Didi Hamann: No England player would get into the Germany team

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:23 pm

http://blog.paddypower.com/football/lat ... m=referral" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I thought this comment was quite interesting -

"We just produce world class players. England haven’t managed to do that, they’ve got some talented players, but they don’t get any better when they get to 18, 19, 20. Maybe it’s because they get too much money, but that’s how clubs are run."

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:25 pm

Can't argue with any of that.

Loads of potentially talented players that just end up being half decent internationally. I honestly can't think of any of our players in the last 20 or so years that would walk into one of the top international sides of their era.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:29 pm

He's right, you know, and the PL, Sky and the FA should be ashamed of themselves.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:30 pm

Good point well made. The proof is in the international pudding, which has yielded nothing in 50 years. Not sure why there's ever really a debate about the national team. Or is it one of those "only the public know" and everyone on TV/pros etc just hide away from saying it.

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:46 pm

I'd say it's game time rather than mentality, although being paid £40k a week to not play football must dampen your enthusiasm somewhat, perhaps even make you pine for the days of learning the violin in your daddy's mansion or something.

But if each club had to select 12/13 players eligible to play for England in their 25 man squads then they'd get the game time. For a few years the overall quality of the league would possibly diminish, but eventually you'd have a host of young English players that have been properly blooded.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:48 pm

Alan Shearer was a top striker.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:49 pm

The homegrown rule is open to abuse unfortunately.

A player can be classed as homegrown if they're at the academy for x amount of years.
Personally it should be for those born here or passport holders.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:49 pm

'Southgate.......authentic and can bring a certain type of perspective to the game'

He also says the above which, unfortunately, I'm unable to comprehend. Not unduly bothered as international football doesn't interest me much but sometimes it might be advisable for pundits to keep things a little more simple.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:51 pm

With England its always the next big Saviour, always pinning their hopes on one person to fire them to glory.

Germany do it right in progressing a team of players through the youth ranks to first team.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:51 pm

I'd also say Dele Alli is a very good player as well.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:53 pm

Spijed wrote:Alan Shearer was a top striker.

When compared to someone like Klinsmann at international level?

Shearer's goal record at international level is no better then someone like Oliver Bierhoff.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:54 pm

Spijed wrote:I'd also say Dele Alli is a very good player as well.

He's not quite a Kroos or Reus though.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:54 pm

Two problems we have in my opinion are
1. Over coaching- We don't seem to let players express themselves but comply with how that particular coach wants the game played. Letting kids play at school and with their mates until 16 could rebalance this.

2.The Public criticize too much. Take John Stones for instance who has potential to become world class. Every mistake where he is trying to do something good getting shouted down with kick it into row Z etc. Every average footballer could kick it in row Z and it just encourages the players to come back to that level.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:56 pm

Blaming it on money is nonsense. English players get built up way beyond their ability after only a handful of appearances in the league. We just don't let them develop. Walcott is a prime example where he was put into a world cup squad when he shouldn't have been. It's hampered his career because people have unrealistic expectations of him and he wasn't left to develop at his own pace.

Mattster · Post by **Mattster** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:58 pm

Sidney1st wrote:He's not quite a Kroos or Reus though.

Both are 7 years older than him so that's not a fair comparison.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:59 pm

Money must play a part though, if we're making them 'rich' at a young age it can't be good.

Look at Rashford - wasn't on much, £7.5k a week, when he broke into UTD's first team whilst Bamford was on £30k a week and no where near the first team at Chelsea.

northernpowerhouse · Post by **northernpowerhouse** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:10 pm

Kane and Rose would walk into that German side. Their best striker is Mario Gomez and left-back has been their weakness for ages.

But yeah I take his point.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:12 pm

I'd say the biggest (or one of) downfalls is lack of technical ability. When most England's players get the ball they take a second longer to control and turn than Germany, Spain, Brazil players et al. Look at our central defenders. In the past, it's taken them a second longer to receive the ball from the keeper, control it, turn and release the ball.

Whether this is down to coaching I don't know, as many of them train at the same clubs as other foreign players, but that's something consistent through the England sides.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:26 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Money must play a part though, if we're making them 'rich' at a young age it can't be good.

Look at Rashford - wasn't on much, £7.5k a week, when he broke into UTD's first team whilst Bamford was on £30k a week and no where near the first team at Chelsea.

That's the point I was trying to make. These you players get hyped up and thrown in the Main England squad and everybody is expecting great things. He shouldn't be in the squad yet. The german way worked because they left their young players in the u21 to develop not only as individuals but as a team.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:29 pm

I agree. There are no world class players in the current England setup.

The closest to being world class are probably Dele Alli and Harry Kane.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:52 pm

In my opinion, truly world class players are very rare. Not all barcelonas team are world class. Neither are all RM's or bayerns. But remove the world class players from these teams and what you are left with are a damn sight closer to world class than anyone in our international set up.

The way I look at it, there should only be 22 players out there who could be classed the best of the best. A team of 11 needs to play someone their equal to sort it out once and for all. And in that 22, there wouldn't be a single English player imo.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:27 pm

Mattster wrote:Both are 7 years older than him so that's not a fair comparison.

And I would suggest that age holds little relevance to this debate. Beckenbauer was 20 years old in the '66 World Cup and I would find it difficult to offer up a name of a better midfield player anywhere in the world at the time. The only thing that changed for Beckenbauer was that he did get better but this happens only rarely. Many players 'peak' at a relatively young age and of modern day players I can only think of Ronaldo and Messi who have more than fulfilled their early potential.

Diesel · Post by **Diesel** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:32 pm

Would Harry Kane take all Germany's corners though?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:41 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:And I would suggest that age holds little relevance to this debate. Beckenbauer was 20 years old in the '66 World Cup and I would find it difficult to offer up a name of a better midfield player anywhere in the world at the time. The only thing that changed for Beckenbauer was that he did get better but this happens only rarely. Many players 'peak' at a relatively young age and of modern day players I can only think of Ronaldo and Messi who have more than fulfilled their early potential.

Beckenbauer was a sweeper, but I get what you're saying.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:18 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Beckenbauer was a sweeper, but I get what you're saying.

A moot point so early in his career. In the 66 final W. Germany had, for that era of football, a very flexible line-up. At the back there were full backs Hottges and Schnellinger and then a central three of Schulz(out and out defender) with Weber and Beckenbauer making up a 'five'. Beckenbauer was the driving force of a team about to embark on a golden era and his role in the team was absolutely crucial to their success. When the term 'world class' is mentioned Beckenbauer has to be a name very close to the top of the list.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:22 pm

He's one of the best defenders the game has seen, which shows how good he was when you look at the company hes in.

Moore, Baresi, Maldini etc.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:23 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:And I would suggest that age holds little relevance to this debate. Beckenbauer was 20 years old in the '66 World Cup and I would find it difficult to offer up a name of a better midfield player anywhere in the world at the time. The only thing that changed for Beckenbauer was that he did get better but this happens only rarely. Many players 'peak' at a relatively young age and of modern day players I can only think of Ronaldo and Messi who have more than fulfilled their early potential.

Centre halves in today's football get better with age and it's a totally game to what it was 50 years ago.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:24 pm

Sidney1st wrote:When compared to someone like Klinsmann at international level?

Shearer's goal record at international level is no better then someone like Oliver Bierhoff.

Bierhoff has the best record of all three.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:26 pm

The problem with our young players is they dont have the bottle. Its ok saying they cant get a game for foreigners but tons pf foreigners come here young and old.

How many english kids would go abroad when released at a young age?

Theyre all too used to home comforts and not got the drive to test themselves.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:26 pm

I thought Klinsmann had scored more?

Or are you referring to goals/game ratio?

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:28 pm

Sidney1st wrote:I thought Klinsmann had scored more?

Or are you referring to goals/game ratio?

Klinsmann scored 3 more yes.

corporal jones · Post by **corporal jones** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:31 pm

As I am reading these posts, I am waiting for the game to start and ITV are doing a special feature on Dele Ali going back to his junior days and Mk Dons etc. He has done nothing, won nothing and is probably unknown anywhere except here and we are building him up into a world beater already. There's your problem.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:42 pm

It's certainly a myth that England haven't got the players to win a major tournament when the likes of Denmark & Greece can do it.

How many of the Greek players would have been regulars at PL level, for example?

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:44 pm

Spijed wrote:Alan Shearer was a top striker.

... At Blackburn rovers.

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:46 pm

What is a myth is that there was ever a golden era of England international football. The inter war years up until we got smashed by the Magyars and a brief summer in 66 and apart from that, we've always been poor at international level. Its not the premier league or Skys fault.

Shore claret · Post by **Shore claret** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:08 pm

Saxoman wrote:... At Blackburn rovers.

Just a stepping stone until he got the move he wanted.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:45 pm

Saxoman wrote:... At Blackburn rovers.

You'll have to remind me, because it's a while ago now, but was he paid for by money you had or earned naturally, or through being bankrolled?

No hate, just asking.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:53 pm

Didi Hamann, the football pundit who writes for the Racing Post and at the start of the 2016/2017 season tipped Burnley to be relegated and Chesterfield to win Sky Bet League One. They are currently only 45 points behind Sheffield United so who knows?

This is obviously a man who knows what he is talking about so let me hang on to his every word.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:57 pm

People tipped Leicester to get relegated the year they won the league, tips can be wrong.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:15 pm

English players just aren't very good, we have Livermore, Ward Prowse and Redmond playing for the national team

. The standard has dropped drastically over time, the weakest England squad in a long long time.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:10 am

corporal jones wrote:As I am reading these posts, I am waiting for the game to start and ITV are doing a special feature on Dele Ali going back to his junior days and Mk Dons etc. He has done nothing, won nothing and is probably unknown anywhere except here and we are building him up into a world beater already. There's your problem.

He's not yet world class but he has the potential to be. As for him being unknown anywhere except the UK, that's crackers. With the coverage the Premier League gets all over the world, people know him. The TV pundits and commentators here in Spain seem to really admire him.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 am

KRBFC wrote:English players just aren't very good, we have Livermore, Ward Prowse and Redmond playing for the national team . The standard has dropped drastically over time, the weakest England squad in a long long time.

Not very good teams can still win international tournaments, see Denmark & Greece.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:09 pm

of course Hamann is right. Not one of the English players is German, so none would get in the German team!

Not one German would get in the England team!

lucs86 · Post by **lucs86** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:10 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Two problems we have in my opinion are
1. Over coaching- We don't seem to let players express themselves but comply with how that particular coach wants the game played. Letting kids play at school and with their mates until 16 could rebalance this.

2.The Public criticize too much. Take John Stones for instance who has potential to become world class. Every mistake where he is trying to do something good getting shouted down with kick it into row Z etc. Every average footballer could kick it in row Z and it just encourages the players to come back to that level.

The second point you make is mostly the fault of the media rather than the public. I've never lived abroad so can't say whether it's any different on the continent, but young players in this country get so much hype after a few performances, they're built up to be worldbeaters before they've even had a challenge. No doubt it's fed by agents trying to get big contracts or transfers and us fans being desperate for the new saviour. John Stones has been talked up so much in the media and has had daft money spent on him: young or not that means people have expectations of him that he's not really been meeting. The higher they build someone up the more people will feel they need bringing down when they don't meet expectations. We shoud build them up less.

I saw some numbers the other day, can't be bothered to find them again now, but I think it was comparing the England and German U21 teams. The German players had played about 5 times as many top flight minutes this season than the English. I'd say there's probably quite a lot in that. Maye if there were more young English players getting gametime we'd be less likely to build them up so much.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:21 pm

Maybe when they cant break through here they should test themselves abroad like most foreigners do

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:35 pm

Regarding U21s. We seem to fast track players straight into the full squad after only a handful of first team appearances. I get it in some cases Owen, Rooney but Rashford?? He looks promising but we are talking International football. He's not there yet. Any english player below 20 only need to have 5/10 decent games at epl level and he's in thd squad and our saviour.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:33 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Not very good teams can still win international tournaments, see Denmark & Greece.

yeah but what happened after that? they won 1 tournament and did nothing afterwards. Flukes can happen, but we're talking about being consistently challenging for years to come. Fluke was probably the wrong word but i'm sure you get my point.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:45 pm

Oliver Burke:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39344413" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Michael Mancienne:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... vin-keegan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:53 pm

Hipper wrote:Oliver Burke:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39344413" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Michael Mancienne:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... vin-keegan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Burke isn't English so I don't see the relevance

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:56 pm

I think that the style of football in England is a major factor in the lack of 'world-class' English players.

Also the competitive cut-throat nature of the Premier League, with the demands for instant success, means that managers and coaches concentrate much more on who can they buy cheap from abroad to do the job NOW rather than developing and giving game time to young English prospects. The intensity and speed of Premier League football with it's emphasis on fast movement of the ball rather than the ball work of most continental football makes managers wary of giving untested individuals more than a few minutes gametime until little or nothing is at stake. The managers job is often on the line so one poor performance from a young player could see them dropped from the 1st team squad next week.