Undemocratic

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:41 pm

Nicola Sturgeon has described the decision to not allow a second referendum as "Undemocratic".

Is it, or is undemocratic, like iconic, losing its meaning through over and misuse? In this case to describe a decision you disagree with.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:43 pm

Democracy has already spoken in that particular, once in a generation decision.

mikeS · Post by **mikeS** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:49 pm

You could argue that it's undemcratic that Donald Trump became President having gained several million fewer votes than Hilary Clinton. Or that It's undemocratic that an unelected Prime Minister is taking us out of Europe.
Does Sturgeon have a mandate, whose party doesn't have a majority in The Scottish Parliament, now wants a second referendum having lost the vote 55-45 in 2014.
It's the land of politics where democracy takes many forms.

minnieclaret · Post by **minnieclaret** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:51 pm

I find it strange how so many of the mob who wanted Britain out of Europe are crying foul over Scotland wanting the chance to leave Britain.
They probably still live in the fantasy that Britain is great.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:51 pm

As in Sturgeon was elected democratically to lead her country complete with a mandate whereas the Blessed Theresa wasn't and appears to be making it up as she blunders along ?

You beat me to it, smithy...

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:59 pm

The krankie women dos NOT have a mandate for anything. She governs in coalition. People forget this. She is a major theat to the security of the UK as a Putin supporter. The scots know evrything about money and will never vote for the failed euro.

Long live Fastlene.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:00 pm

She's asked the boss for permission and the boss has said not until after Brexit is sorted.

Hardly undemocratic, just Sturgeon gobbing off like a told off teenager.

Her hands are tied and there isn't much she can do about it short of staging a full blown revolution and throwing off the English shackles, which she isn't going to do, let's be honest.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:03 pm

I hope she has a vote that is not binding and loses and then sods off to to Moscow. Unilateral disarmament. No chance. Take Corbyn with you, you mad cow.

Man of Kent · Post by **Man of Kent** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:22 pm

minnieclaret wrote:I find it strange how so many of the mob who wanted Britain out of Europe are crying foul over Scotland wanting the chance to leave Britain.
They probably still live in the fantasy that Britain is great.

Very few people are crying foul at all. I am actually begging for another vote on Scottish independence - just as long as the whole country has a chance to vote this time. If Wee Jimmy had any sense, she'd also be calling for a UK-wide vote. If that happened, the Jocks would be on their way by a massive majority in a flash.

gtclaret · Post by **gtclaret** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:33 pm

minnieclaret wrote:I find it strange how so many of the mob who wanted Britain out of Europe are crying foul over Scotland wanting the chance to leave Britain.
They probably still live in the fantasy that Britain is great.

The Scottish have had a vote on independent and decidedo to stay in the UK.They knew of the EU vote at the time.Therefore they are bound by the vote of the UK.
There is no issue over democracy.People have voted.T May is correct to refuse a second referendum

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:49 pm

Man of Kent wrote:Very few people are crying foul at all. I am actually begging for another vote on Scottish independence - just as long as the whole country has a chance to vote this time.

So I presume you wanted the whole of the EU to have the chance to vote in the referendum last year?

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:13 pm

Winston Churchill in 1940, Anthony Eden 1955, Harold MacMillan 1957, Alec Douglas Home 1963, Jim Callaghan 1976, John Major 1990 and Gordon Brown 2007 are all PM's who did not become PM by initially winning a general election. although Eden was only PM for a few weeks before the 1955 election.
It is the norm for a PM who comes into office by the resignation of a sitting PM not to go to the Country. MacMillan was elected in 1959, Home rejected in 1964 Callaghan rejected in 1979, Major elected 1992, Brown rejected 2010

Loyalclaret · Post by **Loyalclaret** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:21 pm

May "It would be unfair to Scotland, the people of Scotland at the moment that they would be being asked to make a crucial decision without the information they need to make that decison"

That made me laugh

gogogadgetlegs · Post by **gogogadgetlegs** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:59 pm

mikeS wrote:Or that It's undemocratic that an unelected Prime Minister is taking us out of Europe.

It's the party that elect the leader(vis-a-vis Prime Minister), not the general public voters. Its very simple. And by the way it was the electorate that voted us out of Europe, myself being one of them.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:18 am

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/779774 ... ill-people" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even those who would vote to leave the UK do not want a 2nd referendum.

A recent poll showed 65 % of Scots do NOT want another divisive referendum.

If there is to be one though. Let England vote as well. They'll be gone in a breath. For Scotland, no more free prescriptions. No more care for the elderly which runs into 1000s of pounds. No more free parking at hospitals. And no more free tuition fees. All funded by the English.

KeighleyClaret · Post by **KeighleyClaret** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:45 am

summitclaret wrote:The krankie women dos NOT have a mandate for anything. She governs in coalition. People forget this. She is a major theat to the security of the UK as a Putin supporter. The scots know evrything about money and will never vote for the failed euro.

Long live Fastlene.

So many things wrong in so few lines.
1) SNP won 46% of the votes in Scotland and have a majority in a parliemant deliberately designed to prevent them having one, thanks to a couple of Greens who are also pro-independence. The English parties can only dream of achieving such supremacy.
2) The SNP does NOT support Putin. Thats Trump.
3) The mandate for a new vote was specifically stated in the 2015 Manifesto in precise terms. These have come to pass and were made clear in the campaign. Thats a mandate.
4) The start position for Yes in the last Referendum was 30%. The current start position is nearer 50%. Of course the Scots will vote for it, thats precisely why May has tried to stop it.
5) Like many EU countries Scotland will get an opt out from the Euro.
6) Fastlene? Or do you mean Faslane?? Its OK being pro Trident replacement as long as you realise its at the expense of Hospitals, Roads, Tax cuts etc. You can only spend the money once.

Other than that, a great and incisive post!!

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:56 am

Jose Mourinho told her to say it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:02 am

PaintYorkClaretnBlue wrote:Democracy has already spoken in that particular, once in a generation decision.

the more i hear this complaint the more i feel that the people making are thick as ****.

If you seriously don't know by now that by calling for a referendum she's obeying a campaign promise then you genuinely have to be so stupid and so unwilling to learn that you're not even curious enough to do the slightest amount of research into the reason for her calling this referendum.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:05 am

summitclaret wrote:The krankie women dos NOT have a mandate for anything.

...

She was elected FM on the manifesto promise to hold an independence referendum if the UK voted to leave the EU against Scotlands will. The UK then voted to leave the EU against Scotlands will.

Explain to me how this isn't a mandate for a referendum.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:36 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:She was elected FM on the manifesto promise to hold an independence referendum if the UK voted to leave the EU against Scotlands will. The UK then voted to leave the EU against Scotlands will.

Explain to me how this isn't a mandate for a referendum.

Explain to me when Scotland had a vote on leaving the EU?

As far as I'm aware only the UK has had a vote.

People seem to forget that Holyrood is nothing more than a large council. Any international matters are westminsters remit not Holyroods.

Let's also not forget that the SNP have stated theay they will not call for a referendum unless there is a clear will from the Scottish people to do so.

Depends what way you look at it.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:37 am

It's amusing to see people who hate Farage, Defend the female, Scottish version to the hilt when she goes on her nationalist rants.
Personally I have no problem with Scotland having another vote. The government must make it clear to them though that the result really, really must stand this time.
They can't have a new referendum every 12 months until they get the result some of them want.
It would be a shame for the UK to lose one of its members but they will fare far worse than the rest of us in the long run

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:23 am

Sorry Damo, but if you think she's the female, Scottish version of Farage then you're not paying attention, or are simply unaware of the differences between their brands of nationalism.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:25 am

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indepe ... html%3Famp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:27 am

Right_winger wrote:https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indepe ... html%3Famp

You people seem to be going out of your way to not acknowledge her manifesto promise. It's hilarious to watch you contort yourselves into an opinion that puts you on the side of a politician breaking a manifesto promise.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:56 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:You people seem to be going out of your way to not acknowledge her manifesto promise. It's hilarious to watch you contort yourselves into an opinion that puts you on the side of a politician breaking a manifesto promise.

No I'm just backing up my views with evidence

That not how it works?

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:57 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Sorry Damo, but if you think she's the female, Scottish version of Farage then you're not paying attention, or are simply unaware of the differences between their brands of nationalism.

OK, I'll concede Farage was more dislikeable(being English probably has something to do with that) but they have an awful lot in common and ultimately have the same political agenda. Independance from foreign government.
Also, it's fascinating how the left and right have completely switched sides on this one.
The ignorant bigots on the right, up in arms that Scotland should seek independance.
And the people on the left, who accuse everyone who disagrees with them of being an ignorant bigot, demanding Scotland get their own Brexit.
I'm starting to think that the British people just really enjoy a good argument

taio · Post by **taio** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:58 am

It's simple in my mind at least...a second referendum on Scottish independence really ought to take place in the interests of democracy assuming the SNP still have a clear mandate prior to one taking place.

What is far from straightforward is the timing of when that should be - that's the key issue for me - and I just can't see how it could possibly be within the next 18-24 months, and I think deep down the SNP know that.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:05 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Sorry Damo, but if you think she's the female, Scottish version of Farage then you're not paying attention, or are simply unaware of the differences between their brands of nationalism.

Nationalism is Nationalism, however one may try and dress it up. The Scottish brand of nationalism is no different to UKIP, just a damn sight better organised.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:33 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:If there is to be one though. Let England vote as well. They'll be gone in a breath.

Ill ask you the same thing as I asked Man of Kent.

Did you want the rest of the EU to be able to vote in our referendum last year?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:38 am

That's a fair question and the obvious answer would be no, so there's no reason for the English to have a vote on Scotland being in the UK.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:38 am

HatfieldClaret wrote:Nationalism is Nationalism, however one may try and dress it up. The Scottish brand of nationalism is no different to UKIP, just a damn sight better organised.

That is ridiculous, HatfieldClaret.

The differences between the SNP and UKIP both socially and economically are stark. There is simply no comparison.

They only have one thing in common, and that's wanting to leave a Union that they don't think works well for them.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:39 am

HatfieldClaret wrote:Nationalism is Nationalism, however one may try and dress it up. The Scottish brand of nationalism is no different to UKIP, just a damn sight better organised.

Then you're being deliberately ignorant to the fundamental differences between the SNP's civic nationalism and UKIP's British Nationalism. Civic nationalism is almost the polar opposite of UKIP's flavour of nationalism. They both might have pride in their nationality but (and this is a simplification, obviously) UKIP's is basically "we're British and awesome. You're not. Get out and stay out" while the SNP's is "We're Scottish and awesome. You're not. Come and be Scottish with us."

To say that they're both the same just because they're both nationalists is like saying the Nazis and Bernie Sanders are the same because they're both socialists (because all types of socialism are the same, right?). It's ridiculous and suggests that you don't know even the most basic of differences between the two.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:02 am

Right_winger wrote:No I'm just backing up my views with evidence

That not how it works?

There's better evidence the proves she does a mandate for the referendum - the SNP's manifesto.

What you have is something Sturgeon said in a speech where she says that in the next five years there's be no referendum unless there's "strong evidence" that the majority of Scots support it. If there wasn't a better piece of evidence of her mandate to call a referendum then you'd have a worthwhile point. Sort of (because "strong evidence" is pretty vague). But your problem is that there is better evidence. The SNP's election manifesto of 2016 literally says that the SNP will seek a second referendum if the UK tries to take Scotland out of the EU against the will of the Scottish people. And that is happening.

Her party was literally elected to office on the promise that if events went the way they are going she'd call for a second referendum. If she doesn't seek a second referendum then she's breaking a manifesto promise to those who voted for her party. And that is a much stronger piece of evidence showing that she does have a mandate than yours that you think shows she doesn't.

A manifesto promise is much stronger than something someone says in a speech, so when you repeatedly avoid using the manifesto which proves her mandate you undermine your own credibility because it shows me that you're basically looking at only the evidence you like, and ignoring the evidence that doesn't support your opinion.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:06 am

Now we've established she does have a mandate, it's just the date of when it's happening to agree on.

Doing it before Brexit would be fairly stupid though.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:15 am

Let the poisonous little gobshite have her vote. Make it clear from the start though that if you vote yes and find you struggle in the EU tough ****, if you vote yes and the EU rejects your application there is no coming back to us. You sort out your own currency from day 1, you no longer have any share to the proceeds from the national lottery and you contribute towards the national debt you are leaving behind on leaving the UK.

If on the other hand you lose, then you shut your mouth permanently and don't bore anyone again who is tired of hearing you or fellow SNP winbags begging tone.

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:23 am

In the event that a second referendum takes place I am pretty sure that the Scots will vote for continued dependence on the UK. They currently spend £127 per capita for every £100 raised in taxes and most would find that particular gravy train hard to give up.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:26 am

Sidney1st wrote:Now we've established she does have a mandate, it's just the date of when it's happening to agree on.

Doing it before Brexit would be fairly stupid though.

I think doing it after Brexit would be fairly stupid. Scotland has a better chance of staying in the EU, or at least striking a Norway-style deal, if they gain independence, or at least vote for it, before the UK has left the EU.

Not only that, but it might take decades for the UK to leave the EU. There's nothing to keep the EU from deciding to keep giving the UK an extra two years to negotiate Brexit. It's pretty unreasonable to expect the SNP to wait until the UK has got its **** together.

It's also possible that if they wait til after Brexit the UK could, as part of their negotiations, ask that the EU promise to reject applications from any UK countries that break away from the UK for a certain period of time, which i think would be a pretty shitty thing to do but certainly something this government would consider.
By calling for the referendum before Brexit is completed it stops the UK messing with any future Scottish EU application in that way, because then if the UK government tries to screw Scotland over like that, and it became public knowledge, it would all but guarentee a win for the Yes campaign.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:31 am

This, and the other thread on this should really be merged

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:46 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think doing it after Brexit would be fairly stupid. Scotland has a better chance of staying in the EU, or at least striking a Norway-style deal, if they gain independence, or at least vote for it, before the UK has left the EU.

Not only that, but it might take decades for the UK to leave the EU. There's nothing to keep the EU from deciding to keep giving the UK an extra two years to negotiate Brexit. It's pretty unreasonable to expect the SNP to wait until the UK has got its **** together.

It's also possible that if they wait til after Brexit the UK could, as part of their negotiations, ask that the EU promise to reject applications from any UK countries that break away from the UK for a certain period of time, which i think would be a pretty shitty thing to do but certainly something this government would consider.
By calling for the referendum before Brexit is completed it stops the UK messing with any future Scottish EU application in that way, because then if the UK government tries to screw Scotland over like that, and it became public knowledge, it would all but guarentee a win for the Yes campaign.

Scotland has to join the queue to apply for EU membership, Spain has already mentioned that.
You'd be a newly independant country, there's no reason for the EU to keep you in or fast track you.
10 year wait isn't it to get in?

Decades - Doubt it, but once the deal has been negotiated and agreed on it's not an issue how long the separation takes.
I do think it could take slightly longer then the 2 years, but this also gives the Scots time to get their act together and start putting plans into place for when/if independance happens.
Have the SNP told the Scottish people how they'd do things, finances, NHS, Defence etc?
I'm assuming they've got something that the people can read prior to another referendum?

The SNP want out now, but maybe, just maybe, it's worth waiting until Brexit has been agreed upon to see what sort of deal is done and then the Scots can decide which will be more beneficial.

I doubt the UK would be that petty and stop an independant country joining the EU, that's just your paranoia showing through.
You clearly think the UK government would try to stop Scotland joining, but that would be political suicide, so they wouldn't do it.
It would almost certainly become public knowledge, we all know someone would leak it for their own gain.

Sturgeon's demands for preferential treatment for Scotland in the Brexit negotiations is also laughable, everyone should be treated the same.

Corky · Post by **Corky** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:01 am

What would be the cost of another referendum. I am happy for the Scots to have another one if they so desire as long as it is paid for wholly by them coming out of whatever pot of national money they have been given to run their country. Obviously this may mean that they have to trim their welfare budget for instance.

I find it amusing that she has mentioned the undemocratic nature of our parliamentary system. Well yes it is and it has been so since time immemorial. We have a ridiculous system of a constitutional monarch but no constitution. We have an unelected second house with over 800 peers the majority of whom do very little for their £300 per day attendance money. Finally we have a first past the post system which meant, last time round, UKIP got 1 seat with almost 4 million votes. So yes we do not live in an undemocratic democracy. Perhaps it should be changed to reflect society at large and their views.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:46 am

Right_winger wrote: Let's also not forget that the SNP have stated theay they will not call for a referendum unless there is a clear will from the Scottish people to do so.

Don't worry, the more that Theresa May plays into the SNP's hands by 'telling the Scottish people what they can or can't do' the more likely it is that opinion will swing towards wanting a referendum. Maybe Andrea Leadsom had a point about May not having children making her a lesser candidate. Ifshe did she'd have recognised that the way to get people to do what you want isn't to just tell them 'no'!

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:49 am

Sidney1st wrote: Have the SNP told the Scottish people how they'd do things, finances, NHS, Defence etc?

No, but apparently having a referendum and then making it up as you go along after the result is the way we do things these days.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:13 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think doing it after Brexit would be fairly stupid. Scotland has a better chance of staying in the EU, or at least striking a Norway-style deal, if they gain independence, or at least vote for it, before the UK has left the EU.

Not only that, but it might take decades for the UK to leave the EU. There's nothing to keep the EU from deciding to keep giving the UK an extra two years to negotiate Brexit. It's pretty unreasonable to expect the SNP to wait until the UK has got its **** together.

Then they should of voted for independance in the last referendum. You know, the one they voted in just before the well publicised brexit vote.
They didn't because, like most people who voted to remain in the EU, they couldn't possibly envisage anyone would disagree with their particular opinion and vote leave.
Just like the remoa... remainers, the Scottish nationalists are throwing their toys out of the pram and demanding we do as they say and indulge them in re runs of the original vote.
Give them another go by all means. But they will have to wait until a time when it suits the rest of us

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:14 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:That is ridiculous, HatfieldClaret.

The differences between the SNP and UKIP both socially and economically are stark. There is simply no comparison.

They only have one thing in common, and that's wanting to leave a Union that they don't think works well for them.

Sorry for being ridiculous.....

What do you see as the difference.s in the types of nationalism?

Different economic policies don't make it a different type of nationalism necessarily.

IT ......I get it. I just don't agree with you. If that's OK like....

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:18 am

Damo wrote:Then they should of voted for independance in the last referendum. You know, the one they voted in just before the well publicised brexit vote.
They didn't because, like most people who voted to remain in the EU, they couldn't possibly envisage anyone would disagree with their particular opinion and vote leave.
Just like the remoa... remainers, the Scottish nationalists are throwing their toys out of the pram and demanding we do as they say and indulge them in re runs of the original vote.
Give them another go by all means. But they will have to wait until a time when it suits the rest of us

They voted in 2014. The EU referendum wasn't on the cards until 2015 when the Conservatives made a part of their manifesto for re-election.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:36 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:They voted in 2014. The EU referendum wasn't on the cards until 2015 when the Conservatives made a part of their manifesto for re-election.

So was the referendum vote to remain in the UK & the EU or just the UK with no thought given to the EU?

I know Sturgeon won the election last year wasn't it?
So that's why it was part of the SNP manifest to hold another referendum to get out of the UK and back into the EU.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:37 am

gtclaret wrote:The Scottish have had a vote on independent and decidedo to stay in the UK.They knew of the EU vote at the time.Therefore they are bound by the vote of the UK.
There is no issue over democracy.People have voted.T May is correct to refuse a second referendum

I agree with you but she hasn't refused, just said not now.
People are arguing that Brexit was voted on without people knowing the consequences, as if that could be foreseen, the Scots likewise, wouldn't have a scooby doo about what the hell they are voting for.
They've had one bite, it's only eight that they get to know what's on offer before being allowed to vote again.
I still find it mind boggling that she complains about being run from Westminster, even with the devolved parliament, then wants to be run ny Brussels, where Holyrood would lose all the power it had.
They might as well change the name to the New West Germany.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:45 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:There's better evidence the proves she does a mandate for the referendum - the SNP's manifesto.

What you have is something Sturgeon said in a speech where she says that in the next five years there's be no referendum unless there's "strong evidence" that the majority of Scots support it. If there wasn't a better piece of evidence of her mandate to call a referendum then you'd have a worthwhile point. Sort of (because "strong evidence" is pretty vague). But your problem is that there is better evidence. The SNP's election manifesto of 2016 literally says that the SNP will seek a second referendum if the UK tries to take Scotland out of the EU against the will of the Scottish people. And that is happening.

Her party was literally elected to office on the promise that if events went the way they are going she'd call for a second referendum. If she doesn't seek a second referendum then she's breaking a manifesto promise to those who voted for her party. And that is a much stronger piece of evidence showing that she does have a mandate than yours that you think shows she doesn't.

A manifesto promise is much stronger than something someone says in a speech, so when you repeatedly avoid using the manifesto which proves her mandate you undermine your own credibility because it shows me that you're basically looking at only the evidence you like, and ignoring the evidence that doesn't support your opinion.

The part of the manifesto in which you refer was a loosely worded section.

Let's not pretend that they have since lost their majority and are now part of a minoriry govt, in the wake of any realistic credible opposition considering the plights of the lib dems and labour, that is some going to loose ground like that.

If they propose to have a mandate then go back to the polls and prove it.

All the opinion polls are against the SNP and they know it.

This call is nothing but grandstanding to cause a distraction from their abysmal record in office.

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:48 am

Can we not just build a Wall to keep her out, OH forgot Italians already tried that and we have Ryanair now so she can get to London for £9.99 though she probably uses a chauffeur driven car at a cost of £1,000 a day, but heh ho she can get that on her expenses sheet what the UK tax payers give her.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:48 am

Sidney1st wrote:So was the referendum vote to remain in the UK & the EU or just the UK with no thought given to the EU?

I know Sturgeon won the election last year wasn't it?
So that's why it was part of the SNP manifest to hold another referendum to get out of the UK and back into the EU.

For crying out loud. I don't know why this is so difficult.

The independence vote was an independence vote. That's all it was. The three main parties from England used EU membership to help the No campaign win.

And no, it doesn't say "and back into the EU", or anything like it, in their manifesto as part of the promise to seek a second independence referendum.