Sunday Supplement

[DAVETHEVICAR]

Sean Custis suggesting referees are not helped by players when getting decisions wrong.
Saying Sam could have told the referee he was the player who handled the ball.
What an idiot.
Did Arsenal's centre half tell the referee he doubled handed the winning goal at Turf Moor.?

[ClaretAndJew]

You just know that if this was a big club that he would have never said that.

And of course we didn't deserve it, but the blatant foul on Mee leading up to the goal (again!) isn't discussed.

It's the referees job to spot and make decisions. End of story.

[MACCA]

Another major decision the officials got wrong, which could have been sorted out in 10 seconds.

Fortunately for Swansea it didn't cost them the well deserved 3 points.

Seems like we are talking about match changing wrong decisions every week now, however the referees would help themselves massively if they were consistent with things like diving and dissent.

[ClaretTony]

Strangely, sat behind that goal I didn't spot either of the big errors from Taylor - I didn't see the handball at all and neither did I see the clear foul on Ben Mee for their winner.

Two shocking decisions from Taylor.

[Spijed]

Another major decision the officials got wrong, which could have been sorted out in 10 seconds.

Fortunately for Swansea it didn't cost them the well deserved 3 points.

Seems like we are talking about match changing wrong decisions every week now, however the referees would help themselves massively if they were consistent with things like diving and dissent.

What about the age old debate - hand to ball, ball to hand etc.?

That would take more than 10 seconds to sort out though.

[MACCA]

Strangely, sat behind that goal I didn't spot either of the big errors from Taylor - I didn't see the handball at all and neither did I see the clear foul on Ben Mee for their winner.

Two shocking decisions from Taylor.

Been on a 3 day stag do in Marbella this week, maybe he still had his beer goggles on.
( yes he really has, along with several other official apparently )

[MACCA]

What about the age old debate - hand to ball, ball to hand etc.?

That would take more than 10 seconds to sort out though.

No it wouldn't, it is a very easy decision with 3 quick questions.
Did the ball hit Mawsons hand? No
Did it hit Vokes hand? Yes
Is it a Burnley penalty? No

IMO, I think if your arms/hands are above your shoulder height it is instant hand ball.

[Spijed]

No it wouldn't, it is a very easy decision with 3 quick questions.
Did the ball hit Mawsons hand? No
Did it hit Vokes hand? Yes
Is it a Burnley penalty? No

IMO, I think if your arms/hands are above your shoulder height it is instant hand ball.

What about the Arsenal one at the Turf though?

Apparently a player is allowed to block a ball if it's going to hit him in the face. Situations like that will still cause plenty of debate.

[claretspice]

The handball is unusually clear cut, so unusually suited to video technology.

Apart from offside, the fact of the matter is that virtually every other decision in football - even the Mee foul at the end, which we all agree is a foul - is more subjective. It isnt easily judged definitively from a single camera angle.

[MACCA]

Are his hands above his shoulder? Yes
Is that a natural position? No
Is it a goal? No

Easy

Same with Sanchez for Arsenal v Hull, no goal.

If a player in a wall covered his face with both hands it would be blown for a free kick the other way instantly. You do not need to cover your face/head at any point during a football match.

[claretspice]

Are his hands above his shoulder? Yes
Is that a natural position? No
Is it a goal? No

Easy

Same with Sanchez for Arsenal v Hull, no goal.

If a player in a wall covered his face with both hands it would be blown for a free kick the other way instantly. You do not need to cover your face/head at any point during a football match.

But it isnt that simple. It never is for video refs. Thats why they take ages deliberating over fairly clear cut decisions in other sports where there is a black and white answer. If they are introduced in football, where the answers are rarely so black and white, there should be no doubt it would take a long time.

[minnieclaret]

Has Taylor confirmed it was given for handball?
A hawkeye, on the match thread, pointed out that Ollsons right hand was clearly pulling back Sams left shoulder. To be fair Sam never appealled.

[Hipper]

Sean Custis suggesting referees are not helped by players when getting decisions wrong.
Saying Sam could have told the referee he was the player who handled the ball.
What an idiot.
Did Arsenal's centre half tell the referee he doubled handed the winning goal at Turf Moor.?

All right, I'll ask the question. I think I know the answer but let's hear your views:

Why did Sam not tell the referee he handled it?

(Your answer is not satisfactory of course - two wrongs etc..)

[KefkaClaret]

I can't believe some have the gall to complain against the ref yesterday when he tried his best to get us the points. First with Vokes and Gray was offside as well

[claretspice]

Looks level to me there if i'm honest.

[TVC15]

What about the Arsenal one at the Turf though?

Apparently a player is allowed to block a ball if it's going to hit him in the face. Situations like that will still cause plenty of debate.

They would have ruled it out for offside anyway !

[KefkaClaret]

Looks level to me there if i'm honest.

The rule is the furthest body part and if Grey's left leg looks level then you may need glasses

[boatshed bill]

What defines offside these days? Foot position or any part of the body? I really don't know the rules of the game any more, seriously couldn't believe that a player is allowed to use his hand to protect his face!!! They'll be making them wear shinpads next

[Burnley Ace]

I can't believe some have the gall to complain against the ref yesterday when he tried his best to get us the points. First with Vokes and Gray was offside as well

goals on Sunday showed "the line" and the only people who could argue he was offside are myopic Swansea fans.

[Burnley Ace]

Vokes could have been booked if he had disputed the decision. The referees word is final!

[Guich]

The Swansea player's arm is level with or behind Andre's boot. It just isn't bright yellow...easy mistake to make

[clarethomer]

ZhjH7NJ.png (990.81 KiB) Viewed 4326 times

i've drawn a straight line with 18yd box and shows andre onside

[MT03ALG]

Law 11: Offside: The hands and arms of all players are not considered when judging if a player is in an offside position.....

[Rowls]

This is one example where viewing things over and over via TV is actually changing the way the rules are interpreted.

Being "level" means exactly that - being level.

There is no "being level once a computer-generated line is drawn across an HD TV screen". There is no "level up to an accuracy of 5 mega-pixels".

There is only being level. According to the eyesight of the linesman.

The players are evidently level in the pictures above.

[taio]

If that's a straight line I must be still p****d from last night.

Gray is offside but it would be harsh to suggest that the linesman should always get the sort of decision right with it being so tight.

[mrhungryone]

ZhjH7NJ.png

i've drawn a straight line with 18yd box and shows andre onside

Hahaha....

[taio]

This is one example where viewing things over and over via TV is actually changing the way the rules are interpreted.

Being "level" means exactly that - being level.

There is no "being level once a computer-generated line is drawn across an HD TV screen". There is no "level up to an accuracy of 5 mega-pixels".

There is only being level. According to the eyesight of the linesman.

The players are evidently level in the pictures above.

Technically Gray is offside from the picture but there's no way you can expect the linesman to call it.

[Rowls]

I don't believe he is, taio. Not "technically" or otherwise.

As has been said - I'm not sure we should be trying to decipher offside by pixels on gigantic screens.

The players are level. They are clearly level. The linesman has called it and he called it correctly.

[minnieclaret]

What defines offside these days? Foot position or any part of the body? I really don't know the rules of the game any more, seriously couldn't believe that a player is allowed to use his hand to protect his face!!! They'll be making them wear shinpads next

You can be offside with any part of your body that can score.
By that ruling you can't be offside if your arm is pointing where you want the ball played, unless you are Arsenal.
By the same law Andre's left foot was offside.

[Rileybobs]

Gray's foot is probably 12 inches offside in that still, however is that the exact moment that Vokes makes contact with the ball? The assistant referee cannot make calls to such a degree of accuracy. The benefit of the doubt is with the attacker so that's about as level as you're going to see.

[taio]

I don't believe he is, taio. Not "technically" or otherwise.

As has been said - I'm not sure we should be trying to decipher offside by pixels on gigantic screens.

The players are level. They are clearly level. The linesman has called it and he called it correctly.

Based on the picture we are referring to, as pointed out in the last post, his foot is about a foot offside. As I already said, the linesman cannot be expected to decipher it, which is why used the word technically.

[k90bfc]

Taylor was always,one way or another,going to even out his earlier error,you just knew,that it would happen,but once again it was BURNLEY who lost with no points earned,AGAIN!

[ablueclaret]

Very few refs do it by the book, how often is a player done for nudges, shirt pulling, obstruction. It's 80% subjective nowadays and the players don't help, most cheat to some degree. Mind you how many rugby tries involve a forward pass, dozens.

[Hipper]

Do we know the penalty was definitely given for handball?

Why did Vokes handle it? Was he interfered with in some way?

[Rowls]

Based on the picture we are referring to, as pointed out in the last post, his foot is about a foot offside. As I already said, the linesman cannot be expected to decipher it, which is why used the word technically.

You'll have to look that up in the rules but I don't recall anything in there about being offside by "a foot", however you mean it.

He's onside by virtue of being level with the defender.

Unless the rules have changed and we are calling offside by pixel or whatever.

Edit - Just checked the wording of the law. Well those people at FIFA have done it again! Offside IS now adjudicated by body parts. Apologies taio. You're completely right.

[dsr]

In the Olympic Games, they have a slow-motion camera to determine which runner is a quarter of an inch in front when they cross the line. That's based on chest, not legs, of course.

A football linesman is looking at feet as well as chest. Now, technically, when two men are running along side by side and (to the naked eye) level, the lineman ought to be watching their feet. Because approximately six times a second, the lead will change - one man's left foot will be in front, then the other man's right, then the first man's right, then the second man's left, and so on. And obviously six times a second they will be dead level for a thousandth of a second or so.

While the linesman is doing this, he is also looking at or listening to the ball being kicked. Except that if he goes by the sound, it will take about 0.03 seconds to travel 10 yards, so he can't do that - the lead may have changed. So he has to look at the ball as it's kicked, while at the same time looking at the two men who may appear to be level but aren't.

The problem with video technology is that unless all cameras are HD, we're still stuck at 24-30 frames per second. (60 in HD. ) That isn't enough for the levels of accuracy people are wanting - Usain Bolt travels 18 inches or so in one-twenty-fourth of a second, so it's a fair bet that Gray's foot can go at more than half that speed. So if his foot is six inches offside, a single TV picture can't capture it with certainty - it's not accurate enough.

So maybe we go back to how it was when FIFA introduced the rule about level being onside. They said that the rule was to be applied using normal human eyesight, and if the man appeared to be level under normal human eyesight, then he was level. Gray was level.