Is Keane better than Stones?

Clarethalffull · Post by **Clarethalffull** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:21 pm

Having an animated debate with a colleague at work.

Obviously I am biased but surely Keane is better than Stones. For me much better decision making.

MarkGreen · Post by **MarkGreen** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:23 pm

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:27 pm

As a centre half there is no comparison. Keane all day long.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:33 pm

IMO No.

Keane looks good for us and stands out ( probably like stones did at Everton ) but I don't think he is as good as Stones yet.
Not much between them, but we won't see Keane's full ability until he is in a top class side where concentration needs to be 100% , 100% of the time, and he is asked to play football.

Fretters · Post by **Fretters** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:34 pm

I don't think Stones is helped by City's chaotic approach to defending. He'd look much better in a well-drilled framework like ours.

Stones and Keane will be England's centre half pairing for years to come.

KefkaClaret · Post by **KefkaClaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:44 pm

Fez · Post by **Fez** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:48 pm

In a team that is constantly on the back foot you need to be 100%, 100% of the time as well

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:50 pm

I'm not sure he's better than Stones but I do feel he's as good as him.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:54 pm

At the top of their form I would say Stones is better controlling or running with the ball, Keane is ahead is every other way

Is Stones a better defender than Ben Mee?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:02 pm

We have had this debate a few times on here but Keane isn't at Stones level yet despite being 2 years older.

Stones would of got loads of stick for the mistake Keane did at Sunderland, he made a tackle and run to the sideline but kept the ball in giving to the opposition for a perfect cross with our CH out the picture.

Both good defenders that will get better but Stones has international and Champions league experience.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:03 pm

Keane has been playing in a settled back 5 now for 2 years

Stones hasn't

Keane has a solid defensive midfield in front of him

Stones doesn't

Keane has a solid central partner

Stones doesn't

Stones get a lot of flack because of his price tag and it's often unjustified. The defence and midfield infront of him is a joke at times. He's learning a different game whilst playing for one of our best sides under immense pressure.

Swap these twos roles over the past two years and we'd be asking is Stones better than Keane

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:04 pm

If Keane was playing in that City side under Pep I think he would be getting the same kind of criticism as Stones.

Not sure how many defenders could cope with Bravo firing the ball at you on the edge of the box with 2 players breathing down your neck and some baldy Spanish bloke screaming his head off at anyone who does not try and "play their way" out of defence !!

I think they are both very good. Both are tall / commanding in the air and both have excellent speed - and it's the speed that puts them apart from other defenders like Otamendi, Kolarov and Ben Mee.

Both are also good at reading the game and timing their challenges.

Stones is probably more comfortable at coming out with the ball - Keane doesn't get the chance really in the way we play.

No reason why they would not make a decent England pairing - probably a better question is whether they are better than Smalling, Jones and Cahill. I'd say defo on first two and getting there on Cahill.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:07 pm

"some baldy Spanish bloke"

Amex · Post by **Amex** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:11 pm

From what I have seen the guy at Southampton is better than both!

cutsy123 · Post by **cutsy123** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:12 pm

He is worth the same as stones, and is a better player

This will be prooved should he get a chance in the England team

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:20 pm

Stones is better for the reasons discussed above

Can they really play successfully together though for England - in a back four I think they both benefit from having a pure stopper who is vocal and organises next to them - like Ferdinand did at United and England

I think the both could play phenomenally in a back three together with a pure stopper - they could be magisterial alongside Cahill for England with some work

northernpowerhouse · Post by **northernpowerhouse** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:07 pm

Nah. It's not Stones' fault that he's been managed by Martinez and Guardiola, two managers who don't give a **** about defending. Dyche would work wonders with him.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:07 pm

cutsy123 wrote:He is worth the same as stones, and is a better player

This will be prooved should he get a chance in the England team

Really ? You mean when they are playing the likes of Malta or Lithuania or meaningless friendlies.

It will be proved when Keane has to play for one of the top clubs like Everton and Man City and even more importantly when he has gone for a big fee and every time he farts you have dozens of pundits and experts analysing his guff from 42 different angles !!

minnieclaret · Post by **minnieclaret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:33 pm

Stones is such a natural athlete, he floats across the ground. Keane is no slouch but doesn't look as good.
Stones thinks he is a better footballer than he is. He causes his team many problems by carrying the ball forward, losing it and leaving Citeh open to the counter. Keane doesn't make this type of mistake. The error on Saturday was schoolboyish, if ever a ball wanted putting in row Z that was it.
I'd have either of them but wouldn't have paid more than £25m for Stones.

THEWELLERNUT70 · Post by **THEWELLERNUT70** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:25 pm

Keane is

A better header of the ball
Quicker
A better blocker
A better tackler
A better man marker
Has better anticipation
Holds his position better

Other than that Stones is the better player

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:37 pm

everybody knows Tarks is better than them both

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:04 pm

He wasn't a year ago, and might nor be in 12 months time, but he is at the moment.
Stones still needs to settle at city, Keane has yet to show what he can do in a top drawer team.
Both excellent and I wouldn't like to guess who will dominate in the future.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:49 pm

Stones is prone to more than the odd high profile howler! Whereas Keane....(best not just in case)

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:25 pm

I never thought Stones was a particularly good defender even at Everton. I remember him playing at right back a couple of years ago, when he was touted as one for the future, and being extremely disappointed. Very poor reader of the big picture. A couple of years on, and I was surprised it was the same Jon Stones that all the pundits seemed to be raving about. But again, I still didn't see him as a very good defender. He made so many mistakes. Then the pundits went on about his footballing qualities, his touch, his passing, his ability to bring the ball out from defence. But I still didn't see it. Fast forward a huge transfer fee, and playing for a bigger club, and I'm still not convinced. He just isn't a very good defender. Pundits are now talking about how defenders have changed, and being good on the ball is more important, but I disagree. To be a top class defender you have to be good on the ball, but first and foremost, especially of you don't have a proper defender playing next to you, you have to be excellent at defending. Michael Keane, despite still being short of a top top class defender, is better then Stones, and if he improves, will be England's number 5 for years to come

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:08 am

Not one of Keanes albums comes anywhere near any of the Stones classics such as Out of our heads or Let It Bleed or Sticky Fingers,

So the Stones all day long for me.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:34 am

Stones good but overrated. Keane getting better and better. As said above both better than Smalling and Jones.

KateR · Post by **KateR** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:53 pm

the stats say he is

http://outside90.com/englands-starting- ... aphic-352/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sorry don't know how to do it as a direct link

however stats are sometimes misleading and it is probably more important what Southgate thinks than we do but personally feel they are close, shame they just don't pick Keane & Mee as the pairing and just be done with it, players in the same team usually have a better understanding than of 2 players from different teams, but that's just me

bfc1984 · Post by **bfc1984** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:24 pm

Obviously your a bit braindead if you think stones is a better defender than Keane.Think people listen to stupid pundits and read to many newspapers.What the hell had it gained him being the most accomplished centre half in the division on the ball? Zilch! People get all caught up in this bubble with all the crap they talk about.Last week on the radio they had a discussion on the radio for around two hours about the number '10' role I mean it's just a 2nd striker people talk absolute crap and make mega money.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:48 pm

KateR wrote:the stats say he is

http://outside90.com/englands-starting- ... aphic-352/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sorry don't know how to do it as a direct link

however stats are sometimes misleading and it is probably more important what Southgate thinks than we do but personally feel they are close, shame they just don't pick Keane & Mee as the pairing and just be done with it, players in the same team usually have a better understanding than of 2 players from different teams, but that's just me

As with all statistics, it's the interpretation of them that is important. I don't think it's fair to compare the number of blocks / tackles / interceptions / clearances per game, as Keane is almost certainly going to have to do more defending than Stones, given the team he plays in. Chances are that all defenders in the bottom half would have more per game than Stones. Comparing percentage of duels won does give some indication, but again, winning a header against Llorente to deny a definite goal scoring opportunity is far more indicative of good defending than winning a header against Defoe on the halfway line. Players that sniff out danger early are likely to be involved in fewer duels than those that got caught out. The telling factor for me (although still a subjective observation) is the number of errors made. Keane has played more games, more minutes, and had to do much more defending, but has made fewer errors. Of course, you have to be there to make an error. This is where I feel Keane still has to improve. Occasionally he is in no mans land when crosses from the byline come in. Other than that though, I think he's pretty solid.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:40 pm

Gets the nod ahead of Stones tonight.

KateR · Post by **KateR** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:43 pm

Rooster,
don't shoot the messenger, I just copied and pasted and did say "stats are misleading"!

The question was in regard to is he better than Stones, not can he improve because he and everyone else including Stones/Cahill can improve so that is just erroneous info and your opinion. Remember you are allowed your own opinion but you are NOT allowed your own facts

I suppose everyone should have answered yes/no/same, but we all want to have our say lol

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:12 pm

Keano is a class act and reminds me of Gary Cahill how he controls the defence.There will be debate 're his value but personally nothing less than £40m should be taken if he decides he wants to move on.

Holtyclaret · Post by **Holtyclaret** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:54 pm

After tonight's performance he already is!

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:29 pm

Not for me, I think Stones is given a horrible run, he's stuck in a team hellbent on throwing men forward leaving him out to dry with a sh""e keeper behind him and a poor old defence around him. Every time Stones makes a little mistake it's all over the news and he gets slated. Pep said himself that being a defender in a Pep team isn't an easy task. People don't seem to look at different scenarios when comparing, the fact Keane is playing in a defensive system and Stones in an attacking system is completely ignored when it's a huge deal when comparing. It's hard to say who's better until we see both in the same set up but I think Keane would struggle positionally in a side like City.

bedfords · Post by **bedfords** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:57 pm

KRBFC wrote:Not for me, I think Stones is given a horrible run, he's stuck in a team hellbent on throwing men forward leaving him out to dry with a sh""e keeper behind him and a poor old defence around him. Every time Stones makes a little mistake it's all over the news and he gets slated. Pep said himself that being a defender in a Pep team isn't an easy task. People don't seem to look at different scenarios when comparing, the fact Keane is playing in a defensive system and Stones in an attacking system is completely ignored when it's a huge deal when comparing. It's hard to say who's better until we see both in the same set up but I think Keane would struggle positionally in a side like City.

He said £40m.......

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:59 pm

bedfords wrote:He said £40m.......

What? I'm confused...

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:18 am

KRBFC wrote:Not for me, I think Stones is given a horrible run, he's stuck in a team hellbent on throwing men forward leaving him out to dry with a sh""e keeper behind him and a poor old defence around him. Every time Stones makes a little mistake it's all over the news and he gets slated. Pep said himself that being a defender in a Pep team isn't an easy task. People don't seem to look at different scenarios when comparing, the fact Keane is playing in a defensive system and Stones in an attacking system is completely ignored when it's a huge deal when comparing. It's hard to say who's better until we see both in the same set up but I think Keane would struggle positionally in a side like City.

I was agreeing until the last bit which is pure conjecture

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:26 am

boatshed bill wrote:I was agreeing until the last bit which is pure conjecture

Did the "i think" bit give it away?

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:12 am

boatshed bill wrote:I was agreeing until the last bit which is pure conjecture

I think Keanes biggest weakness is his positioning especially from crosses, Im sure he will learn with more experience.

Jeremy_Bentham · Post by **Jeremy_Bentham** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:47 am

. thinks Keane was lucky not to be punished after his mistake just after the Germany goal last night.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:10 am

Keane will be the more effective and useful player to England because he keeps it simple.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:09 pm

Keane was impressive last night bar that one mistake that Hart saved his bacon with. If he scores he probably doesn't play again for a while but that's football at the top level.
But everything was in Keane's favour last night, 3 at the back helped him not get exposed to his slight weakness of strikers getting in between him and Lowton at times.
The formation was impressive and one I think would suit Burnley to a tee.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:19 pm

James Tarkowski YYAAAAAYYYYYYY

Ightenclaret · Post by **Ightenclaret** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:41 am

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:17 am

KRBFC wrote:I think Keanes biggest weakness is his positioning especially from crosses, Im sure he will learn with more experience.

Agree. I've seen Keane numerous times look around after we have conceded from crosses, only to realise the player who scored was his man.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:31 am

If defending crosses is our problem pehaps a bit of old school full back tackling were you actually stop the cross in the first place.While we are on stats look at how many crosses originate from our right side with Lowton and Boyd failing to cut out this supply
.We found this to our cost at Swansea .although the first goal was a cross Ward should have cut out.
In the main Michael did well v Germany except when his right back Walker went awol leaving him to mark two attackers

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:31 pm

Ex United coach Paul McGuinness says he's better than Mats Hummers

http://www.anfield360.com/2017/03/24/li ... ted-coach/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:39 pm

Hard to say until Keane moves on and plays regularly for one of the big boys. He gets so much cover playing in our team, basically the entire XI is set up to keep things tight.
Stones is playing in a team that is basically all out attack, with a different back four most games and no real cover in front of him.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:16 pm

Woodleyclaret wrote:If defending crosses is our problem pehaps a bit of old school full back tackling were you actually stop the cross in the first place.While we are on stats look at how many crosses originate from our right side with Lowton and Boyd failing to cut out this supply
.We found this to our cost at Swansea .although the first goal was a cross Ward should have cut out.
In the main Michael did well v Germany except when his right back Walker went awol leaving him to mark two attackers

Yeah I agree entirely with this. We don't stop nearly enough crosses from coming in. Mee was a real liability for this before he got moved from LB to CB. And I've said before, Boyd and Arfield do a lot of running, but it's no good being back in a defensive position if you just stand back and let them cross it anyway. It happens too often. Ward is occasionally caught out, but I doubt it's anywhere near as often as Lowton now, or Mee in the past. The stats would be interesting to see which side concedes most crosses.