ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

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NewClaret
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Mon Mar 03, 2025 8:54 am

CharlieinNewMexico wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 8:20 am
No offense, but everything you post is conjecture

“It could very reasonably be argued” is just opinion 🤷🤷🤷
To be fair, it’s a well reasoned assumption he is making here.

Anthony, Humphreys, Flemming and Edwards will cost a combined £40m and that money will have to come from somewhere, although I doubt the year one payments will be more than £10-£15m which may be manageable with premier league cash. We also have Amdouni to sell potentially, which could cover half of that.

It’s pretty simple logic that if you have a higher income you can take higher debt. What has impressed me is that we’ve demonstrated (twice now) that we will deleverage on relegation.

By CP’s calcs a £26-£50m debt reduction is both significant and impressive.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by CharlieinNewMexico » Mon Mar 03, 2025 9:06 am

Is not “well reasoned assumption” the same as “it could very reasonably be argued that”

In other words, no one has a clue

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Big Vinny K » Mon Mar 03, 2025 9:57 am

Servicing debt is not about higher revenue it’s about higher profit. Yes in the normal commercial world achieving increased revenue has a good chance of increasing profit. But football is different - increased revenue by getting promoted often means that this is just swallowed up in wages and transfer commitments. Especially when there is little change in the non tv commercial revenue as we have seen at Burnley.

The model we have now is in my view not good for the supporters. As soon as you are loaded with debt and the conditions and costs of debt - plus a much weaker cash flow position and the conditions and costs of that (factoring costs etc) then this is why we end up with a massive turnover of players. That for me is not enjoyable - you keep hold of your favourite players for far less time and you end up with a lot more failures in the transfer market too than we are used to as a club.

Eventually you don’t go back up and things will get a lot worse.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:06 am

CharlieinNewMexico wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 8:20 am
No offense, but everything you post is conjecture

“It could very reasonably be argued” is just opinion 🤷🤷🤷
It's a detailed and considered opinion based on extensive reading of all available information, and there is quite a lot of information available. If this sort of detailed analysis were to be dismissed as conjecture, then there would be no point discussing anything.

Besides, the bulk of it is not conjecture. It is legal documents filed at Companies House by Burnley FC and by Pace's companies.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Claretnick » Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:30 am

So to cut a long story short it's a case of when we go bust not IF.
In the meantime all we can do is sit and watch it all unfold because apart from increasing commercial turnover ie fans spending more money there's not a lot we can do.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Big Vinny K » Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:38 am

NewClaret wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 8:54 am


….a £26-£50m debt reduction is both significant and impressive.
What do you find impressive about having to sell all of our best players each season in order to meet the commitments of loan arrangements and satisfy a bunch of owners who are not prepared to put their own money in to the club ?

Parker is doing pretty well (better than pretty well probably) with the hand he was dealt but look at the team and performances this season and compare them to the last few years. It’s getting worse year by year under these owners. Decisions like keeping Jay, bringing Barnes back, the lack of striking options, the reduced amounts we are paying for players, the loan deals….they are all a direct consequence of the debt having to be serviced.

What do you think is going to happen if we do not go up next season ? Will paying off that debt be “impressive” to you without Esteve, Trafford, Brownhill, Roberts, CJ, and possibly having to send back the like of Edwards, Antony, Humphreys etc ?

We then enter the season of Russian roulette where we have our last parachute payment and the owners have to decide whether they raise the funds needed to mount a promotion challenge or not. Though to be honest the parachute money by this point might just cover the wages we have on the players that are left and not even playing - Tresor, Ramsay, Beyer etc.

It’s a long way from the model of keeping the nucleus of your team and signing the likes of Tarks, Michael Keane, Andre Gray etc to go for promotion again.

And whilst this might sound a tad pessimistic I accept !!….to me it very much looks like the reality and trajectory we are on as a club with these owners and the way they run the club.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:21 pm

As far as I understand it the £40 million just relates to the debt lodged with a Finance house. The club has found lots of innovative ways to generate debt that are really only seen through the prism of the Financial Accounts.

I doubt whether they have reduced debt because they need playing assets on the pitch and while there is a chance of 3 to 4 years of broadcast revenue in the PL there is no point reducing debt. If a debt strategy is part of your business model....!

It would be stupid reducing debt and not buying a striker because even £40 million would be hard to manage in the Championship but we all know the creditors are likely to be around £150 to £200 million at best.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:33 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:38 am
What do you find impressive about having to sell all of our best players each season in order to meet the commitments of loan arrangements and satisfy a bunch of owners who are not prepared to put their own money in to the club ?

Parker is doing pretty well (better than pretty well probably) with the hand he was dealt but look at the team and performances this season and compare them to the last few years. It’s getting worse year by year under these owners. Decisions like keeping Jay, bringing Barnes back, the lack of striking options, the reduced amounts we are paying for players, the loan deals….they are all a direct consequence of the debt having to be serviced.

What do you think is going to happen if we do not go up next season ? Will paying off that debt be “impressive” to you without Esteve, Trafford, Brownhill, Roberts, CJ, and possibly having to send back the like of Edwards, Antony, Humphreys etc ?

We then enter the season of Russian roulette where we have our last parachute payment and the owners have to decide whether they raise the funds needed to mount a promotion challenge or not. Though to be honest the parachute money by this point might just cover the wages we have on the players that are left and not even playing - Tresor, Ramsay, Beyer etc.

It’s a long way from the model of keeping the nucleus of your team and signing the likes of Tarks, Michael Keane, Andre Gray etc to go for promotion again.

And whilst this might sound a tad pessimistic I accept !!….to me it very much looks like the reality and trajectory we are on as a club with these owners and the way they run the club.
So my point about finding that level of debt reduction impressive is distinct and separate to my views on the role debt plays in our business model.

It’s impressive because using CP’s figure it has potentially more than halved. It’s also pleasing because there was of course a risk that any player trading income was siphoned up to shareholders and not used to pay down debt.

With Amdouni to sell (€20m), Trafford and Esteve on the books, I am more comfortable with that level of debt.

Not that I like debt of any kind and I personally think football clubs should be considered community assets and leveraged takeovers should be banned so you’re preaching to the converted there.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:49 pm

GetIntoEm wrote:
Sun Mar 02, 2025 8:04 pm
Yes, do you not? Why do you think they are in it for anything other than to make profit? To make profit they need to clear the debt. Not sure why they would do otherwise
Unless your owners have huge amounts of wealth then there is an argument that a club should be operating with a reasonable amount of debt and using that to progress (i.e. asset purchases rather than working capital).

I would be surprised if clearing debt was a priority at the moment and I would expect us to have a level of debt until, at the very least, we've consolidated in the Premier League for a few years.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by BleedingClaret » Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:51 pm

Row x wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 7:52 am
Good, bad or indifferent, time will tell

The question is if they hadn't bought the club, who else would have done? And where would we be now, we had an aging squad, with no sign of real investment in the team, so we could have over 100 million in the bank, but mid table in league one
On takeover we were in the Premier League
We’re currently in the Championship

We had 60mil in the bank, that we now don’t have.

We had no debt of note, we now have 40 mil debt at least

The Turf and Gawthorpe were owned, as they are now, but not being used as security on a loan

We had a squad that had survived 5 years and counting in the Premier League, that needed investment to maintain that, but I would argue that it was better and worth more than the current squad.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by CoolClaret » Mon Mar 03, 2025 2:52 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:38 am
It’s a long way from the model of keeping the nucleus of your team and signing the likes of Tarks, Michael Keane, Andre Gray etc to go for promotion again.

And whilst this might sound a tad pessimistic I accept !!….to me it very much looks like the reality and trajectory we are on as a club with these owners and the way they run the club.
Yup - said this from the off.

Scary how much we've spent, still owe, and the general quality of players that are coming in* vs what we have had

The squad as a collective is absolutely nowhere near what it was 5 years ago.

*obviously not all have been misses, signed some very good players as well (Berge, Esteve etc)
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Goliath » Mon Mar 03, 2025 2:57 pm

CoolClaret wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 2:52 pm
Yup - said this from the off.

Scary how much we've spent, still owe, and the general quality of players that are coming in* vs what we have had

The squad as a collective is absolutely nowhere near what it was 5 years ago.

*obviously not all have been misses, signed some very good players as well (Berge, Esteve etc)
It amazes me that people don't see it. Even 2 seasons we had 2 quality players at least in basically every position bar maybe full back. Now we have a decent (not outstanding) 14 ish players then a steep drop off. With at least 3 of them pretty sure to be off if we don't go up (probably 5 including Brownhill and Roberts).

We then have to replace 5 starters that were signed when we had premier league money, with ever diminishing revenues and the threat of losing our parachute payments if we don't go up.
We either take a huge gamble or accept we are a Championship club now and cut our cloth accordingly every season more and more, with gates getting smaller and smaller each year. It's a hell of a position the board will be put in if we don't go up and it's largely self inflicted
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Row x » Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:19 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:51 pm
On takeover we were in the Premier League
We’re currently in the Championship

We had 60mil in the bank, that we now don’t have.

We had no debt of note, we now have 40 mil debt at least

The Turf and Gawthorpe were owned, as they are now, but not being used as security on a loan

We had a squad that had survived 5 years and counting in the Premier League, that needed investment to maintain that, but I would argue that it was better and worth more than the current squad.
Had we not sold, we'd probably have over 100m in the bank, because it wouldn't have been invested in the aging squad, but it's a pretty good bet we'd be a league one club.
I recently listened to an interview with Dyche, who said to survive we needed to invest 3 seasons prior to the takeover

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by BleedingClaret » Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:41 pm

Row x wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:19 pm
Had we not sold, we'd probably have over 100m in the bank, because it wouldn't have been invested in the aging squad, but it's a pretty good bet we'd be a league one club.
I recently listened to an interview with Dyche, who said to survive we needed to invest 3 seasons prior to the takeover
I agree that we needed to invest every penny that we earned in the Premier League on the playing squad and the facilities to comply with the Premier League demands and to have a chance of staying up.
Eventually we would go down and I think with the residue of the Premier League squads & Parachute payments we would have a fair chance of getting back up.
I don’t think we’d be in League 1 but I think eventually we’d be a Blackburn/Preston standard team again and would settle into Championship mediocracy flirting with the play offs and relegation from one season to another, likely not good enough to go up or bad enough to go down without good or bad luck.

If we don’t go up this year then I think we are unable to manage debt the team is not good enough to go up next year and season upon season we will get weaker.

How will we ever pay the debt off without losing land?

Hopefully we go up or then I see the route to League 1

And I’m a glass half full type

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by billyhamilton82 » Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:59 pm

CharlieinNewMexico wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 8:20 am
No offense, but everything you post is conjecture

“It could very reasonably be argued” is just opinion 🤷🤷🤷

I vowed to myself I wouldn't look at this thread again due to the ridiculous assumptions argued by those "in the know" but my curiosity got the better of me when it popped back to the top .....again.

I have realised it was a mistake with yet more self proclaimed nothingness based on well....nothing.

I hope this doesn't come across as being rude because that is not my intention, I just feel Alan Pace deserves more credit and don't understand this constant attempt to suggest things aren't above board or not being done in the best interests of BFC.

I have tried previouly to add some balance but its a difficult job when it seems some are out for "Pace blood" for reasons I cannot fathom.

268 Pages of at best, opinion or at worst attempting to undermine the owners by "suggesting" they aren't doing things correctly according to a few on here who believe they know better.

Five years on and 268 pages later all I can tell from reading between the lines is that 2 confirmation statements were late @ £34 each.

I could understand this thread if the Venkys were in charge, but come on.

It proves that having a small amount of knowledge or a limited understanding of something can lead to misguided beliefs and others will follow hoping for some ITK info.

I'm sure the egos on here won't be able to resist ripping this post apart in order to back up their argument but I can confirm there is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary in the way the club is being managed.

In fact IMO they are doing a damned good job in very trying circumstances.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Mar 03, 2025 5:14 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Mar 02, 2025 11:55 am
The thing we are never likely to a a very definite answer for is whether all this financial bouncing around has actually been of overall benefit for the club. All of the following occurred whilst the club pulled in over £200m of revenues that did not include player trading

Essentially if the new capital debt balance is £40m, then it is slightly more than the £39.7m of mid November 2022, which was somewhat more than the £32.3m balance of late August 2022 (the difference potentially being the early repayment penalty to MSD and possible the loan fee for the November 2022 loan - of course the club had already paid MSD £20m in enforced repayments on relegation, a further £12.7m in voluntary early repayment (presumably with an early redemption penalty) and at least £11m in interest

That £39.7m loan was supposedly reduced to around £33m by April 2023 so a £6m-£7m capital repayment not forgetting the interest of around £1.7m by the time the loan was replaced by one for £70m in June 2023 that required between 12.5% and 13.2% in annual interest and contained a capital repayment plan - It is worth noting that the annual interest was roughly aligned to the new expected match day incomes following the price increases.

Alongside that loan was a factoring deal over 3 years of Premier League revenues (based on 1 year of Prem money and two years of parachute payments) that too carries a lost revenue value in the accounts (and yes I know it has less of a cash impact because of inflation).

So good were those June 2023 deals that they were replaced again in January 2024 with a new loan of an as yet undeclared value (probable early redemption penalties and also new loan arrangement fees) also because of the nature of the new lender the factoring deal had to be paid up early via a loan from the new lender that would require further interest payments on a sum that had already seem and upfront charge when first factored.

To get to a £40m capital debt balance with a 4th new lender 26 months will have required a net debt repayment of somewhere £26m - £50m (depending on the overall loan balance, for which we can only give a range estimate), probable early redemption penalties (we still don't know if relegation triggered enforced capital repayments) and interest payments of between £7.5 £10.5m. Not to mention the likely loan fee with Fasanara Capital and the brokers who set it up.

Those are all tangible costs - though we are unlikely to ever know the true total of them/ Some may argue that the profits on player trading have made up for that - we may never know that answer either, because the actual cash flow from sales is a drip feed not a sudden influx.

Not that all the additional borrowed monies went on player recruitment - Promotion in May 2023 meant that Calder Vale Holdings borrowed circa £9.1m to make the final bonus payment to the original 7 director sellers, players and coaches likely received somewhat more and facility upgrades were required to meet newly revised Premier League requirements.

There is also the intangible cost to factor in - the club became a lot more unstable as an entity, particularly on the playing side, which led to what we now know to a deeply divided and unsettled playing and coaching staff. The impact on the town and fanbase has also to be factored in. Even BFC in the Community saw it's funding alter in 3 different seasons, which has had a direct impact on what it is able to do and who it is able to employ (the club provides little in cash terms for it - the majority of it's funding comes from the Premier League and other sources.

1 - it is looking that way

2 - Actually yes they do. but there are ways to do that which would mean they don't have to dip into their own pockets to do so. Also there is no timeframe as to when it has to be done and of course no interest to be paid on it. With inflation, the true value of the debt is diminishing all the time (that is why it is standard practice to pay interest on loans)

3 - It is possible to sell the club with it's capital debt intact - it is the club's debt after all. Some arrangement would have to be made over the £124.07m they owed the club - it would be factored into the selling price. My reckoning is that the ALK/VSL ownership group have a net £60m or so in share spend (after the flip to Vladimir Torgovnick), that is the net number they are looking to exceed in any return from a sale for their 90% shareholding. It would be entirely possible for a new owner to buy Velocity Capital (UK) Holding Ltd and still hold the £124.7m debt there, they would also have the opportunity to enforce the purchase of the shares from all other shareholders.

What theoretically makes that interesting from a cash buyers perspective is that they could buy 100% of the club relatively cheaply and have the opportunity to provide an influx of cash into the club via a future loan repayment from VCUKHL. Of course, the previous owners spent 7 years looking for such a cash buyer, they are thin on the ground for a club such as ours


It could be very reasonably argued that the probable current state of debt is merely a holding position that can be rapidly changed if promotion does come - remember all those obligations to buy and promotion bonuses have to be paid for somehow. We have done it brfore and It would be of little surprise if it happened again.
Hi CP, how many of the figures you quote in this long analysis are evidenced by the financial statements? How many of them are evidenced by security charges for the different debts? How much, if any of the figures you quote are provided by private conversations you may have had with ex-directors or others who may have access to non-public domain information?

It would be fascinating to track all the debt arrangements and align them with the different relegation and promotion seasons. I agree with you that MSD required a significant capital repayment on the first relegation from the premier league under ALK ownership. Are we sure that early repayment penalties applied to further debt reductions? It's possible that the MSD loan allowed capital repayments in more than one stage, rather than the second repayment being a voluntary repayment. It's also possible that, after relegation a higher rate of interest was charged by MSD - and replacing the MSD loan with new financing (do we have any idea who this lender was? - no security charge was filed) provided better terms, one way or another, maybe similar interest rate, but more flexibility, more optionality. BFC replaced the financing from the unidentified lender with financing from MGG in late December/early January 2024. BFC were by that time heading for relegation (it was a tough season). I'd be surprised if the MGG financing wasn't arranged on the basis that the club would be back in Championship by the end of the season. I'd be surprised if the tenor of the loan was much beyond 12 months. Thus refinancing MGG would not carry any early repayment penalties - though, of course, carried re-financing risk in the event new financial arrangements could be agreed - but, parachute payments, and player trading last summer reduced the re-financing risk...

Anyway, I'm guessing and speculating as I guess you are - taking public domain data and building on it.

When do we expect to be able to see the 31-July-2024 financial statements? They are due to be filed at Companies House by 30th April, so maybe another 2 months before we see them. The "post-balance sheet events" disclosures may tell us a little more about re-financing arrangements. However, the 31-Jul-2023 accounts had nothing to disclose about the MGG financing because the accounts were signed off a few days before that transaction was entered into.

UTC

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Mar 03, 2025 5:59 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 5:14 pm
Hi CP, how many of the figures you quote in this long analysis are evidenced by the financial statements? How many of them are evidenced by security charges for the different debts? How much, if any of the figures you quote are provided by private conversations you may have had with ex-directors or others who may have access to non-public domain information?

It would be fascinating to track all the debt arrangements and align them with the different relegation and promotion seasons. I agree with you that MSD required a significant capital repayment on the first relegation from the premier league under ALK ownership. Are we sure that early repayment penalties applied to further debt reductions? It's possible that the MSD loan allowed capital repayments in more than one stage, rather than the second repayment being a voluntary repayment. It's also possible that, after relegation a higher rate of interest was charged by MSD - and replacing the MSD loan with new financing (do we have any idea who this lender was? - no security charge was filed) provided better terms, one way or another, maybe similar interest rate, but more flexibility, more optionality. BFC replaced the financing from the unidentified lender with financing from MGG in late December/early January 2024. BFC were by that time heading for relegation (it was a tough season). I'd be surprised if the MGG financing wasn't arranged on the basis that the club would be back in Championship by the end of the season. I'd be surprised if the tenor of the loan was much beyond 12 months. Thus refinancing MGG would not carry any early repayment penalties - though, of course, carried re-financing risk in the event new financial arrangements could be agreed - but, parachute payments, and player trading last summer reduced the re-financing risk...

Anyway, I'm guessing and speculating as I guess you are - taking public domain data and building on it.

When do we expect to be able to see the 31-July-2024 financial statements? They are due to be filed at Companies House by 30th April, so maybe another 2 months before we see them. The "post-balance sheet events" disclosures may tell us a little more about re-financing arrangements. However, the 31-Jul-2023 accounts had nothing to disclose about the MGG financing because the accounts were signed off a few days before that transaction was entered into.

UTC
Paul, you already know all the answers to that question. They have been shared (including public domain sources) and discussed a number of times in this thread (and others) over the period, by a number of posters including your good self.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by BleedingClaret » Mon Mar 03, 2025 6:35 pm

Hi Chester
I for one appreciate your efforts to bring some sense to the complexity of the financing of our football club.
If they, ALK were less secretive and reported to HMRC on time you wouldn’t have to try and fill in the holes they leave
Keep up the good work Pal
Last edited by BleedingClaret on Mon Mar 03, 2025 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by BleedingClaret » Mon Mar 03, 2025 6:36 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 5:59 pm
Paul, you already know all the answers to that question. They have been shared (including public domain sources) and discussed a number of times in this thread (and others) over the period, by a number of posters including your good self.
Hi Chester
I for one appreciate your efforts to bring some sense to the complexity of the financing of our football club.
If they, ALK were less secretive and reported to HMRC on time you wouldn’t have to try and fill in the holes they leave
Keep up the good work Pal

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Paul Waine » Mon Mar 03, 2025 8:08 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 6:35 pm
Hi Chester
I for one appreciate your efforts to bring some sense to the complexity of the financing of our football club.
If they, ALK were less secretive and reported to HMRC on time you wouldn’t have to try and fill in the holes they leave
Keep up the good work Pal
Hi BC, there's no suggestion by anyone that ALK have not reported to HMRC on time - HMRC is the "tax man." There's also no suggestion that ALK have failed to report on time to Companies House on all the BFC companies. They have, of course, be "dilatory" on filing the accounting statements of the ALK companies that have been, from time to time, above BFCHL in the chain of share ownership.

In other areas - including areas that are much more significant than any professional football club - Companies House is criticised as being "not fit for purpose." There are much "bigger fish" than the ALK companies who require "chasing up" and, in some cases, being subject to sanctions for their late filing of financial statements. Dan Neidle can be very interesting in this area for anyone who is interested. (I'm not sure though if Dan Neidle has any interest in professional football clubs).
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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by BleedingClaret » Mon Mar 03, 2025 8:36 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 8:08 pm
Hi BC, there's no suggestion by anyone that ALK have not reported to HMRC on time - HMRC is the "tax man." There's also no suggestion that ALK have failed to report on time to Companies House on all the BFC companies. They have, of course, be "dilatory" on filing the accounting statements of the ALK companies that have been, from time to time, above BFCHL in the chain of share ownership.

In other areas - including areas that are much more significant than any professional football club - Companies House is criticised as being "not fit for purpose." There are much "bigger fish" than the ALK companies who require "chasing up" and, in some cases, being subject to sanctions for their late filing of financial statements. Dan Neidle can be very interesting in this area for anyone who is interested. (I'm not sure though if Dan Neidle has any interest in professional football clubs).
Understood

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:31 pm

billyhamilton82 wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:59 pm
I vowed to myself I wouldn't look at this thread again due to the ridiculous assumptions argued by those "in the know" but my curiosity got the better of me when it popped back to the top .....again.

I have realised it was a mistake with yet more self proclaimed nothingness based on well....nothing.

I hope this doesn't come across as being rude because that is not my intention, I just feel Alan Pace deserves more credit and don't understand this constant attempt to suggest things aren't above board or not being done in the best interests of BFC.

I have tried previouly to add some balance but its a difficult job when it seems some are out for "Pace blood" for reasons I cannot fathom.

268 Pages of at best, opinion or at worst attempting to undermine the owners by "suggesting" they aren't doing things correctly according to a few on here who believe they know better.

Five years on and 268 pages later all I can tell from reading between the lines is that 2 confirmation statements were late @ £34 each.

I could understand this thread if the Venkys were in charge, but come on.

It proves that having a small amount of knowledge or a limited understanding of something can lead to misguided beliefs and others will follow hoping for some ITK info.

I'm sure the egos on here won't be able to resist ripping this post apart in order to back up their argument but I can confirm there is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary in the way the club is being managed.

In fact IMO they are doing a damned good job in very trying circumstances.
I just think like your other posts this is just a long list of Ad Hominem comments about people who post on here with no substance at all to back up your points.

If you feel that Alan Pace is doing a very good job in trying circumstances then so be it. It can't be ripped apart because you haven't actually said anything to back up your points.....!

It's like when Donald Trump is asked a question by CNN about Zelensky and Trump launches into a tirade about CNNs viewing figures blah blah etc.

Make your points and accept some will never agree with you.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:40 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 5:59 pm
Paul, you already know all the answers to that question. They have been shared (including public domain sources) and discussed a number of times in this thread (and others) over the period, by a number of posters including your good self.
Good work as ever Chester. My only beef is that it should be made clearer that the £40 million is not the debt per sei but just one aspect of it.

In the last published accounts the creditors stood at over £230 million with an additional £40 million in post balance sheet events.

And the balance sheet is kept afloat by the huge inter company debt, which we will likely never get back. The reality is we will know much more at the end of April. I expect the next set of accounts to be relatively positive because I think it will cover the period we had full PL broadcast revenue.

I think ALK are suffering from the law of diminishing returns as we gamble on new squads every season, however, it's also true to say that windfalls from Esteve and Foster will make life easier and then it's a question of if we can improve our transfer activity in the PL assuming we make it.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:47 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2025 9:19 pm
I suspect this is confirmation that the MGG loan deal was replaced by the one with Fasanara Capital Ltd - if so, that appears to be a significant reduction in debt. it will be interesting to see how it was achieved.

Burnley FC Holdings
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

Longside Properties
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

Burnley FC Women
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

nothing as yet for Burnley Football and Athletic Club Limited
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history
So this is an intriguing twist

at Companies House - Burnley Football and Athletic Club Limited
'Part of the property or undertaking has been released from charge'

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

Some of the other Charge Satisfactions have now been published - they do (as expected) relate to MGG

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:51 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:47 pm
So this is an intriguing twist

at Companies House - Burnley Football and Athletic Club Limited
'Part of the property or undertaking has been released from charge'

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

Some of the other Charge Satisfactions have now been published - they do (as expected) relate to MGG
Suggesting not all of the MGG debt has gone?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by dsr » Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:03 am

aggi wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:49 pm
Unless your owners have huge amounts of wealth then there is an argument that a club should be operating with a reasonable amount of debt and using that to progress (i.e. asset purchases rather than working capital).

I would be surprised if clearing debt was a priority at the moment and I would expect us to have a level of debt until, at the very least, we've consolidated in the Premier League for a few years.
The bit I highlighted is exactly the issue that many of us are complaining about. If we had a reasonable level of debt used to progress, eg. asset purchases, that may be bearable.

But the debt we have was used and is still used, in its entirety, to fund Alan Pace's loans that he used to buy the club. All the money in the bank at the time of takeover, and all the loans since, are used to pay for this huge £125m (as at July 2023, it may be more now) that Pace has taken from the club and is paying no interest on. Not a penny of it was spent on club assets.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 04, 2025 9:54 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:47 pm
So this is an intriguing twist

at Companies House - Burnley Football and Athletic Club Limited
'Part of the property or undertaking has been released from charge'

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

Some of the other Charge Satisfactions have now been published - they do (as expected) relate to MGG
It appears to release the land and buildings but makes no mention of the other security on bank accounts, debts and the like.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 04, 2025 9:56 am

dsr wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:03 am
The bit I highlighted is exactly the issue that many of us are complaining about. If we had a reasonable level of debt used to progress, eg. asset purchases, that may be bearable.

But the debt we have was used and is still used, in its entirety, to fund Alan Pace's loans that he used to buy the club. All the money in the bank at the time of takeover, and all the loans since, are used to pay for this huge £125m (as at July 2023, it may be more now) that Pace has taken from the club and is paying no interest on. Not a penny of it was spent on club assets.
There is of course an argument that buying the club is purchasing an asset but that would probably depend on how much you valued our ownership's input as to whether it has been worth the investment.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by NewClaret » Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:22 am

aggi wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 9:54 am
It appears to release the land and buildings but makes no mention of the other security on bank accounts, debts and the like.
Why would that be? Any ideas?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by billyhamilton82 » Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:27 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Mon Mar 03, 2025 10:31 pm
I just think like your other posts this is just a long list of Ad Hominem comments about people who post on here with no substance at all to back up your points.

If you feel that Alan Pace is doing a very good job in trying circumstances then so be it. It can't be ripped apart because you haven't actually said anything to back up your points.....!

It's like when Donald Trump is asked a question by CNN about Zelensky and Trump launches into a tirade about CNNs viewing figures blah blah etc.

Make your points and accept some will never agree with you.
And there it is....how can this have anything at all to do with Donald Trump and CNN :D ?

You've gone off in your own world, sometimes its best to sit back and read what you have written before posting.

This has to be the most random statement I've seen on this forum, and that is really saying something.

No wonder this thread is so convoluted.

"If you feel that Alan Pace is doing a very good job in trying circumstances then so be it. It can't be ripped apart because you haven't actually said anything to back up your points.....!"

That's my whole point no-one has said anything on here to back anything up with facts.

No-one on this thread has backed anything up only with conjecture and opinion.

I am being reasonable and not attacked anyone personally as you are alluding.

My point is the thread of negativity about the owners with no proof or factual information to back it up.

I will let you all get on with your negative thread and as mentioned won't bother trying to balance the discussion as that is what a debate is meant to be, two sides, and let you enjoy your Donald Trump comparisons :-) its all a bit too far fetched for me.

Ironically the same as this thread.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Big Vinny K » Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:38 am

NewClaret wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:22 am
Why would that be? Any ideas?
Looks like the security being released is the training ground, Turf Moor and the old sports gym at the Turf.
This suggests that any floating charges remain - so that could be a debenture type charge against the debtors book, bank accounts etc as suggested above.

Not sure why this could be other than :
- the new lenders have enough security with the floating charges
- the new facility is more of a factoring / revolving finance type facility (where quite often takes a floating charge is taken rather than the fixed asset type charge)
- the security is being released in readiness for a new loan where these assets are required as security.

Or none of the above !!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:43 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:38 am
Looks like the security being released is the training ground, Turf Moor and the old sports gym at the Turf.
This suggests that any floating charges remain - so that could be a debenture type charge against the debtors book, bank accounts etc as suggested above.

Not sure why this could be other than :
- the new lenders have enough security with the floating charges
- the new facility is more of a factoring / revolving finance type facility (where quite often takes a floating charge is taken rather than the fixed asset type charge)
- the security is being released in readiness for a new loan where these assets are required as security.

Or none of the above !!
I think that's the wrong way round. The new lenders have the land and buildings as security. The old lenders (Jan 2024) have the other charges (but not land and buildings).

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Big Vinny K » Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:03 am

aggi wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:43 am
I think that's the wrong way round. The new lenders have the land and buildings as security. The old lenders (Jan 2024) have the other charges (but not land and buildings).
Oh right - only skimmed through the charges.
That makes more sense actually !

Might be just a delay then in releasing floating charges or might be keeping the old lenders charge in place for future factoring facilities ?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:45 am

billyhamilton82 wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:27 am


No-one on this thread has backed anything up only with conjecture and opinion.

I am being reasonable and not attacked anyone personally as you are alluding.

My point is the thread of negativity about the owners with no proof or factual information to back it up.
These comments only stand up if you truly believe that publicly accessible and legally regulated filings at Companies House, TISE (Guernsey), The Jersey Financial Services Commission together with communications sent to many hundreds of Shareholders (some of which are supporters groups) and statements to an authorised and regulated share trading platform, public statements and press releases by and on behalf of the majority owners are not factual information. Not to mention related and associated public registrations in Delaware, Luxembourg and even the Securities and Exchange Commission in the USA.

I have both shared and used all of the above in my discussions and analysis. Also where I have made use of private information and stated it as fact much has since come out as such in subsequent public filings, such as many of the events of November 2022. Where I have speculated and made assumptions I have stated as such repeatedly and even described the thought process so it could be challenged and corrected.

I have always been open and accepting to being proven wrong in my postings, though, to paraphrase Pete, I prefer the challenge/correction to include substantive and demonstrable reasoning.
This user liked this post: dsr

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:50 am

aggi wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:43 am
I think that's the wrong way round. The new lenders have the land and buildings as security. The old lenders (Jan 2024) have the other charges (but not land and buildings).
My first thoughts (yes this is speculation) when I saw the notification last night was that the retained element of the charge related to the element that covered the former Macquarie factoring on the parachute payments - if so then this could run through to next summer (unless paid up early) and will see payments regularly bringing down the debt balance

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:51 am

billyhamilton82 wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:27 am
And there it is....how can this have anything at all to do with Donald Trump and CNN :D ?

You've gone off in your own world, sometimes its best to sit back and read what you have written before posting.

This has to be the most random statement I've seen on this forum, and that is really saying something.

No wonder this thread is so convoluted.

"If you feel that Alan Pace is doing a very good job in trying circumstances then so be it. It can't be ripped apart because you haven't actually said anything to back up your points.....!"

That's my whole point no-one has said anything on here to back anything up with facts.

No-one on this thread has backed anything up only with conjecture and opinion.


I am being reasonable and not attacked anyone personally as you are alluding.

My point is the thread of negativity about the owners with no proof or factual information to back it up.

I will let you all get on with your negative thread and as mentioned won't bother trying to balance the discussion as that is what a debate is meant to be, two sides, and let you enjoy your Donald Trump comparisons :-) its all a bit too far fetched for me.

Ironically the same as this thread.
It may be that you don't understand the stuff but there are plenty of facts on this thread backed up by statutory filings.

There is also plenty of conjecture, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't, and anyone who claims to have definitive knowledge of the financial position can probably be ignored. There isn't really anyone claiming that though.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:16 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 9:54 am
It appears to release the land and buildings but makes no mention of the other security on bank accounts, debts and the like.
Question

If this retention is not just for the former Macquarie factoring element, could it be reasoned that the debt owed to the club by ALK means that the majority owners are potentially providing some form of guarantee/assurance on the outstanding debt (£65m owed to Burnley Football and Athletic Company Limited as per last accounts) to MGG?

I note there is no charge on Velocity Capital (UK) Holdings Ltd and that I do not necessarily expect one in relation to this

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Big Vinny K » Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:18 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 11:45 am
These comments only stand up if you truly believe that publicly accessible and legally regulated filings at Companies House, TISE (Guernsey), The Jersey Financial Services Commission together with communications sent to many hundreds of Shareholders (some of which are supporters groups) and statements to an authorised and regulated share trading platform, public statements and press releases by and on behalf of the majority owners are not factual information. Not to mention related and associated public registrations in Delaware, Luxembourg and even the Securities and Exchange Commission in the USA.

I have both shared and used all of the above in my discussions and analysis. Also where I have made use of private information and stated it as fact much has since come out as such in subsequent public filings, such as many of the events of November 2022. Where I have speculated and made assumptions I have stated as such repeatedly and even described the thought process so it could be challenged and corrected.

I have always been open and accepting to being proven wrong in my postings, though, to paraphrase Pete, I prefer the challenge/correction to include substantive and demonstrable reasoning.
Best to ignore him CP.
I will never understand someone who comes on a long-standing thread to say he has no interest in it, does not believe any of the content and says that there is “nothing to see here”

Most people just don’t go on a thread which they have no interest on or if they do actually have something they want to debate post something to counter the argument.

As said by others lots of factual stuff on this thread which you and others have posted. And where there is conjecture it’s reasoned and explained.

Again given the content of virtually every other thread on this messageboard why someone would have an issue with conjecture, opinions or rumours is completely beyond me. This is probably up there with the most factual thread on this board !!

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:29 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:18 pm
Best to ignore him CP.
I will never understand someone who comes on a long-standing thread to say he has no interest in it, does not believe any of the content and says that there is “nothing to see here”

Most people just don’t go on a thread which they have no interest on or if they do actually have something they want to debate post something to counter the argument.

As said by others lots of factual stuff on this thread which you and others have posted. And where there is conjecture it’s reasoned and explained.

Again given the content of virtually every other thread on this messageboard why someone would have an issue with conjecture, opinions or rumours is completely beyond me. This is probably up there with the most factual thread on this board !!
I tend to ignore such posts, but it has been quite some time since I have stated my case in relation to what and how I post - if nothing else it can remind or inform newer readers of how I approach this and indeed all such threads.

I will add that I find knowledgeable, reasoned and substantiated counter arguments quite productive to the overall understanding we all have things still to learn.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Claretnick » Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:37 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:29 pm
I tend to ignore such posts, but it has been quite some time since I have stated my case in relation to what and how I post - if nothing else it can remind or inform newer readers of how I approach this and indeed all such threads.

I will add that I find knowledgeable, reasoned and substantiated counter arguments quite productive to the overall understanding we all have things still to learn.
May I ask a question?
The charges detail the land at Turf Moor and Gawthorpe.
Why is there no mention of the land owned by the club off Rosegrove Lane adjacent to the Burnley Bridge business park?
Does the club still own it or have I missed it being sold?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ClaretPete001 » Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:43 pm

billyhamilton82 wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:27 am
And there it is....how can this have anything at all to do with Donald Trump and CNN :D ?

You've gone off in your own world, sometimes its best to sit back and read what you have written before posting.

This has to be the most random statement I've seen on this forum, and that is really saying something.

No wonder this thread is so convoluted.

"If you feel that Alan Pace is doing a very good job in trying circumstances then so be it. It can't be ripped apart because you haven't actually said anything to back up your points.....!"

That's my whole point no-one has said anything on here to back anything up with facts.

No-one on this thread has backed anything up only with conjecture and opinion.

I am being reasonable and not attacked anyone personally as you are alluding.

My point is the thread of negativity about the owners with no proof or factual information to back it up.

I will let you all get on with your negative thread and as mentioned won't bother trying to balance the discussion as that is what a debate is meant to be, two sides, and let you enjoy your Donald Trump comparisons :-) its all a bit too far fetched for me.

Ironically the same as this thread.
Well you have the Trumpesque bully/victim dichotomy to a tee. I'm just amazed you didn't ask us to thank you for telling us how it is and for pointing out our ridiculously over-inflated egos and lack of knowledge. And no, I'm not wearing a suit...!

Anyway, this is what you wrote about people who post on here.

- I vowed to myself I wouldn't look at this thread again due to the ridiculous assumptions argued by those "in the know"

- I have realised it was a mistake with yet more self proclaimed nothingness based on well....nothing.

- I hope this doesn't come across as being rude because that is not my intention

- It proves that having a small amount of knowledge or a limited understanding of something can lead to misguided beliefs and others will follow hoping for some ITK info.

- I'm sure the egos on here won't be able to resist ripping this post apart

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by randomclaret2 » Tue Mar 04, 2025 1:13 pm

' Trumpesque bully/victim dichotomy' is not a turn of phrase I thought I'd ever read on a football message board 😆

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Vegas Claret » Tue Mar 04, 2025 4:34 pm

is this good news ?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 04, 2025 7:24 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 4:34 pm
is this good news ?
Maybe.

Maybe not.

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Vegas Claret » Tue Mar 04, 2025 10:08 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2025 7:24 pm
Maybe.

Maybe not.
That's as far as I got :D

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Mar 12, 2025 1:44 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2025 11:29 am
It has taken a while but Velocity Capital (UK) Holdings Ltd has been issued with a First Gazette Notice for failing to produce it's accounts.

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

VC(UK)HL is the majority shareholder in Burnley FC Holdings and is the likely place where the debt owed to the club (£124.07m at the last published accounts) resides.

At no time has any entity that ALK/VSL used for this shareholding/debt owning purpose ever produced a set of accounts
It should come as no surprise that this First Gazette Notice for Velocity Capital (UK) Holdings Ltd has been discontinued - from what I have seen of the previous notices it does not take much action for this to happen and certainly does not appear to require the submission/publication of the documents whose absence initially led to the giving of the First Gazette Notice.

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by ecc » Fri Apr 25, 2025 10:25 am

I'm going to be brave or foolish but here goes (please go easy on me!).

Now that our lads have secured promotion what do you, Chester and the other financially-aware posters, think will happen with the PL money?

By that, how much will go towards paying off some of our debt?

I do appreciate this is a very basic question but it's clearly essential.

I also realise before we even consider debt repayment the club will have to fork out a lot of money on promotion-related bonuses.

Many thanks to those of you who reply.

UTC

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Tribesmen » Fri Apr 25, 2025 10:41 am

I would like to see our debt cut by at least 50% .

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Rumpelstiltskin » Fri Apr 25, 2025 10:45 am

Tribesmen wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 10:41 am
I would like to see our debt cut by at least 50% .
Does anyone know how much the debt is ?

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Re: ALK Capital or Farnell/Elkashashy takeover

Post by Big Vinny K » Fri Apr 25, 2025 11:03 am

ecc wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 10:25 am
I'm going to be brave or foolish but here goes (please go easy on me!).

Now that our lads have secured promotion what do you, Chester and the other financially-aware posters, think will happen with the PL money?

By that, how much will go towards paying off some of our debt?

I do appreciate this is a very basic question but it's clearly essential.

I also realise before we even consider debt repayment the club will have to fork out a lot of money on promotion-related bonuses.

Many thanks to those of you who reply.

UTC
To also answer one of the below questions it’s not definitive how much debt we have outstanding. We have refinanced the debt several times. The one thing that is pretty much guaranteed (given the recent registration of legal charges) is that we do still have debt. I’d estimate this around £65m to £100m but Chester is probably the best person to give his view as he has followed it more closely than any of us.

Whether we will pay off all or any of this debt with promotion depends on a few things too. There could be some contractual commitments within our loan agreements to do so (possibly linked to promotion but could also just be timing linked - eg after one year we have to make a repayment of £xm).

If there are no contractual obligations to repay amounts of the capital borrowed the it’s difficult to predict what the owners will want to do. Our finances and ownership structure is far more complex than we have ever had previously so it’s not as simple a decision as paying off all or most of the debt to save £10m or so in interest a year. Our owners have shown that irrespective of which league we are in they are comfortable with carrying debt and using various financial tools to manage their business model. It’s not just the loans we carry which have shown this but also the way we have regularly used factoring facilities (notoriously one of the most expensive ways for any business to borrow money)
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