one game out of 12 when we were drawing 0-0 and went on to win….
I’m pretty sure there have been 17 league games when we were drawing 0-0 and went on to win :)

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Rileybobs » Tue Feb 18, 2025 2:48 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:35 pm
It's undoubtedly true that Parker is happy to settle for a point if it's 0-0 at 75 minutes. If he wasn't, he would do something different instead of going for the tried-and-tested way of drawing 0-0.
It’s not undoubtedly true. In fact I’d say it’s undoubtedly untrue. And the 75 minute figure is completely arbitrary. Parker reiterated numerous times after the Preston match how disappointed he and the team were with the result. He also made substitutions in an attempt to affect the result.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Rileybobs » Tue Feb 18, 2025 2:48 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 2:07 pm
I’m pretty sure there have been 17 league games when we were drawing 0-0 and went on to win :)
Yes but not after the completely arbitrary 75 minute mark.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by claretcarrot93 » Tue Feb 18, 2025 2:48 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:15 pm
I'm sure Parker has considered it. In fact I'm sure he's looked at it on the training pitch. Perhaps he doesn't like the fact that it will place more defensive responsibilities on our wide forwards and therefore make us even less of a goal threat. Perhaps he doesn't like the fact that it will give us less control of the midfield. Perhaps he doesn't think Flemming and Foster are suited to those specific roles.

Leeds United only play one centre forward to the best of my knowledge and don't get many 0-0's. Like I say, people are looking for very simple solutions that don't exist.

The roles they have both played their entire career?

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by dsr » Tue Feb 18, 2025 3:09 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 2:48 pm
It’s not undoubtedly true. In fact I’d say it’s undoubtedly untrue. And the 75 minute figure is completely arbitrary. Parker reiterated numerous times after the Preston match how disappointed he and the team were with the result. He also made substitutions in an attempt to affect the result.
If there is a way of analysing performance over the last few minutes of a game, without choosing an arbitrary time figure, I'd be happy to hear it.

I know Parker is disappointed, but he has a squad of very good players at this level. Time after time after time, we fail to score in the first 75 minutes of a game, and if we are level he will not change the system and we play out the rest of the game still without scoring. He knows that by not changing the system we are likely to draw 0-0, 11 times out of 12 so far, and yet he persists in doing it. If he is not happy with the results, why doesn't he try something different?
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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by claretcarrot93 » Tue Feb 18, 2025 3:17 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 3:09 pm
If there is a way of analysing performance over the last few minutes of a game, without choosing an arbitrary time figure, I'd be happy to hear it.

I know Parker is disappointed, but he has a squad of very good players at this level. Time after time after time, we fail to score in the first 75 minutes of a game, and if we are level he will not change the system and we play out the rest of the game still without scoring. He knows that by not changing the system we are likely to draw 0-0, 11 times out of 12 so far, and yet he persists in doing it. If he is not happy with the results, why doesn't he try something different?
Its a fair question and Parker has done a lot of good stuff so no idea why folk all getting defensive about questioning his changes in games we keep drawing 0-0 in.
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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by claretspice » Tue Feb 18, 2025 3:37 pm

I think there is a point about substitutions and the extent to which we're we're willing to try and be a bit more expansive to try and win games.

Firstly, the analogy with the way Leeds set up doesn't really hold. They play a very aggressive and clearly defined 4-2-3-1, with two full backs who push very high, a defined number 10 who presses high but is primarily a creative outlet, and then a front 3. Whilst our set up is sometimes written as 4-2-3-1, it is really a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with a pretty orthodox back four and three orthodox central midfielders generally. We adopt more of a mid-block out of possession with our wide players dropping right in defensively and we aren't as aggressive in trying to dominate a game. In short, whilst we both play with a single central striker, our system is altogether more conservative than Leeds'. Debate the rights and wrongs of that, but it is what it is.

Secondly, I can't see that any change to a front 2 at any point during a game would result in our wide players doing more defending. We already adopt a very clear 442 shape out of possession with the wide forwards tucking back in alongside the two holding midfielders and the most advanced midfielder becoming the second striker. We don't do what the likes of Liverpool do (and what we often did 2 years ago) and ask a midfielder to cover one of the wide forwards out of possession at least early in an opposition attack. Arguably, I think we should do this more (and in fairness, against Hull at times Hannibal and Foster did swap).

Ultimately, Parker's changes are pretty safe. The last time he made changes that made the team more expansive was away at Norwich in early December. That happens to be the last time we went behind and the two things are linked. Since then we've drawn 0-0 with Stoke, Portsmouth and Preston in winnable games, and we also drew 0-0 with Derby immediately before the Norwich game - and in all those games the substitutions have been like for like and we haven't.

When Flemming signed, it seemed intuitive that we'd look to use Flemming as a number 10 with Foster ahead of him. That looked to get the best out of both - it deployed Flemming in the position he made his name in and was familiar with, whilst Foster has generally looked like a centre forward who benefits from having a bit more licence to roam wide in his movement because someone else (i.e. Flemming) is providing a focal point - Flemming's physicality and willingness to play with his back to goal seemed to make him an ideal 10 to compliment Foster. I can understand the logic of not starting in that set up, but it's decidedly odd that in games where we're expecting to win and we've been struggling for a break through, we've never tried it. It felt like an option on Saturday (because Preston had a clear back 5 and Flemming was struggling against 3 centre backs) but even after Foster came off, the option of dropping Flemming back one and bringing Barnes on appeared logical (particularly as we went increasingly direct given the state of the pitch).

Parker will undoubtedly have good reasons for his caution, but I'm not convinced it's helping us get the points we need to keep in touch with the top 2. 9 years ago, Sean Dyche kept faith with Ben Mee at left back and Michael Duff at centre half for longer than most supporters thought made sense, and indeed dropping Duff for Steven Ward then prompted a huge upturn in form.
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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Darnhill Claret » Tue Feb 18, 2025 4:17 pm

We were drawing every game 0-0 and won 17 out of 33.
If you can't win, make sure you don't lose, draw the game 14 out of 33

Just 2 defeats.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by CoolClaret » Tue Feb 18, 2025 4:45 pm

claretspice wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 3:37 pm
When Flemming signed, it seemed intuitive that we'd look to use Flemming as a number 10 with Foster ahead of him. That looked to get the best out of both - it deployed Flemming in the position he made his name in and was familiar with, whilst Foster has generally looked like a centre forward who benefits from having a bit more licence to roam wide in his movement because someone else (i.e. Flemming) is providing a focal point - Flemming's physicality and willingness to play with his back to goal seemed to make him an ideal 10 to compliment Foster. I can understand the logic of not starting in that set up, but it's decidedly odd that in games where we're expecting to win and we've been struggling for a break through, we've never tried it. It felt like an option on Saturday (because Preston had a clear back 5 and Flemming was struggling against 3 centre backs) but even after Foster came off, the option of dropping Flemming back one and bringing Barnes on appeared logical (particularly as we went increasingly direct given the state of the pitch).
This shows how bastardised the term '10' has become.

'Physicality and willingness to play with his back to goal seemed to make him an ideal 10'?... Second stiker/deep-lying stiker, yes, but we must have a very different understanding of what a '10' is.

I think Parker wants someone in that position who is nimble and can dribble - an archetype player would be Gibbs-White. Striker is more in the trad #9 mould.

I agree that a more direct approach might have been warranted on Saturday. However, it's misguided to suggest that playing Foster as a central striker with Fleming (or any other player) supporting behind him is going to drastically change things.

Foster scored 1 goal in 11 apps for us in the 22/23 season (ok not all 90 min apps) 22/23, 5/24 in the Prem (benefitting playing teams that gave us a ton of space), 1 league goal for us this season and his overall career record suggests he's a 1 in 5-6 type of player.
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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by claretspice » Tue Feb 18, 2025 5:04 pm

CoolClaret wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 4:45 pm
This shows how bastardised the term '10' has become.

'Physicality and willingness to play with his back to goal seemed to make him an ideal 10'?... Second stiker/deep-lying stiker, yes, but we must have a very different understanding of what a '10' is.

I think Parker wants someone in that position who is nimble and can dribble - an archetype player would be Gibbs-White. Striker is more in the trad #9 mould.

I agree that a more direct approach might have been warranted on Saturday. However, it's misguided to suggest that playing Foster as a central striker with Fleming (or any other player) supporting behind him is going to drastically change things.

Foster scored 1 goal in 11 apps for us in the 22/23 season (ok not all 90 min apps) 22/23, 5/24 in the Prem (benefitting playing teams that gave us a ton of space), 1 league goal for us this season and his overall career record suggests he's a 1 in 5-6 type of player.
Number 10 isn't a term that has got bastardised, it refers to any player who might have worn "10" traditionally. Teddy Sheringham was a 10 and seems to me a reasonable proxy for how we might use Flemming behind Foster. Now there is a separate question about whether Foster is as big a threat as we need from a number 9 - but that is a separate debate. But Parker himself has said that Flemming's natural position is as a number 10 - he might be quite a physically imposing version of a 10, but he's still a 10. Of course, that would allow you to move another player out wide so even if there is a question about Foster as a goalscorer, it allows the team to get an additional forward player on the park.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by CoolClaret » Tue Feb 18, 2025 5:22 pm

claretspice wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 5:04 pm
Number 10 isn't a term that has got bastardised, it refers to any player who might have worn "10" traditionally. Teddy Sheringham was a 10 and seems to me a reasonable proxy for how we might use Flemming behind Foster. Now there is a separate question about whether Foster is as big a threat as we need from a number 9 - but that is a separate debate. But Parker himself has said that Flemming's natural position is as a number 10 - he might be quite a physically imposing version of a 10, but he's still a 10. Of course, that would allow you to move another player out wide so even if there is a question about Foster as a goalscorer, it allows the team to get an additional forward player on the park.
When we talk about the archetypical '10', we're talking about the classic playmaking position, right?

Little bit different in English football, and it's only really in the modern age where the media in England/we have started calling roles as a '6' / '8' / etc

In the formation/system that SP utilises, I do not think he sees Flemming as someone to play that role and I don't think he's suited to it either.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by ksrclaret » Tue Feb 18, 2025 5:41 pm

That's a cracking post Spice, and it sums up the situation far more elegantly than any other on here.

The theory of playing Flemming as 10 and Foster just ahead is a valid one if the aim is for us to become more aggressive and front-footed. I struggle to imagine Parker giving it a go though.

I think a more likely route for Parker to set the team up with more attacking intent might be to switch to a 3 man central defence, like we played at Southampton. On the rare occasions we've been chasing games, Parker has often opted for a switch to a 3 man central defence, usually with Anthony deployed as a wing back, and it's worked pretty well. I think Flemming up front with two of Edwards, Foster, and Sarmiento either side of him would allow us to get more players beyond the striker on more occasions. We've clearly spent time in training working on that shape.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by claretspice » Tue Feb 18, 2025 6:44 pm

CoolClaret wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 5:22 pm
When we talk about the archetypical '10', we're talking about the classic playmaking position, right?

Little bit different in English football, and it's only really in the modern age where the media in England/we have started calling roles as a '6' / '8' / etc

In the formation/system that SP utilises, I do not think he sees Flemming as someone to play that role and I don't think he's suited to it either.
We're getting caught up in semantics. We're talking about someone who is a natural 'link man' who is best playing behind someone who leads the line/ stretches the game, and just in front of two orthodox midfielders. There are lots of ways of playing the role - Blake, Ings, Rodriguez under Dyche, Sheringham, Bergkamp, keep going - but the principle remains. You may be right that Parker prefers a different sort of 10 (Sarmiento) but the fact remains it is Flemming's preferred role, the one he made his name playing in Holland (not exactly a backwards country when it comes to this particular role) and for Millwall. The balance with Foster seemed to make sense on paper but we've never used it.

Of course it's a version of 4231 closer to a 442 than a 433, and that may well be why Parker doesn't want to start in that set up. But this is a discussion about options to change the game so this misses the point. I think it's odd that particularly since Foster returned from injury we haven't tried it as a change option to break a stubborn game.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by claretspice » Tue Feb 18, 2025 7:22 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2025 5:41 pm
That's a cracking post Spice, and it sums up the situation far more elegantly than any other on here.

The theory of playing Flemming as 10 and Foster just ahead is a valid one if the aim is for us to become more aggressive and front-footed. I struggle to imagine Parker giving it a go though.

I think a more likely route for Parker to set the team up with more attacking intent might be to switch to a 3 man central defence, like we played at Southampton. On the rare occasions we've been chasing games, Parker has often opted for a switch to a 3 man central defence, usually with Anthony deployed as a wing back, and it's worked pretty well. I think Flemming up front with two of Edwards, Foster, and Sarmiento either side of him would allow us to get more players beyond the striker on more occasions. We've clearly spent time in training working on that shape.
Interestingly at Bournemouth Parker played with Billing as a link man behind Solanke - not unlike the set up might be with Foster and Flemming. As i understand it, that worked for Bournemouth at least in part because it helped Solanke establish himself as a genuine number 9 by taking some of load of linking play off him.

That said I don't disagree with you about a back 3 and had Parker shifted Anthony to wing back and matched up 343 I don't think anyone would have complained on Saturday. It'd just a different way to get an extra forward on the pitch.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Ampth7 » Tue Feb 18, 2025 7:43 pm

I do think that Parker has a decision to make - stick or twist time, and personally I think it’s about time we tried Foster as a 9 with Flemming as a 10, both of which are their natural positions and allows us to get an extra attacker on the pitch. Edwards off the right, Anthony/Kole off the left, Cullen and Brownhill in midfield.

Sticking with the same setup is highly likely to lead to more bore draws, which we simply cannot afford, so why not go for it? Play offs are all but secured, and it would be such a shame if we finish the season in 3rd place having conceded 14 goals all season but with 18 0-0 draws!

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by ElectroClaret » Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:51 pm

Certainly got it right tonight, particularly Brownhill
coming on.

Transformed things.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by TPClaret » Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:58 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:51 pm
Certainly got it right tonight, particularly Brownhill
coming on.

Transformed things.
Foster miles better as a striker in the middle

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by warksclaret » Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:02 pm

Big problem for Parker next league game-who does he start with

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Vegas Claret » Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:05 pm

Made them early enough and they were positive despite us leading, really happy to see that from him.
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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by MDWat » Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:11 pm

Outstanding subs tonight.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by ElectroClaret » Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:16 pm

warksclaret wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:02 pm
Big problem for Parker next league game-who does he start with
Brownhill to start for me, looked really lively.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:21 pm

Good show from him tonight.

If he'd had made them at Preston and other games, then we wouldn't be playing catch up now.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by dvalley69 » Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:28 pm

Perfect game for Brownhill to come on to tonight as Sheff Weds left plenty of gaps open for him to exploit, and how well he did. Their tracking of midfield runners was awful all game, highlighted by the first goal with Edwards, who got behind his marker to receive Cullen's pass. Even Roberts was left totally unmarked for his goal.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by dvalley69 » Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:29 pm

Bin Ont Turf wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:21 pm
Good show from him tonight.

If he'd had made them at Preston and other games, then we wouldn't be playing catch up now.
You do realise he brought Brownhill on at PNE? And he did absolute jack. SP's fault, obviously! :roll:

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Dark Cloud » Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:51 pm

Right subs, right time. But then again, that's a seriously talented bench!!

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by woody » Fri Feb 21, 2025 11:58 pm

Bin Ont Turf wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:21 pm
Good show from him tonight.

If he'd had made them at Preston and other games, then we wouldn't be playing catch up now.
Oh my god some people will moan about anything. The subs were spot on tonight and maybe haven’t been every game. Are you perfect every day?

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Darnhill Claret » Sat Feb 22, 2025 12:30 am

Some people will moan about anything, like Parker's subs.

The moaners just go off the final result. If we win, the subs we're brilliant.
If we don't win, they were rubbish and that also makes Parkers tactics negative.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Feb 22, 2025 1:19 am

Spot on tonight. But the change in attitude after the half time break was more important. We pressed higher, defended higher and played with much more freedom - there was much less structure and rigidity in attack and we were so much better for it. Roberts popping up on the goal line and Benson scoring from the opposite flank being prime examples. Obviously it’s easier to play with freedom when we’re 2 or 3 goals ahead, but this should be the norm going forward.

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Re: Parker’s subs.

Post by Goliath » Sat Feb 22, 2025 1:25 am

Subs were right, but that's also partly because the starting 11 was wrong. Foster should be in the side and Laurent over both Brownhill or Shelvey is absolute madness. I really hope that was due to fitness concerns of the other 2 or it's a bit worrying.

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