A Second Sweaty Referendum

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:58 am

The Irish issue is going to be even more incendiary, it will be one heck of an achievement for the Conservative and Unionist Party to be the Party that oversaw the splitting up of Britain and the loss of Scotland and Northern Ireland, but that for them is no consequence as they will have control of a one party state in England.
Very sad days ahead.

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:01 am

IanMcL wrote:There was no option for the First Minister. SNP manifesto guaranteed a referendum, should there be a material change. Exit from the EU when the entire nation voted to stay in Europe, is that change. The vote must take place while the UK is still in, so that a clear path for Scotland to remain is established with Europe. EU may use Scotland and promise a good outcome, to upset English negotiators.

Scotland, Ireland and Wales have been left out by England. What other options do they have than to kick back? It could be the best outcome for all the Home Countries. A foot in each camp.

The entire nation didn't vote to stay in Europe. Why would you want to vote prior to knowing the terms of a negotiated Brexit? Scotland aren't in the EU and can't therefore 'remain'. The EU would have to break it's own rules to allow Scotland to join as fiscally it cannot satisfy the criteria. Scotland is disproportionately overrepresented in Parliament and equally disproportionately funded as a result of the Barnet formula. Other than that a sound argument.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:05 am

Because Scotland wishes to remain part of a political and cultural as well economic union.It is quite understandable to think that The Scottish people feel they share more with some of their European counterparts than they do with an English culture centred on the I'm all right Jack philosophy.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:09 am

The position of Scotland in Europe is one that could be dealt with, there is more flexibility than one imagines, in fact the British have benefitted from a lot of it and if they had been more positive about the institution could have been significant changers of it for the good.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:11 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:No.

Would you prefer she broke a manifesto promise, because that's what she'd be doing by not calling a second referendum? The Scottish electorate put her in power base on a manifesto that included the promise to hold a 2nd referendum if there was a "material change" in circumstances, and as an example the manifesto specifically said that the UK voting to leave the EU against Scotland's will would be an example of a material change.

So before you continue to mock her consider whether or not you want politicians to keep to their manifesto promises. By all means continue to mock this 2nd IndyRef, but at least then both know how tenuous your principles are when it comes to political promises.

Quick question IT

Last time you were "Yes" if I remember rightly, would that still be the case today?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:11 am

ablueclaret wrote:The position of Scotland in Europe is one that could be dealt with, there is more flexibility than one imagines, in fact the British have benefitted from a lot of it and if they had been more positive about the institution could have been significant changers of it for the good.

If they fast track Scotland in then it sets a precedent and is there anything advantage to Europe to fast tracking Scotland in?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:17 am

I'm asssuming that the SNP argument will be that as they are already in the EU under the flag of the UK, then there is no need for them to be fast tracked in as they never left.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:25 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm asssuming that the SNP argument will be that as they are already in the EU under the flag of the UK, then there is no need for them to be fast tracked in as they never left.

They'll be in for a shock then

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:29 am

There has been little advantage to Europe from an economic perspective from many of the nations that have joined but the EU is about more than economic advantage it is about preserving the peace, enabling countries to develop, developing policies which benefit all, it is an alien concept to the English who see themselves as intrinsically superior who will do fine relying on their own resources whilst bringing in loads of foreigners on inferior terms to do the work the great English people don't want to do themselves.
Sadly we are a nation still living on our past deceit, still thinking we saved the World from Hitler. We've been shown on the football pitch just how deluded we are but politically we still haven't grown up.

CaptJohn · Post by **CaptJohn** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:30 am

The Poison Smurf of Scotland. Opportunist bitch IMHO.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:32 am

We might just see the rise of Celtica a fusion of Scotland Ireland and Wales with England being that poor little hinterland. Water might become a very significant factor over the next few years.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:33 am

You'd rather she just fell into line. You want independence, why wouldn't the Scots want to rid themselves of the yoke of English superiority.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:34 am

Celtica??

That would defeat the object of independence just a little.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:37 am

ablueclaret wrote:You'd rather she just fell into line. You want independence, why wouldn't the Scots want to rid themselves of the yoke of English superiority.

I'm all for it, let them go if that's what they vote for.

If they don't, I'm sure they'll hold another one in a few years (repeat until the SNP get what they want).

However they'd need to take a proportion of the debt, create their own currency and generally look after themselves.
They can't have their cake and eat it.

Proudjohn · Post by **Proudjohn** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:38 am

I want every television fitted with a quick response turnover switch to remove Sturgeon from my living room tv.
Imagine I come home from 4 hours of a speed awareness course plus being stuck in traffic .I then put my television
on and Nicole bloody Sturgeon is in my face.Not good I have to say.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:46 am

: IMG_1774.JPG (76.71 KiB) Viewed 2997 times

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:06 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:Quick question IT

Last time you were "Yes" if I remember rightly, would that still be the case today?

A tentative No last time, because of EU membership. But now it's an easy Yes.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:08 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:A tentative No last time, because of EU membership. But now it's an easy Yes.

If Sturgeon manages to convince enough and the vote is Yes, and the jocks gain independence and stay as an EU member, would you live in England or Scotland ?

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:15 am

A second Referendum yes. A chance not to be governed by a "Con"servative, Tory Blue Labour or Dim Lib government I would find and opportunity not to be missed.

Vote out without hesitation in my opinion.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:31 am

claretdom wrote:If Sturgeon manages to convince enough and the vote is Yes, and the jocks gain independence and stay as an EU member, would you live in England or Scotland ?

Most likely England.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:36 am

Think it all depends whether you think Brexit will be a success that benefits the whole of the UK.

One thing that I have to agree with Sturgeon on is that it would give them the freedom to do what they want*

*of course, the economic impact would severly hit Scotland, unless it can stay in the EU**

**if that happens, expect them to do much better than us short to medium term at least

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:11 am

This is all a very good way for the SNP to deflect from their disasterous term as the executive. Everything they have touched has failed.

All they stand for is breaking up the UK regardless of consequence.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:18 am

Isn't the SNP similar to UKIP - a single issue party? What would the SNP do if they achieve an independent Scotland?

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:21 am

Paul Waine wrote:Isn't the SNP similar to UKIP - a single issue party? What would the SNP do if they achieve an independent Scotland?

Think the main difference is that anybody English would be classed as a racist, thick, right wing, nazi etc where as someone from Scotland would be classed as proud.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:25 am

Think the SNP are left of Labour, but I don't really know to be honest.

I know their economic policies make Brexiteers ones sound sane though

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:26 am

ablueclaret wrote:There has been little advantage to Europe from an economic perspective from many of the nations that have joined but the EU is about more than economic advantage it is about preserving the peace, enabling countries to develop, developing policies which benefit all, it is an alien concept to the English who see themselves as intrinsically superior who will do fine relying on their own resources whilst bringing in loads of foreigners on inferior terms to do the work the great English people don't want to do themselves.
Sadly we are a nation still living on our past deceit, still thinking we saved the World from Hitler. We've been shown on the football pitch just how deluded we are but politically we still haven't grown up.

Hi ablue, a surprising statement. Would the French recognise your description of the purpose of the EU? Or the Germans, Spanish, Italians, and the rest?

Yes, the central European countries have joined EU to free themselves from the Soviet Bloc.

How does the unemployment in all the southern EU countries as a result of the euro help in "preserving the peace?"

What are your thoughts on Ukraine?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:39 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Think the SNP are left of Labour, but I don't really know to be honest.

I know their economic policies make Brexiteers ones sound sane though

Hi Lancs,

I guess you mean left of where Labour were - though also hard to know where Jeremy Corbyn's Labour are.

Isn't Brexit a political policy - what group do we belong to etc?

I might be "off message" with this thought: what's to stop the UK and other free market countries campaigning for better WTO rules for everyone? It might aid the development not just of the nations of Europe but the nations of all the world.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:44 am

My wife is Scottish ..I'm English....could this be the end.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:45 am

claretdom wrote:If Sturgeon manages to convince enough and the vote is Yes, and the jocks gain independence and stay as an EU member, would you live in England or Scotland ?

Scotland.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:45 am

That sounds like a world wide trade deal Paul.

Good luck with that one in the current climate!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:57 am

Right_winger wrote:This is all a very good way for the SNP to deflect from their disasterous term as the executive. Everything they have touched has failed.

All they stand for is breaking up the UK regardless of consequence.

What is it about their performance that makes you think they've been a disaster?

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:04 pm

Hasn't the education system recorded its worst ever performance while under SNP. That was what was claimed on QT and the daft Tasmina (former conversative but now SNP mouthpiece) didn't dispute it while sat on the same panel ?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:17 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:That sounds like a world wide trade deal Paul.

Good luck with that one in the current climate!

Yes, I know - but I've always been an optimist.

EU has always maintained the Common Agricultural Policy - basically a scam that enriches the French farms at the expense of the impoverished farmers in the lesser developed nations.

The single market was introduced to the EU by the UK under Margaret Thatcher. It has developed slowly and unevenly because some of the member states have "dragged their feet" and resisted these changes. The single market isn't perfect or complete today because of this blocking.

If people believe that the single market is important to the economic prosperity of the electorate, how much more can we achieve by focusing on WTO terms.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What is it about their performance that makes you think they've been a disaster?

The education levels have dropped at an alarming rate,
The NHS in Scotland is on the brink of collapse ( same could be said for U.K.)
Unemployed figures are rising,
The merger of the police service isn't working, their performance has reduced drastically not to mention that hey have frittered away millions on a failed IT project.
The same could be said for the fire service being centralised, it's just not working.
the public transport has gone backwards,
The economy is growing slower than rUK.
They are hell bent on pushing through their ridiculous named person scheme, which has already been branded illegal by EU courts.

That's just off the top of my head.

All they are after is a complete power grab, centralising everything then when things don't work deflect it onto Westminster.

SNP have done a sterling job of demonising Labour,but Labour could wrestle control back in Scotland if they got their act together.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:36 pm

Their argument is that they could proiritise more if they had total control (true to some extent, but the suspicion is that they are not willing to risk being voting out by using the very real powers they have had since devolution)

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:53 pm

Right_winger wrote:The education levels have dropped at an alarming rate,

No they haven't. They've had their worst PISA performance ever but that's an assessment that has only been carried out 6 times, all since 2000 and is hardly cast-iron proof that education is dropping, and it certainly doesn't assign blame.

The NHS in Scotland is on the brink of collapse ( same could be said for U.K.)

Because of the Tories.

Unemployed figures are rising,

Only if you specifically look at the most recent reports. Unemployment fell last year.

The merger of the police service isn't working, their performance has reduced drastically not to mention that hey have frittered away millions on a failed IT project.

A failed IT project = SNP are a disaster for Scotland?
As for the merger, perhaps if the government stopped this ******* austerity bullshit that we don't need Scotland wouldn't be forced to try these kinds of things to save money.

The same could be said for the fire service being centralised, it's just not working.

As above, fund them properly.

the public transport has gone backwards,

Where hasn't it gone backwards? Just one example is the closure of bus routes here because the council can't afford to subsidise loss-making services. Again, that's austerity for you.

The economy is growing slower than rUK.

A growing economy isn't a "disaster".

They are hell bent on pushing through their ridiculous named person scheme, which has already been branded illegal by EU courts.

Kinda funny that it's the ECHR that has slowed this down, but still, how does this constitute a "disaster"?

That's just off the top of my head.

All they are after is a complete power grab, centralising everything then when things don't work deflect it onto Westminster.

Of course they're centralising, they're trying to save money because of this Tory governments obsession with making sure rich people don't have to pay for the mess they've caused.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:00 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:A tentative No last time, because of EU membership. But now it's an easy Yes.

But what makes you think EU membership is guaranteed as an independent nation? As I see it, the chances are far from certain, and certainly not on the same (very good) terms Scotland had before. Literally everything has changed now, for both the UK, Scotland and the EU.

clansman · Post by **clansman** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:06 pm

No way Spain will allow Scotland to join as an independent nation. Its a non starter .If they do then Catalonia and the Basque region will be next!
As for Ablue's views on the Celtic nation,Yorkshire and Lancashire together have a bigger economy than Scotland wales and northern Ireland combined!
Scotland is part of the UK and will remain in it!!

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:08 pm

Turtles answers are brilliant, the SNP would be proud.

Basically everything is someone elses fault

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:43 pm

It's hard to imagine that any Scot reading this thread would consider themselves to be part of a union with England. There are no comments on here that suggest the UK would be losing a valued partner or any attempt to persuade those tempted by independence to stay. Instead there is the usual barrage of abuse and an assumption that we're doing the Scots a massive favour by letting them hang around and if they don't like it they should clear off. The UK should be a Union, but for many English the prevailing attitude is that Scotland Wales and NI should be subservient. It's hardly surprising that there is resentment in return, even moreso given that the Scots are frequently governed by a party that none of them ever vote for and which therefore has absolutely no political 'capital' invested there.

The economics probably don't add up, but if I was Scottish I'd still be tempted to vote for independence. The English control over Scotland is infinitely greater than any perceived European control over the UK ever was.

timshorts · Post by **timshorts** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:47 pm

I don't think that there is a lot of economic risk for Scotland if they chose to leave the UK and were able to remain or re-join the EU.

As things presently stand, the little Englanders for some reason still believe that because England is so wonderful, that we won't be worse off after companies that need to be based within the EU move and take their jobs with them.

The major benefactor of this would appear to be Eire as the only major English speaking country left in the EU. If Scotland went ahead with the SNP plan, some of the major companies that are now planning to leave if we exit the single market would only need to relocate to Dumfries, or something and that's the problem (almost) solved. And please don't pretend that this isn't going to happen. My firm works with (in part) with the relocation of workers to Europe (at least, the selling of their houses part) and this looks as if it is already escalating from an early trickle without article 50 having been triggered.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:50 pm

The economics probably don't add up

They don't, not even remotely, they do 42% of their trade with England.

But I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. Proper Little Englanders all over this thread.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:They don't, not even remotely, they do 42% of their trade with England.

But I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. Proper Little Englanders all over this thread.

Be honest now, and this isn't a taunt or me being petty because I do like you Lancs.

Do you dislike your own people? I always get the feeling that liberals have something of a disdain; or at the very least slight resentment of their own that simply isn't there for others; even if the exact situation can be applied elsewhere.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:57 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote: Proper Little Englanders all over this thread.

If we had a higher number of Scottish people on here we'd get a more balanced view, I know of a number of them who don't want to be in the UK and would happily leave.

We are allowed to mention that aren't we?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:59 pm

Bacchus wrote: The UK should be a Union, but for many English the prevailing attitude is that Scotland Wales and NI should be subservient. It's hardly surprising that there is resentment in return, even moreso given that the Scots are frequently governed by a party that none of them ever vote for and which therefore has absolutely no political 'capital' invested there.

So what would be the answer?

They can't really have 2 elections, one for Scottish rule/parliment and one for UK Government rule.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:09 pm

Why would I dislike my own people CM?

I'm as proud to be British as anyone, and I'm absolutely gutted that the Union that has stood for 400 years is coming to an end.

And that is because equally proud Brits like me are outnumbered by the Brits who can't accept the changes in our country and our place in the world.

We are still Great Britain, but "Great" to me always meant that we were one of the most tolerant and secure societys. Two referendums later, and we clearly are not, with lots of people suddenly realising (on BOTH sides) that they actually don't like each other very much. To too many others, "Great" appears to mean that we don't have to listen to anything or anybody else and we can do just what the hell we want.

Depressing doesn't even begin to cover it.

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:10 pm

It makes me laugh when I see Brexit fanatics deriding the Scottish Nationalists for wanting independence. Both desire a perceived greater right to self determination, both argue that they're being dictated to by a parliament from a different country and both are willing to ignore warnings of impending economic catastrophe to try and get what they want. They should all meet up and go for a beer because there's a lot of common ground between them. For what it's worth I personally would like the Union to remain, but I'm so dispirited with the state of the UK at the moment I really wouldn't blame them if they voted out.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:12 pm

There's no sudden realisation, there's always been a reasonable number of people who don't like their neighbouring countries in the UK.
I know this from growing up in N.Wales in the 80's and 90's.

It just so happens that now something can be done about it democratically (if the result suits the party in control that is).

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:20 pm

And you are right in one way CM, I'm different from most liberals because of the pride I have in my country, but that pride isn't the jingoistic ******** spouted by UKIp and the Cons.

Its a quiet pride in knowing that when the **** hit the fan, we stood up for what we believed in and did the right thing.

Now? Jesus, we argue about the rights of EU nationals that have been living here for forty years and think about using them as a negotiating pawn, we moan because we give a tiny percentage of our wealth to third and second world countries to help out, and we vote in droves for people who tell us that immigrants are the root of all our problems.

We've lost a lot recently, and we are going to lose a hell of a lot more of what makes us "British"

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:40 pm

I take your points about Little Englander.
In fact I have Scottish ancestry and was very worried about the first referendum.
I want us to be British and I value the Scots.
However, I am now fed up with their constant moaning and this has just tipped my thinking over the edge.
Just when the UK needs to be united and concentrating on the most significant negotiations we have had for decades,
this happens. We have six million Britons quivering at the thought of having to stand alone in the world and not seize the exciting opportunities that lie ahead.
This isn't the Scotland I imagined, brave, proud and independent, this is a Scotland that is frightened to stand up for themselves and show the world it is a great nation. Instead it wants to pay zillions into the EU pot, accept its corruption, be governed by its laws and accept uncontrolled immigration just as long as it can have free trade. Is that the independence they want?
I still don't see how this works mind. We are in the EU as the UK, so I think we will have to leave as the UK.
I wouldn't have thought certain little bits of it won't be able to remain.
Anyhow off you trot little Scotland, jump up and down to France and Germany's tune, accept the EU's accounts haven't been audited for 19 years and have a good time.
rUK we are proud people, we have the stomach for the fight for real independence, clearly I have underestimated the Scots or have I?
Don't expect to major news down here for the next two years mind, we have real negotiations to deal with.
p.s. Oh! when you replace Westminster with Brussels could we just have our nuclear missiles back please?