The New Doctor Who

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Rowls
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by Rowls » Sun Jun 01, 2025 2:55 pm

Clovius Boofus wrote:
Sun Jun 01, 2025 2:05 pm
Where did I say nobody watched it before the internet?

I tell you this though, I certainly didn't see anyone getting worked up over Doctor Who. You must have drank in some oddbod pubs if you overheard adults arguing about who was playing the role at the time.
You said this was something 'we have become' which I took to assume you thought this kind of obsessive fan behaviour was a very modern phenomena, but it isn't. Obsessive fans have been having these debates and arguments as soon as they realised there were others like them and had the means to communicate.

Originally it was done via mail and the letters pages in fan-produced fanzines. Dr. Who fanzines have been around since the 70s. They're still going...

As for "oddbod pubs", there's no such thing. Pubs are pubs. Dr Who fans are simply oddbods in perfectly normal pubs.

Two that I know are frequented by Dr Who fans would be The Briton's Protection in Manchester and the Fitzroy Tavern in London.

Clovius Boofus
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by Clovius Boofus » Sun Jun 01, 2025 2:58 pm

:lol:

Bosscat
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by Bosscat » Sun Jun 01, 2025 3:10 pm

Don't you just love the close season and arguments about TV ... Dr Who is now incomprehesible sh*te whereas it just used to be incomprehensible 🤣

basil6345789
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by basil6345789 » Sun Jun 01, 2025 5:40 pm

Bosscat wrote:
Sun Jun 01, 2025 3:10 pm
Don't you just love the close season and arguments about TV ... Dr Who is now incomprehesible sh*te whereas it just used to be incomprehensible 🤣
Only William Hartnell any good

Bosscat
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by Bosscat » Sun Jun 01, 2025 5:56 pm

basil6345789 wrote:
Sun Jun 01, 2025 5:40 pm
Only William Hartnell any good
Patrick Troughton too 😉
This user liked this post: Rowls

Rowls
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by Rowls » Sun Jun 01, 2025 6:03 pm

OK, I'll confess - I'm bored. So I'm going to write a little bit about ONE of the reasons I haven't enjoyed the last 3-4 seasons of Dr Who as much as i have in the past. Specifically, I want to challenge the notion that, "You can't complain about the stories being 'unbelievable' because the premise of the show is already fantastical."

This point, or variations of it, has already been made at least once on this thread. There's some truth to it. The whole show is a bonkers idea.
However, just because Dr Who is fantastical in its nature doesn't mean that you can just write anything. There are clear rules and constraints in genres. If fiction doesn't adhere to some kind of internal 'quasi-logic' within the story-telling then it loses credibility. Break the rules and everything breaks.

We're not talking about comparing the fictional universe of Dr Who to the real world. The whole show is absurd if you do that. We talking about comparing what happens in the storylines to the constraints and logic that have already been laid down within the lore and canon inside of the fcitional world.

George R.R. Martin talks about the same issue within his chosen genre of fantasy. To paraphrase, he points out that fantasy without any magical/fantastical elements (eg. dragons or witchcraft or magic) is simply 'historical fiction'. On the other hand, if you have 'too much magic' then any drama, suspense or conflict very quickly dissipates. What danger is there in an entire army of goblins and warlocks if a magical Gandalf figure can simply wave a "magic stick" and have them all turn to sand? None, is the answer.

The same applies to Dr Who. He's already got a device that acts as a "magic stick" in the shape of his "sonic screwdriver" but what distinguishes science-fiction from fantasy is the Dr Who's "magic stick" is presented as a technological device. It serves exactly the same purpose in the story-telling.

However - there has been waaaaaay too much "magic" in Dr Who recently. Allow me to explain.

Dr Who is remarkably flexible and we've had "god-like" creatures presented in the past. Sometimes a lot more successfully than others. For example, Dr Who and The Daemons (1971) is all about a god-like creature appearing in rural England with the power to eliminate the whole world and destroy mankind. It's very much a riff on the folk-horror films of the 70s.

The story is well regarded among Dr Who fans, with the exception of the final part (Episode 5). Most fans view it as a classic of the era for many reasons (it's packed with a fan-favourite regular cast) but in terms of the story-telling aspect, the parts that work best are when the drama is between the protgaonists within the story (the locals go all Wicker Man and try and kidnap the Doctor at gunpoint) and when "magical elements" are constrained. That's the important factor with the "magical" elements - they are constrained.

Why are they constrained? Well it all goes back to that "magic stick" thing. If the Doctor can shake a 'magic stick' and fix everything, there's no drama. Equally, if the villains have an all-powerful "magic stick" of their own then why haven't they shaken already and succeeded with their devilish plan?

The key thing within the story that allows the magical elements to work is that they provide just the right amount of jeopardy. You need the Goldilocks amount of magic, not too much and not too little. How well these dramatic events work isn't based on extreme they are, it's based on how we relate to the characters experiencing the danger. It doesn't hinge on the whole town/country/universe being about to explode.

For example, the Doctor is blasted frozen by explosion ... then he, erm, ... he just thaws out. Jo Grant (his lovely assistant) is attacked by poisoned ivy that springs to life and she escapes when ... erm, well, ... the Ivy suddenly isn't magically possessed anymore and she mangaes to run off. A UNIT soldier is beaten up by mysterious forces from a portal and ... erm, well, he gets a bit bruised but nothing too serious.

Why are these threats all so humdrum? Because they're not coming from the big, bad God-like creature - they're being directed by the evil character 'the Master' who has neither full control of these 'magical elements' nor any real influence over the God-like create itself. So the constraint placed on these magical events all complies to the internal logic already laid out within the story and logic within the lore of the science-fiction world of Dr Who.

And why is the final part, part 5, not so well regarded by fans as parts 1, 2, 3 and 4? Well, there's more than one reason (bad special effects is certainly one of them) but in terms of the story-telling, the God-like creature finally appears and thus, the constraints to his power suddenly don't apply. The creature has the power to destroy the whole of planet earth. Uh-oh! It's literally undefeatable. So how to you destroy or defeat an "all powerful being" and stay within the constraints of the in-world logic? SImple answer: You can't.

The ending is as hoky as hell. Jo, the Doctors winsome assistant, offers herself up as a sacrifice to the creature on the condition that he doesn't kill the Doctor and blow up the earth or wotnot and the creature finds this "illogical" so self-implodes. Or something. There's a lot of shouting and screaming, a poof of special effects smoke and then we're all back to normal.

Seriously. That's the ending. It's barely any better than, "and they all woke up and realised it was a dream."

It's as dramatically disappointing as, ohhh, I don't know ... it's as dramatially disappointing as a whole series packed full of political intruigue, battles, betrayals and multiple intricate storylines all going up in smoke as a CGI version of a sexy actress flies around torching everything on the back of a dragon. Couldn't that have happened four seasons ago? Yeah. Makes the whole thing a big waste of time, doesn't it? Yeah.

Does it really matter? If you don't like Dr Who then it doesn't. So why are you even reading the Dr Who thread, eh? Go on, be off with yourself.

What we can say though, from our personal perspectives, is that it detracts from the escapism the story is meant to provide.

'Dr Who and the Daemons' as a whole story (all 5 parts) still stands up because it's not all about the ending, it's more about the journey - those vignettes of danger already listed are great set pieces of drama and entertainment. They all place a quasi-magical danger, dress it up with a veneer of science-fiction then plop into the quaint setting of an English village. That's quintessential Dr Who. That's why fans view the story a 'classic' - not the silly ending.

How does this apply to the new series of Dr Who? Well, they've increasingly been like that poor 5th episode of the Daemons, but without the slow build-up of drama under layers of in-world constraints. We're skipping to the silly endings week after week.

In Dr Who recently we've had:
* A god-like creature defeated because he dropped a bean bag.
* A bunch of goblins whose 'technology' is suspiciously like magic and who are defeated by a sing-song.
* Another god-like creature with the power to appear anywhere (eg. climb out of an upright piano) and to rid the world of music (but not all music, just good music, umokay...) who is defeated when John Lennon hums a little ditty.
* Yet another god-like creature with the power to turn people into cartoons and do seemingly anything. Defeated by opening up the windows. *Sigh*

All of these stories work -to some extent- just like the 1971 'Dr Who and the Daemons' but there's another issue of scale here. Jon Pertwee was Dr Who for 5 years (1970-1975) and in that time there were 24 different stories and over 100+ weekly episodes. There is only this ONE single story resorts to the old "it looks like magic but really it's just science" schtick. In the past two years we've had three or four of these kind of stories, and they've been stripped of the slow build-up and the in-world constraints on the "magic".

In short, there's been too many of them. It's silly series finales, week after week.

And it's only one example of where the new series have been falling down. There has been a marked drop-off in many other aspects of the story telling over the past few seasons. We haven't even touched on the historical inaccuracies and the other more political talking points that surround the show these days.

Obviously, it's all a matter of opinion at the end of the day. Some people might think the past few seasons have been the best ever. As I said, I'm bored, and wanted to type out a kind of explanation for people. Just as a counterpoint to the idea that "because the show exists within a fantastical premise, it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense". No, it doesn't "matter", but it really doesn't make for such good entertainment which is the entire point of it all. I watch Dr Who in the hope of being entertained. It's not been especially entertaining recently, which makes it disappointing.

Finally, for those who want to poke fun at me for "obsessing about Dr Who" or "getting angry" about it, for "raging online" it and who feel inclined to post the meme of Grandpa Simpson shouting at the cloud - please go ahead. That's all part of the fun. I've got more enjoyment out of writing this up than I have from the latest episodes of Dr Who episodes. If you want to take it further, we can meet up for a pint at the Oddbod Arms and discuss it all night long. I'll even buy you a half of mild or a small lager top.

But I also want to point out that enjoying Dr Who isn't really that different from enjoying football and supporting Burnley. Granted, there are extremely different cultures associated with the two passtimes but they're both just hobbies we take up to enjoy ourselves and pass the time.

Is excitedly speculating who the next Dr Who might be really that different to excitedly speculating what our next kit might look like? I'm excited to know what the next kit might look like and excited by the idea of watching a well made episode of Dr Who. How on earth are these two intrinsically different? Is being disappointed by a bad Burnley performance any different from being disappointed by a bad episode of Dr Who?

I get far more worked up about Burnley but it's far more rare an occurance that anyone pokes fun at football fans for getting upset about something which is, in the scheme of things, completely trivial.

Anyway, I'm off to watch Tomb of the Cybermen now but I'd be interested to hear any counterpoints to my thoughts. Any if anybody wants a pint with me, I'll be in the Oddbod Arms at between 7:30pm and 7:50pm before I go to bed.

timshorts
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by timshorts » Sun Jun 01, 2025 6:18 pm

So you are saying that the recent doctor who series (x 2) are the equivalent of pierce brosnan as James bond.

The bond after him turned out pretty good, so perhaps the next Dr. Who will be too.

Bosscat
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by Bosscat » Sun Jun 01, 2025 6:30 pm

timshorts wrote:
Sun Jun 01, 2025 6:18 pm
So you are saying that the recent doctor who series (x 2) are the equivalent of pierce brosnan as James bond.

The bond after him turned out pretty good, so perhaps the next Dr. Who will be too.
Don't bet your house on it 🤣

Rowls
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by Rowls » Sun Jun 01, 2025 6:31 pm

Who know, eh? Who knows?

Image

dougcollins
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by dougcollins » Sun Jun 01, 2025 7:33 pm

It's what the kids want.

Actually, what they think they want.

martin_p
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by martin_p » Sun Jun 01, 2025 9:38 pm

dougcollins wrote:
Sun Jun 01, 2025 7:33 pm
It's what the kids want.

Actually, what they think they want.
My ten year old son loves it. He was on the phone to his mate discussing ‘theories’ for half an hour after the episode ended yesterday. But he and his mate are part of the Doctor Who core demographic, men in their 50s who liked it in the 70s (and I include myself in that category) probably aren’t.

Clovius Boofus
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by Clovius Boofus » Mon Jun 02, 2025 8:55 am

At least it gives them something to wave another a stick at.

Firthy
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by Firthy » Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:17 am

Do you think we'll ever see a white male play Dr Who again?

Vincent'sCap
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by Vincent'sCap » Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:47 am

Firthy wrote:
Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:17 am
Do you think we'll ever see a white male play Dr Who again?
Of course,is Bob Hoskins still alive? :)

HahaYeah
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Re: The New Doctor Who

Post by HahaYeah » Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:49 am

Firthy wrote:
Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:17 am
Do you think we'll ever see a white male play Dr Who again?
Graham Norton would be good.

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