Major shock in Copeland by election..

smudge · Post by **smudge** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:22 pm

What Rowls means by using statements like(unthinking ignorance)only he knows.
I like many others find this uncaring and right wing government deeply depressing.
As someone who as always supported Labour I can only hope that sometime in the near future Corbyn will step down .
To say that there is nobody in the Labour party who is willing to come forward and fight and win the next election is just not true.

mkmel · Post by **mkmel** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:44 pm

Rowls wrote:It's this kind of unthinking ignorance that allowed the Labour party to stagnate into the mess it is today.

You've got the Labour Party your dictum deserves mkmel.

Or maybe the reason I have never voted Tory and realistically never will may have something to do with them never being a caring party and never helping the poorest and the disadvantaged and never looking after anyone's interests apart from the middle and upper classes in society.

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:06 pm

Comrade Jezza is doing a fine job imho. The longer he stays leader of the Labour Party, the better.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:54 pm

mkmel wrote:Or maybe the reason I have never voted Tory and realistically never will may have something to do with them never being a caring party and never helping the poorest and the disadvantaged and never looking after anyone's interests apart from the middle and upper classes in society.

Not forgetting their mates the large employers baring a few.

UpTheClaretsFCBK · Post by **UpTheClaretsFCBK** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:24 pm

mkmel wrote:I'm sure there are a lot of lifelong Labour supporters like me who will not vote Labour while Corbyn is Leader and who would also rather stick needles in their eyes than vote Tory

Labour have always been too right wing while I've been able to vote. Now Corbyn is in office, they've got my vote.

I am from a socialist background. I wouldn't call myself a Communist or a Marxist, but I believe the system should be much fairer.

mkmel · Post by **mkmel** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:27 pm

If Labour have been too right wing for you then the Tories must have been further to the right than Genghis Khan!

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:46 pm

[quote="Colburn_Claret"]That has always been the issue. Two parties fighting their own extremists. The middle of the road is right, and the party that wins the fight for those middle Englanders inevitably wins the election.
Jeremy has no hope. He's trying to sell something even a majority of Labour supporters don't want.[/quote

I think that you will find that the vast majority of members do want.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:48 pm

Thing is, thats Corbyns core vote, but unless he can convince more people that are not his natural supporters (and who view him very negatively at best, and total contempt at worst) then he's not going to win anything.

Lab members will keep voting for him, but that does not, and never will, constitute enough votes to win an election.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:56 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thing is, thats Corbyns core vote, but unless he can convince more people that are not his natural supporters (and who view him very negatively at best, and total contempt at worst) then he's not going to win anything.

Lab members will keep voting for him, but that does not, and never will, constitute enough votes to win an election.

Patience old fruit patience.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:59 pm

South West Claret. wrote:

The number of votes Corbyn had to be elected leader is less than 5% of the Labour vote at the last General Election

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:01 pm

Deep down, the Wolfie Smith's know he'll never be in power.

They just like a good shout on an afternoons demo.

dermotdermot · Post by **dermotdermot** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:06 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:post 37..dermotdermot..you describe JC as 'undemocratic' in that post..

I am no fan of JC but could you please explain clearly how he is 'undemocratic'?..perhaps with some examples..?

Hampstead,

He does not embrace democracy. He is a prime example of a man so entrenched in his extreme left wing views that he thinks that everyone in his party should tow the line and think the same as him. Given the power to lead his party, who were, in turn, trying to act in a democratic fashion when they foolishly nominated him to run for leader, he has now turned into a fascist, a person who will go to any length to impose his will on others. Possibly the worst example of inverted socialism.

Eighty per cent of his parliamentary colleagues want him gone but that doesn't matter to him. He does what he wants and pays no heed to others in his party, clinging to the belief that he was democratically elected by the paid up 'members' of his party. A complete and utter stitch-up job.

He didn't follow the party line over brexit and, even if he had have done, it would probably have created an adverse reaction, as most of the voting public have already found him to be just so odious. He then pretends to embrace democracy by whipping MP's into voting along with the government to implement a 'hard brexit' as this is what 'the people' have voted for. For me this doesn't tally with the fact that he has spent his elected life voting against not just the opposition party but just about everything his own party put forward and stood for when in government. He probably even voted against the Good Friday agreement which successfully halted the war in Northern Ireland. It probably went against his support for the IRA and a united Ireland.

All this while he has been drawing down a hefty wage as a 'Labour' MP, even heftier now that he is leader. He is a complete and utter phony , unprincipled and just plain horrible. I don't know how we can get rid of him. He has caused irreparable damage to the Labour Party

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:14 pm

57...'I think that you will find that the vast majority of members do want..'

- and there we have it.

that comment almost says...'we don't care what some Labour supporters might want in terms of policy [that is..potentially millions of them]..
We the members are going to push forward our views/our plans with JC...like it or lump it.

It is that sort of 'out of touch-ness'..that sort of arrogance, that turns people off and makes Corbyn completely unelectable in almost any circumstances.
I have voted Labour nearly always, but I cannot vote for JC...mainly because he cannot win.
I barely know who to vote for now, to be honest.

The Referendum is done, Teresa May is here for a while...the way things are set up right now, there will be a Tory victory in 2020...I am not going to get too excited about Politics for a while. JC is not going anywhere, and he/Labour will lose that Election. JC will then disappear and Labour will re-group behind a new leader who can give them a fighting chance...what happens in Scotland and also boundary changes will affect that. There are good talented Labour MPs in Parliament and when the time is right [definitely not now] three or four of them will come forward, and go for the top job.

UKIP and the Lib-Dems - not sure where these two are going but they are both in a mess, to a greater or lesser extent...some re-grouping is likely/necessary and there may yet be the formation of a brand new party, in the centre ground.

There it is..an amateur's view of where we are. It doesn't make great reading.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:16 pm

South West Claret. wrote:

Unfortunately for you and Jeremy the number of members is miniscule compared to the number of people who once voted for them in a general election.
I am a member and you have just reminded me I need to cancel my direct debit. Cheers.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:45 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:
The Referendum is done, Teresa May is here for a while...the way things are set up right now, there will be a Tory victory in 2020...I am not going to get too excited about Politics for a while. .

At present I would also anticipate a big Tory victory in 2020. However, - there will be 2 years of negotiations on Brexit in the interim period. I don't advocate a 2nd referendum, but if things go badly wrong in those negotiations, (and I mean badly wrong), and Trump proves to be an unreliable ally, then there is a scenario in which the Tories, (pressurised by big business and the banks) could completely split over Europe, and a united left of centre alliance could be in with a chance ... under the right leader.
For this reason, Labour must get its act together quickly, and become a credible opposition.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:45 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Unfortunately for you and Jeremy the number of members is miniscule compared to the number of people who once voted for them in a general election.
I am a member and you have just reminded me I need to cancel my direct debit. Cheers.

As you choose CC and if you want to take your like minded colleagues with you so much the better in the long term.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:05 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:57...'I think that you will find that the vast majority of members do want..'

- and there we have it.

that comment almost says...'we don't care what some Labour supporters might want in terms of policy [that is..potentially millions of them]..
We the members are going to push forward our views/our plans with JC...like it or lump it.

It is that sort of 'out of touch-ness'..that sort of arrogance, that turns people off and makes Corbyn completely unelectable in almost any circumstances.
I have voted Labour nearly always, but I cannot vote for JC...mainly because he cannot win.
I barely know who to vote for now, to be honest.

The Referendum is done, Teresa May is here for a while...the way things are set up right now, there will be a Tory victory in 2020...I am not going to get too excited about Politics for a while. JC is not going anywhere, and he/Labour will lose that Election. JC will then disappear and Labour will re-group behind a new leader who can give them a fighting chance...what happens in Scotland and also boundary changes will affect that. There are good talented Labour MPs in Parliament and when the time is right [definitely not now] three or four of them will come forward, and go for the top job.

UKIP and the Lib-Dems - not sure where these two are going but they are both in a mess, to a greater or lesser extent...some re-grouping is likely/necessary and there may yet be the formation of a brand new party, in the centre ground.

There it is..an amateur's view of where we are. It doesn't make great reading.

I agree with your analysis to a large degree, Hampstead..

The " Corbynista " group are essentially not interested in focussing on electoral victory, unless it is on their very narrow terms. They seek an idealogically pure " Left wing " party, and in their pursuit of this, they are prepared to forgo any chance of winning in 2020.They fail to see that they may have to compromise, in order to broaden their appeal and gain electoral success. But without winning at the ballot box, they cannot help the people they profess to want to help. I honestly think some of them are happier in " Perpetual Opposition ", going on marches, organising petitions, protesting against this and that, than actually occupying the Government benches & making the tough decisions that are inevitable.

There are two questions that the pollsters, for all their faults, tend to rely on: " Who would make the best PM ? " & " Which party do you most trust on the Economy ? ". No party has ever won a GE when trailing on both these measures. Whither Corbyn & McDonnell ?

Labour show no sign of a resurgence in Scotland & Boundary changes will work against them, if they go through as proposed. UKIP will gradually wither as Brexit becomes more inevitable & I think the Lib/Dems will have a great chance to revive, appealing to disillusioned Labour voters and left of centre Conservatives and will regain the protest votes for which they were once a usefull repository.

I was a Leave voter, based largely on Sovereignty, supremacy of Parliament, Border controls and ability to make our own laws. I'm an ex Labour party member, and it saddens me to see Labour failing to provide an effective and coherent opposition to the current administration..

As you say...another amateur's view...

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:16 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:At present I would also anticipate a big Tory victory in 2020. However, - there will be 2 years of negotiations on Brexit in the interim period. I don't advocate a 2nd referendum, but if things go badly wrong in those negotiations, (and I mean badly wrong), and Trump proves to be an unreliable ally, then there is a scenario in which the Tories, (pressurised by big business and the banks) could completely split over Europe, and a united left of centre alliance could be in with a chance ... under the right leader.
For this reason, Labour must get its act together quickly, and become a credible opposition.

Hi nil_d, what do you define as "badly wrong" in the negotiations? TM has already said to the effect of "it's either a good deal for both UK and EU or it's no deal." I think she's set things out that a "no deal" is "acceptable" to her, which I think is clever negotiating, knowing that most likely the EU will also want a better deal - if only because a "no deal" will "cost" the EU more than it will "cost" the UK. (Cost not necessarily measured in GBP/Euro).

But, if it is a "no deal" how will any other political group improve on that deal? It also requires the EU to agree. We should assume "no deal" is because the EU hasn't agreed - and they want the UK out of EU. Surely, there can be no political success in wanting to return to EU membership, if this is the situation?

I believe the banks are already moving to a place where they are comfortable with the UK outside the EU. Similarly, "big business" is showing it is comfortable. Big business likes stability and certainty, they don't worry to much about the particular forms of government, so long as there is stability. At the moment it appears that there will be more stability in the UK and outside the EU that there will be inside the EU. (Let's see what the politics in the EU looks like at the end of this year and let's see where the euro is).

Yes, political power is all about who controls the centre. With Copeland it looks like TM has a better chance of doing that than a new "united left of centre alliance...."

Just my view, of course.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:20 pm

Rowls wrote:Yes it is partly a cycle spijed but I don't think you've got the point I was making.

mkmel always trots out his silly "NEVER vote Conservative" line. But people should vote for the party who best represents their interests or reflects their opinions.

The idea that you should NEVER vote for a party simply just "because" and without reasoning is anathema to proper political debate. I'd happily vote for a Labour candidate if they abandoned the failed doctrine of socialism, accepted the idea of the nation state, were willing to back nuclear energy, trident, lower taxes, work to help businesses etc etc.

We should save partisanship for football. When it comes to politics we shouldn't care what colour the rosette is, only what the candidates stand for.

That, as he has made apparent on many occasion, is beyond the wit of mkmel.

I am a life long tory but thought I would vote against the grain. Tony Blair.

Only the once.

Looking back not a good move.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:33 pm

Hi Paul,
I think the last thing that this board or thread needs is another debate about brexit, (agreed?), so I won't attempt to define "badly wrong". All I was suggesting is that although the Tory party has united over brexit for the present, 2 years is a long time, and if over 2 years of pursuing a "hard brexit" it is perceived to be massively detrimental to some of the Tory constituencies that voted strongly for remain, then it is not inconceivable that some Tory MPs will be under pressure to split with Mrs May. That's purely a hypothetical scenario, but it can't be ruled out. (It's possibly about as likely as Trump being elected !!!)

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:17 pm

I think Corbyn should stand down and make way for the lovely and talented Diane Abbott.

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:31 pm

What's going on with the LibDems? They lost 17.5% of their vote in Stoke.

pauliopaulio · Post by **pauliopaulio** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:34 pm

Part of the problem is the level of denial from Corbyn, McDonnell and their supporters.

The message that they are not connecting with the majority of traditional Labour voters (or MPs) seems to be completely lost on them. I honestly can't fathom it - whilst their commitment to standing firm to a set of principles should be applauded instead of 'New' Labour's "win at all costs" philosophy surely there must be a time when pragmatism and offering a credible alternative to the government must become more important than staying true but unpopular.

pauliopaulio · Post by **pauliopaulio** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:37 pm

ontario claret wrote:What's going on with the LibDems? They lost 17.5% of their vote in Stoke.

I think the Lib Dems are dead as a party. The abandonment of their manifesto / principles during their time in coalition has made them a pariah for most of their former supporters (me included). They had so much potential / hope in 2010 but got it completely wrong in power.

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:39 pm

Didn't they win the previous by-election in Richmond?

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:41 pm

I agree they got suckered by going into coalition, but surely there are die-hards (like me) who will carry the flag.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:21 pm

ontario claret wrote:What's going on with the LibDems? They lost 17.5% of their vote in Stoke.

How do you work that out?
According to the stats they increased their vote share in Stoke from around 4% to almost 10%
They also doubled their vote share in Copeland putting them in 3rd place ahead of UKip.

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:32 pm

Yes, you're quite right, nil. I must have been looking at the last general election results. Time for my nap, now.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:06 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Hi Paul,
I think the last thing that this board or thread needs is another debate about brexit, (agreed?), so I won't attempt to define "badly wrong". All I was suggesting is that although the Tory party has united over brexit for the present, 2 years is a long time, and if over 2 years of pursuing a "hard brexit" it is perceived to be massively detrimental to some of the Tory constituencies that voted strongly for remain, then it is not inconceivable that some Tory MPs will be under pressure to split with Mrs May. That's purely a hypothetical scenario, but it can't be ruled out. (It's possibly about as likely as Trump being elected !!!)

OK, we will leave Brexit out of it.

I can't see any major splits in TM's party for the medium term. Yes, there are always right wing and centrist parts to the Tory party. I think JC and the Labour party divisions are all that is required for TM to keep the Tory party together and in government. TM has set herself up to take the centre ground. I'm sure a lot of strategy will go into keeping her successful. I don't mean that there won't be "stresses and strains" or that everything will work out well. I do think that her platform for "power" is as strong as Tony Blair's was when he came to power in 1997. So, it will be a surprise if she doesn't win the next general election. If things go very well, and she continues to have the "appetite for power" it is not impossible that she will also win the GE after that. However, that is a long time in politics and none of us should be projecting so far ahead.

So long as Burnley remain in the Premier League that's all we want.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:16 am

pauliopaulio wrote:I think the Lib Dems are dead as a party. The abandonment of their manifesto / principles during their time in coalition has made them a pariah for most of their former supporters (me included). They had so much potential / hope in 2010 but got it completely wrong in power.

The irony of the Lib-Dems is that they were only a "protest" party. In 2010 Nick Clegg and his party never expected to be asked to implement any of their election pledges, so pledges were "cheaply made." But, their supporters believed the pledges...

However, I've got great respect for Lib-Dems joining the coalition - it was the only good choice for the country at the time. They weren't suckered into coalition. I think they realised if the joined the coalition that they'd be "found out" for their unrealistic pledges and revealed as no more than a protest party - i.e. not fit for government on their own.

I agree that their loss of support from their previous supporters is because they didn't deliver "no student fees" and didn't deliver "proportional representation." But, I feel they lost more votes for the way Nick Clegg (and Vince Cable) tried to distance themselves from the coalition government - it made them appear hypocritical and disloyal.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:20 am

smudge wrote:What Rowls means by using statements like(unthinking ignorance)only he knows.

Actually, the thing I was talking about was referenced directly in my post. If you cannot work out what that is then good luck to you.

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:I believe the system should be much fairer.

Good call. If Labour & COrbyn stand on a pledge to make the country "fairer" they will surely win the next election, won't they? Especially if the Conservatives pledge to make the country less fair. The standard of debate on here is on an never-ending upward trajectory.

mkmel wrote:Or maybe the reason I have never voted Tory and realistically never will may have something to do with them never being a caring party and never helping the poorest and the disadvantaged and never looking after anyone's interests apart from the middle and upper classes in society.

Nah, the thing with you mkmel is that the justification always comes after you trot out the old "you must never vote Tory" BS. That's choosing the facts to suit your opinions. You should try thinking the other way round - choose your opinions to follow the facts.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:04 am

When People like Owen Jones has turned their backs on Corbyn then your know your struggling, what they don't realize is that getting rid of Corbyn won't solve their problems, its their hard left ideology.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:32 am

Not sure that he's turned his back on Corybn, more that he's had enough arguing with his more batshit supporters, who basically accuse him of being a stooge of the right.

Hilarious but not good, as the people who think that also think that JC is only doing so badly because of everything, except JC.

LIb Dems had to go into coalition, had to compromise and had to learn from the experience. They will be back

UpTheClaretsFCBK · Post by **UpTheClaretsFCBK** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:42 am

Rowls wrote:Actually, the thing I was talking about was referenced directly in my post. If you cannot work out what that is then good luck to you.

Good call. If Labour & COrbyn stand on a pledge to make the country "fairer" they will surely win the next election, won't they? Especially if the Conservatives pledge to make the country less fair. The standard of debate on here is on an never-ending upward trajectory.

Nah, the thing with you mkmel is that the justification always comes after you trot out the old "you must never vote Tory" BS. That's choosing the facts to suit your opinions. You should try thinking the other way round - choose your opinions to follow the facts.

If you wade through the media doctoring and idol promises, Labour and Corbyn will pledge to make the system fairer and the Tories will continue to help their friends in big business, while scrapegoating the most vulnerable in society. I've avoided going into detail because this is a football forum at the end of the day and I don't see the point in putting my argument across to people, who would never share my views in a million years. Your hostile attitude is everything that's wrong with modern debate.

smudge · Post by **smudge** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:48 am

I've tried to work it out as you put it Rowls but due to you're superior intellect I sometimes find this difficult.
Words like (unthinking ignorance) are just beyond me sorry.

smudge · Post by **smudge** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:29 am

Anyway setting off to Hull now Rowls lets hope for a better result than the Copeland by election.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:43 pm

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:If you wade through the media doctoring and idol promises, Labour and Corbyn will pledge to make the system fairer and the Tories will continue to help their friends in big business, while scrapegoating the most vulnerable in society. I've avoided going into detail because this is a football forum at the end of the day and I don't see the point in putting my argument across to people, who would never share my views in a million years. Your hostile attitude is everything that's wrong with modern debate.

Ah I see! You want to engage in debate without engaging in debate!

And the policy you'd like to see is "a fairer Britain". I do hope it will be fairer for families. Especially hard-working families.

Personally, I believe that one should always do the right thing and put your best foot forward.

UpTheClaretsFCBK · Post by **UpTheClaretsFCBK** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:30 pm

Rowls wrote:Ah I see! You want to engage in debate without engaging in debate!

And the policy you'd like to see is "a fairer Britain". I do hope it will be fairer for families. Especially hard-working families.

Personally, I believe that one should always do the right thing and put your best foot forward.

No, I don't want to engage at all. If you read my comment, I've clearly stated as much. My views are my own and I've put forward a broad spectrum of what they are. A debate implies I wish to argue with you and I've no desire to do that.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:47 pm

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:No, I don't want to engage at all. If you read my comment, I've clearly stated as much. My views are my own and I've put forward a broad spectrum of what they are. A debate implies I wish to argue with you and I've no desire to do that.

I'd like to take the opportunity to thank you for "not engaging" the debate by using the quote function to not engage with me. It's been marvellous.

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:13 pm

In Canada, we have the Liberal Party, also known as the Natural Governing Party. We have less entrenched special interests in Canada, so the Conservatives get in every once in a while, but never stay for long. What the Liberals should be, "democratic" or not, is a middle-of-the-road third alternative to the extreme positions of the left or right. That's what we have in Canada, and what makes Canada so liveable.