Fully Electric Cars

[Rick_Muller]

As was i in my original post......he'd come across as more in the know than the "average Joe" despite not owning an electric car....and was now humbly asking for all kinds of info.

try specific info, not all kinds of info. If you cannot interact in a civil manner please dont do so at all.

[Plissken]

400+ miles - quoted range of 372 so I know I’ll need to charge somewhere, but preferably somewhere cheaper than services. I was considering a top up on the way up and then drain coming home

So assuming you have a home charge, you are working on a real world range of 300 miles for a 400 mile trip and you need 100 miles worth of charge. Or 33%. You can do that on a fast charge in 20 minutes, any time on your journey. So, you can probably find a supermarket somewhere to pull off to rather than a services. (Which, from memory, have been the same prices as a charger on a normal road.)

Trickle charging during a match doesn't seem worth it. You can put 28kW in over four hours, or in twenty minutes.

[Rick_Muller]

So assuming you have a home charge, you are working on a real world range of 300 miles for a 400 mile trip and you need 100 miles worth of charge. Or 33%. You can do that on a fast charge in 20 minutes, any time on your journey. So, you can probably find a supermarket somewhere to pull off to rather than a services. (Which, from memory, have been the same prices as a charger on a normal road.)

Trickle charging during a match doesn't seem worth it. You can put 28kW in over four hours, or in twenty minutes.

thanks for that, it supports what I was thinking anyway. I just need to find a suitable stopping point on the way up I think to add the 33% in as you suggested and that should do me, cheers

[exilecanada]

My car has "iconic sounds".....there is a way to shut them off though.

Brilliant I would imagine other manufacturers have a similar system? Next evolution would be a fake tail pipe emitting fake black smoke? Then………. ‘jobs a gud un’

[Somethingfishy]

How good would it be if we could get battery technology to a point where you can swap the battery out when it is low for a fully charged one and just plug it in? We could repurpose petrol stations to be charge/battery swap stations. You could ask for different amounts just as you can fill up for different amounts.
Drive up, slect the amount/range you want on an app or a screen and it lights up to plug your old one in and another lights up and you unplug and plug into your car...a bit like when you go shopping and get your own hand held zapper. No waiting around to charge.

Makes sense but the technology is years away.

[Taffy on the wing]

try specific info, not all kinds of info. If you cannot interact in a civil manner please dont do so at all.

Try not to be so condescending!...

[Taffy on the wing]

Brilliant I would imagine other manufacturers have a similar system? Next evolution would be a fake tail pipe emitting fake black smoke? Then………. ‘jobs a gud un’

I've seen the fake tail pipes on Teslas....seems to be a thing!...a bit like the Ball-bags hanging from the back of pickup trucks.

[Somethingfishy]

I've seen the fake tail pipes on Teslas....seems to be a thing!...a bit like the Ball-bags hanging from the back of pickup trucks.

Aren't the ball-bags usually driving them?

[Plissken]

thanks for that, it supports what I was thinking anyway. I just need to find a suitable stopping point on the way up I think to add the 33% in as you suggested and that should do me, cheers

If you have a home charger, then you will (and I mean you WILL) have a mindset change when it comes to fuelling.

In an ICE, there is no real time difference between filling it half full or to the brim. So people just fill to the brim.

In a EV, there is, for want of a better word, a time penalty for charging. So the mindset for topping up is "how much do I need to get to where I need to be?"

I was away over the weekend, drove to and around to Lincolnshire. Google Maps was telling me that I would get back home with 9% charge. It's incredibly accurate but I wasn't happy about leaving it that low. So I stopped off at a pub of all places and put 20% in in 10 minutes. In a ICE car, I would have topped to the brim because, well, I'm stopping anyway, might as well. But because of the time penalty, I only put a tenner worth in at the charger and then easily got home, to "fill up" 80% worth for a grand total cost of *checks app* £5.01.

Took me a short while to realise it, myself. When using public chargers, charge what you need, not what you can.

[Taffy on the wing]

Aren't the ball-bags usually driving them?

Spot on!

[Rick_Muller]

Try not to be so condescending!...

I apologise if that's how I came across previously, most certainly not my intention.

I do have good technical knowledge of how EVs function and a good understanding of the potential issues with charging on the public network both from what I have seen and anecdotally from colleagues as I have mentioned before.

I have also said before that when the time comes I will likely get an EV, and that time is now. I still don't think they will be the long term future of personal transport, I still believe that they are a stepping stone to something much improved, but for the next 3 years I'll have one and I am sure I will enjoy using it.

My recent query was for more specific use case scenarios that I wanted advice about, things that have been answered by others like parking at Tesco etc, and Plissken's very useful post too.

So again, I apologise for appearing to be condescending as that was not my intention.

[Rick_Muller]

Took me a short while to realise it, myself. When using public chargers, charge what you need, not what you can.

I'm guessing its easy to choose how much you want to charge then?

[Taffy on the wing]

How good would it be if we could get battery technology to a point where you can swap the battery out when it is low for a fully charged one and just plug it in? We could repurpose petrol stations to be charge/battery swap stations. You could ask for different amounts just as you can fill up for different amounts.
Drive up, slect the amount/range you want on an app or a screen and it lights up to plug your old one in and another lights up and you unplug and plug into your car...a bit like when you go shopping and get your own hand held zapper. No waiting around to charge.

Makes sense but the technology is years away.

I believe the Chinese now have a system that can fully charge in 5 minutes or less.

[Taffy on the wing]

Speaking of Chinese...I haven't seen any mention of BYD on here. I saw one at Yorkshire sculpture park in Summer & it was a very good looking car. They are banned in the US so this was my first look.
Does anyone on here own one?

[Rick_Muller]

Speaking of Chinese...I haven't seen any mention of BYD on here. I saw one at Yorkshire sculpture park in Summer & it was a very good looking car. They are banned in the US so this was my first look.
Does anyone on here own one?

dont own one, but test drove the Seal - it was lovely to drive, much nicer than the Tesla Model 3. I was also trying to hold off for the Xiaomi SU7 which looks a stunning car - is that also banned in the US?

[Taffy on the wing]

Probably...if it's Chinese. I've never heard of it before.

[basil6345789]

Aren't the ball-bags usually driving them?

No, they're still on Audis

[exilecanada]

I’m curious as to what has motivated you guys to delve into the world of electric cars? They appear to ridiculously expensive to buy and the charging infrastructure, although improving, is still not as handy as nippy into a petrol station. And as far as I can gather, the cost of battery replacement is currently unknown.

[dougcollins]

I’m curious as to what has motivated you guys to delve into the world of electric cars? They appear to ridiculously expensive to buy and the charging infrastructure, although improving, is still not as handy as nippy into a petrol station. And as far as I can gather, the cost of battery replacement is currently unknown.

Let's just say we're being pushed.

[Oshkoshclaret]

I’m curious as to what has motivated you guys to delve into the world of electric cars? They appear to ridiculously expensive to buy and the charging infrastructure, although improving, is still not as handy as nippy into a petrol station. And as far as I can gather, the cost of battery replacement is currently unknown.

I have a 2020 Tesla Model 3 dual motor long range with 90K miles on it. I paid $17K for it (after the $4K rebate) last December. Charge at home using a level 2 charger that the electric company installed for free. It has been by a million miles the best driving experience I’ve ever had. Accelerates like a supercar, and with full self driving the car literally drives me to work without touching the steering wheel. I recently filled up my occasional use Ford F150 with gas and a single fill up cost more than I have spent on electricity for my daily driver 9 months ago.

[Plissken]

I'm guessing its easy to choose how much you want to charge then?

For a public charger, I just keep an eye on the app for the charging point or the screen on the charging point itself and hit the stop button when ready to do so.

[Plissken]

I’m curious as to what has motivated you guys to delve into the world of electric cars? They appear to ridiculously expensive to buy and the charging infrastructure, although improving, is still not as handy as nippy into a petrol station. And as far as I can gather, the cost of battery replacement is currently unknown.

Because the charging infrastructure is just as handy as nipping into a petrol station - I can't have a petrol pump attached to my house. And the battery replacement cost is 0, considering my own car has it warrantied for 100,000 miles.

[basil6345789]

Where's all the electricity going to come from - a cable from France?

[Caballo]

How good would it be if we could get battery technology to a point where you can swap the battery out when it is low for a fully charged one and just plug it in? We could repurpose petrol stations to be charge/battery swap stations. You could ask for different amounts just as you can fill up for different amounts.
Drive up, slect the amount/range you want on an app or a screen and it lights up to plug your old one in and another lights up and you unplug and plug into your car...a bit like when you go shopping and get your own hand held zapper. No waiting around to charge.

Makes sense but the technology is years away.

It's actually not, there's a Chinese company, I think it's Neo are currently trialling exactly that in Norway, they've a thousand vehicles on test with a cartridge type battery system, 5 mins to change at a designated centre. The issue at the moment is the size of thr cartridge limiting the range.

[exilecanada]

I have a 2020 Tesla Model 3 dual motor long range with 90K miles on it. I paid $17K for it (after the $4K rebate) last December. Charge at home using a level 2 charger that the electric company installed for free. It has been by a million miles the best driving experience I’ve ever had. Accelerates like a supercar, and with full self driving the car literally drives me to work without touching the steering wheel. I recently filled up my occasional use Ford F150 with gas and a single fill up cost more than I have spent on electricity for my daily driver 9 months ago.

Are the batteries under warranty for 100,000 miles as another poster mentioned? Ya, I would imagine filling up an F150 would be stressful on the CC One could buy plenty of cheese for that amount of $$$

[exilecanada]

Because the charging infrastructure is just as handy as nipping into a petrol station - I can't have a petrol pump attached to my house. And the battery replacement cost is 0, considering my own car has it warrantied for 100,000 miles.

Good your area has plenty of charging stations. One would imagine you’d sell the vehicle before it reached the magic 100K miles? Otherwise it could become a large paperweight?

[Bosscat]

Aren't the ball-bags usually driving them?

[No Ney Never]

How interesting reading back over the first couple of pages, shows how in 7 years, EV's have gone from niche to mainstream. We've also gone from a choice of either a Leaf, Zoe, Twizzy or Tesla, to the vast range now available.

[Plissken]

Good your area has plenty of charging stations. One would imagine you’d sell the vehicle before it reached the magic 100K miles? Otherwise it could become a large paperweight?

You do know there are more public charging points in the UK than petrol pumps, right?

And do people usually sell ICE cars when the warranty runs out?

[Sutton-Claret]

This is an interesting video in terms of costs - I'm almost tempted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1aI7EfSnmE

[Holmechapel]

What’s going to happen when these cars get 80,000 on the clock ? surely the people who used to run old bangers because they couldn’t afford anything better aren’t going to risk buying a car whose battery may pack in within a year or so.

[Plissken]

So what is the difference if they can't afford anything better than an old ICE banger that might pack up within a year or so?

[Sutton-Claret]

What’s going to happen when these cars get 80,000 on the clock ? surely the people who used to run old bangers because they couldn’t afford anything better aren’t going to risk buying a car whose battery may pack in within a year or so.

The Tesla in the video I posted above had 266k on the clock and still around 80% of battery health

[aggi]

What’s going to happen when these cars get 80,000 on the clock ? surely the people who used to run old bangers because they couldn’t afford anything better aren’t going to risk buying a car whose battery may pack in within a year or so.

Generally it's not going to be a case of batteries just go from working to not working, more that the capacity gradually falls away.

So they may end up as second cars for shorter journeys or bought by those who don't do many long journeys.

The plan is that the batteries get recycled into static battery packs (eg at an industrial estate or something) where the power density isn't that important as you have plenty of space for more batteries. Don't know how much that is actually happening though.

[Plissken]

Which is exactly how it works for ICE cars now.

[Holmechapel]

So what is the difference if they can't afford anything better than an old ICE banger that might pack up within a year or so?

Many who had old bangers could fettle them and as long as the didn’t rust away could be run for years( not against electric cars )

[Plissken]

There is a shed load more than can go wrong with an old ICE banger than an old EV simply because it has a lot more moving parts.

Kinda weird that people see an 100,000 mile warranty on an EV battery and say they expect it to drop dead at 100,001 miles. Many manufacturers offer 100,000 (or less!) warranties on ICE cars and don't expect them to drop dead at warranty +1 mile.

And before anyone tries to bother with "new tech, unreliable compared to ICE", google the Ford Ecoboost wet belt issue, or the BMW N47 and N57 engines, the latter two of which were practically guaranteed to blow up within 30,000 miles without frequent specialist maintenance.

[ŽižkovClaret]

How good would it be if we could get battery technology to a point where you can swap the battery out when it is low for a fully charged one and just plug it in? We could repurpose petrol stations to be charge/battery swap stations. You could ask for different amounts just as you can fill up for different amounts.
Drive up, slect the amount/range you want on an app or a screen and it lights up to plug your old one in and another lights up and you unplug and plug into your car...a bit like when you go shopping and get your own hand held zapper. No waiting around to charge.

Makes sense but the technology is years away.

It has been a thing, but it pushes the cost basis of the deprecated batteries on to the provider, although it could be done on a subscription model i guess making the entry cost reasonable?

[Plissken]

On the go replacement battery tech is a solution in search of a problem.

[1fatclaret]

The latest offers from Ford on the Puma are wild. No deposit, £221 a month for 4yrs, with free servicing, a free home charger and 10,000 free miles worth of electric. It's only on 5k annual mileage, but still!

With 6.4 ppm for excess miles even if you add 10,000 a year it’s only another £55 per month. Difference is, you get to keep hold of the extra cash until you hand the car back. Terrible car but an insanely cheap deal. Wonder if it’s being used to massage theyr figures in terms of units of BEV’s as a percentage of sales.

[Herts Clarets]

If all the ICE vehicles on the road today were replaced by EVs, where is the generating capacity to charge all these additional vehicles coming from?

[Leon_C]

How interesting reading back over the first couple of pages, shows how in 7 years, EV's have gone from niche to mainstream. We've also gone from a choice of either a Leaf, Zoe, Twizzy or Tesla, to the vast range now available.

On the go replacement battery tech is a solution in search of a problem.

China has adopted this technology at some scale, but I gather that it's not seen as favourably by the industry over here.
One hurdle is that the batteries in many EVs are structural (as the 'skateboard deck' for want of a better analogy'.) That means that it's not just like swapping a few AA's - it's an engineering project. The Chinese are managing it in under a couple of minutes in some cases.

I find this discourse fascinating too, NNN. I ordered my first EV in summer 2018, and took delivery in early 2019 - around the time that this thread started.

It's interesting to see the immediate and unconditional dismissal of technology and cynicism by some... I had similar on a thread I started about AI, a couple of months ago. Some clearly enjoyed following the evolution of the technology - others didn't understand it, so therefore ruled out its utility.

Technology marches on, regardless of the opinions of the detractors.

Hydrogen sounds great on paper, but in reality it’s not the silver bullet people think. Making, transporting and pumping hydrogen wastes loads of energy - most of what you start with is lost before it even gets to the wheels. Battery EVs are way more efficient. Charge straight from the grid and you’re using most of what you put in.

On top of that, there are already millions of chargers being rolled out, whereas hydrogen stations are rare and insanely expensive to build. And batteries are getting cheaper and better every year.

Hydrogen will probably find a role in heavy trucks or ships, but for everyday use on our roads it just can’t compete.

[Plissken]

If all the ICE vehicles on the road today were replaced by EVs, where is the generating capacity to charge all these additional vehicles coming from?

You seen that big yellow thing in the sky most days? And that air movement thingy. If only there was some way to harness that...

[Plissken]

China has adopted this technology at some scale, but I gather that it's not seen as favourably by the industry over here.
One hurdle is that the batteries in many EVs are structural (as the 'skateboard deck' for want of a better analogy'.) That means that it's not just like swapping a few AA's - it's an engineering project. The Chinese are managing it in under a couple of minutes in some cases.

The other is that the solution is... just wait 20 minutes.

I get that isn't always a solution in a huge country like the US, which leaves charging infrastructure to the free market. I'll always be first in the queue to kick Elon Musk square in the plums but what I will give him credit for is building the Supercharger network because he knew that the fuel companies were not going to do it for him and without it, Tesla were dead in the water.

But I've long thought that eventually chargers would turn out like petrol stations - you have competing companies but they all offer the same service. The fact that Tesla were forced to open up their network and the companies are standardising on a single connector type shows this happened.

[Herts Clarets]

You seen that big yellow thing in the sky most days? And that air movement thingy. If only there was some way to harness that...

UK generating capacity from wind and solar is around 48GW as at the end of 2024. There are almost 42m vehicles on the road, of which 1.6m are EVs. If we are to convert the remaining ICEs to EVs, that is an additional 40m vehicles requiring electricity to charge. Apparently the average daily usage of an EV is around 4kwh covering 12 miles per day. To generate the electricity to charge these new vehicles would take 160GW assuminng it is both sunny and windy at the same time to generate maximum solar and wind power. So to be more specific, how will the additional 112GW required to power all these EVs be generated? You need to quadruple the current generating capacity to provide the electricity and when it is neither sunny nor windy, does the UK have sufficient generating capacity to fill this gap?

[Rick_Muller]

UK generating capacity from wind and solar is around 48GW as at the end of 2024.

Is that actual current capacity or future possible capacity?

[Plissken]

UK generating capacity from wind and solar is around 48GW as at the end of 2024. There are almost 42m vehicles on the road, of which 1.6m are EVs. If we are to convert the remaining ICEs to EVs, that is an additional 40m vehicles requiring electricity to charge. Apparently the average daily usage of an EV is around 4kwh covering 12 miles per day. To generate the electricity to charge these new vehicles would take 160GW assuminng it is both sunny and windy at the same time to generate maximum solar and wind power. So to be more specific, how will the additional 112GW required to power all these EVs be generated? You need to quadruple the current generating capacity to provide the electricity and when it is neither sunny nor windy, does the UK have sufficient generating capacity to fill this gap?

Proof that just because people use statistics, they don't understand them.

First up, we've just switched 40mn cars from ICE to EV. That would be an impressive trick, considering total UK new car sales last year were just under 2mn. But hey, lets pretend that we've done 20 times that in the blink of an eye in this imaginary world.

And then all those 40mn cars are on the road every day. Doing a 12 mile journey. And then, for some reason, every one of those 40mn cars get plugged in each night to top up those 12 miles, despite the fact that the battery has a range of 200-300 miles and cars have regen capability that puts some energy back into the battery while driving. I mean, having to accept those parameters that would be utterly stupid and ludicrous, but like I say, you've read some numbers so well done you.

But again, lets take your 112GW number as gospel.

"UK generating capacity from wind and solar is around 48GW as at the end of 2024"

Right. Here is where you read statistics but don't understand them. Power is measured in watts. Capacity is measured in watt-hours. A Gigawatt hour (GWh) is the ability to provide 1GW of power for one hour.

This is why my car has 310KW of power, and an 82KWh battery. Running the motors are full speed will drain the battery in about 16 minutes. (82/310 = 0.2645. 0.2645*60 = 15.87, so 15 minutes 50 seconds.)

UK renewables provide 48GWh of capacity per day - or 48GW of capacity every hour.

So to provide 112GW of extra power for your mythical 40mn vehicles doing ludicrously unrealistic amounts of charging requires slightly under 2 1/2 hours per day of existing renewable capacity.

And when you find out that not only can some cars regenerate energy during driving, but then plug into the grid and feed some excess capacity back then that's really going to bake your noodle.

[CoolClaret]

does the UK have sufficient generating capacity to fill this gap?

Yep - wind farms are often curtailed because we don't yet have the infrastructure in place to harness all of their actual generation power.

Give it another 5-10 years when we start implementing more smart grid technology and hopefully start rebuilding onshore (and more offshore) wind farms in sites with favourable wind conditions (absolutely get this offshore, talking 80%+ annual wind conditions at turbine rated speed) and we will be laughing.

Some of the new turbines provide enough electricity from one revolution of the turbine at rated wind speed to meet the demand of the average UK household for two weeks.

[Shaggy]

Wind turbines are not the answer. A couple of Nuclear power plants are.

[CoolClaret]

Wind turbines are not the answer. A couple of Nuclear power plants are.

Aye course they aren't Shaggy - what credentials do you have to make such a claim?