Royal Marine

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:43 pm

Alexander Blackman to be released within two weeks after having his sentence reduced..

A big well done to his wife and all concerned in getting his unjust sentence reduced..

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest- ... an-fighter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:46 pm

What in your opinion was unjust about his sentence?

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:49 pm

Cold blooded murderer, caught on camera. Disgrace to his country.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:52 pm

Didn't they get it reduced by saying he was suffering PTSD or something similar?

Shooting a wounded person dead was brutal, and the sentance wasn't unjust, but all the people calling him some sort of hero etc got what they wanted I suppose.
My FB newsfeed is full of guff about this.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:56 pm

I don't know enough about combat stress and its effects, but the camera footage does Sgt Blackman no favours.

Manslaughter was probably the correct decision in the end though, but you can't help thinking that a lot of people were looking for a way out that didn't either justify murder or result in a very long prison sentence.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:57 pm

Murder?
During a war?
The enemy?

I'm confused as to why he would have got sentenced in the first place.

Nice for him to know that at least the people who he fault side by side by, and trusted to protect each other's life grassed him up..

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:57 pm

It makes you wonder what's the point of the Geneva convention if it gets ignored.

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:01 pm

Rileybobs wrote:What in your opinion was unjust about his sentence?

The length of time he was given... Just my opinion but,but I think he has served long enough and the reduced sentence is about right .. What he did was wrong,but under the pressures of war in Afghanistan it's bound to affect people's judgements..

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:01 pm

MACCA wrote:Murder?
During a war?
The enemy?

I'm confused as to why he would have got sentenced in the first place.

Nice for him to know that at least the people who he fault side by side by, and trusted to protect each other's life grassed him up..

Have you seen the video clip of him shooting dead a wounded person who was already on the floor and telling the lads to keep it amongst themselves or they'd be in trouble?

If you haven't go and see it, if you're fishing then fair enough.

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:03 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Have you seen the video clip of him shooting dead a wounded person who was already on the floor and telling the lads to keep it amongst themselves or they'd be in trouble?

If you haven't go and see it, if you're fishing then fair enough.

It's not as though the Taliban would have done anything like that is it..

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:05 pm

MACCA wrote:Murder?
During a war?
The enemy?

I'm confused as to why he would have got sentenced in the first place.

Nice for him to know that at least the people who he fault side by side by, and trusted to protect each other's life grassed him up..

Even in war there are certain rules to be adhered to, namely those laid out in the Geneva Convention.

On the one hand you can argue that Mr Blackman killed the man for the ''greater good'' in that its one less Taliban fighter.

We are supposed to set an example through integrity, honesty and professionalism regardless of what the opposition get up to.

minnieclaret · Post by **minnieclaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:07 pm

conyoviejo wrote:It's not as though the Taliban would have done anything like that is it..

We are supposed to be better than them animals.
As posted above, the fact that he warned them all off shows he knew exactly what he was doing with forethought. Murder for me.

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:10 pm

minnieclaret wrote:We are supposed to be better than them animals.
As posted above, the fact that he warned them all off shows he knew exactly what he was doing with forethought. Murder for me.

Manslaughter for me,due to the stress of war.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:12 pm

Two wrongs don't make a right, and we have to at least try and stick to our principles.

Having said that, I read quite an enlightening piece from a reporter who'd spent a lot of time in Afghanistan and Helmand, telling of the sort of conditions and chaos we put people into. Can't find the link to it now. On top of some of the things they saw out there, I'm not sure any of us can be 100% on how we'd behave, regardless of training. Doesn't mean he's not guilty, but a bit of understanding about what we're asking young men to do in these places is good.

Imagine if we'd have helmet cameras in WW2. The cases would still be being heard now.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:12 pm

MACCA wrote:Murder?
During a war?
The enemy?

I'm confused as to why he would have got sentenced in the first place.

Nice for him to know that at least the people who he fault side by side by, and trusted to protect each other's life grassed him up..

conyoviejo wrote:
It's not as though the Taliban would have done anything like that is it..

*video contains adult language*
Watch it from 5mins 20 secs, he even admits on film to breaking Geneva convention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKxCZxPmvN8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bfccrazy · Post by **bfccrazy** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:12 pm

conyoviejo wrote:It's not as though the Taliban would have done anything like that is it..

Also gives the Taliban a chance to twist it and add more fuel to feed their dross and show how barbaric the "enemy" also is. Could be argued it undoes a lot of the hard work that many many members of our armed forces do which isn't combat related directly when in foreign lands such as building the rapport with locals and spreading a more peaceful message.

Personally I have no qualms with what he did on a level that if it was the other way round he would have probably had 10 taliban insurgents shoot him...... But I can see both sides of the argument and with the Sgt having to uphold the Geneva conventions rules.... He was in the wrong by law which means he will be punished.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:15 pm

It is fine to take the moral high ground, but surely if you are at war and the opposition don't play by the same rules you have a problem. Yes we are supposed to be better than them, we are - otherwise we would have dragged the taliban fighter into the open and cut his head off on camera for a laugh.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:20 pm

They executed him off camera instead and admitted to breaking the Geneva convention......

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:23 pm

Sidney1st wrote:*video contains adult language*
Watch it from 5mins 20 secs, he even admits on film to breaking Geneva convention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKxCZxPmvN8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know what you're saying Sidney, it's right to bring this to court, it's important that we do.

I'm just suggesting a video of everything this guy had seen and been through in the 6 months before that 5 minutes would be pretty enlightening too. We're asking them to do these pretty horrific and hugely damaging jobs - which I accept is what they've signed up to - but if we're going to sit in judgement we should do everything to make sure we understand what they've been through to that point.

It's easy to ignore all the madness and horrors we pack them off to face and then sit behind a computer back in our comfy lives saying, 'well, murder is murder'.

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:25 pm

Sidney1st wrote:*video contains adult language*
Watch it from 5mins 20 secs, he even admits on film to breaking Geneva convention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKxCZxPmvN8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yep,I agree with you Sidney,it's pretty grim,but I still think he should have been charged with Manslaughter due to the pressures they were under. I wonder how many times that same scenario has happened in Wars..

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:26 pm

He was merely finishing off what an Apache AH64 started and the way he did it was, initially, more cost effective. However, with the subsequent trials it probably wasn't in the end. Not having been there I am not going to presume I know better than the guys who have, but I can see why he did it and I am glad he is going to be released. Such things have been going on in war since time immemorial and it won't stop any time soon.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:27 pm

NottsClaret wrote:I know what you're saying Sidney, it's right to bring this to court, it's important that we do.

I'm just suggesting a video of everything this guy had seen and been through in the 6 months before that 5 minutes would be pretty enlightening too. We're asking them to do these pretty horrific and hugely damaging jobs - which I accept is what they've signed up to - but if we're going to sit in judgement we should do everything to make sure we understand what they've been through to that point.

It's easy to ignore all the madness and horrors we pack them off to face and then sit behind a computer back in our comfy lives saying, 'well, murder is murder'.

Fair comment about what he's been through, but all the hand wringing from people who're saying he shouldn't have been locked up is laughable.

He took his gun and shot a wounded person, told them to shuffle off this mortal coil, then asked the lads to keep it quiet because he's just broken the Geneva convention.
Stressed or not from his previous time in the country, his actions were done on purpose, not by accident etc.

I don't know if I would've done the same, I've never been in his position, but then I've never wanted to be in the Army like some of my school friends did.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:27 pm

If the taliban are defined as barbarians because of their lack of humanity, what does it make us when we say we should be like them?

I don't see anything wrong with this decision. I wouldn't have minded if his conviction had remained as murder either. As long as this decision was based purely on the evidence and not affected by the feelings of the extremists among us who think our soldiers should be able to literally get away with murder.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:28 pm

conyoviejo wrote:Yep,I agree with you Sidney,it's pretty grim,but I still think he should have been charged with Manslaughter due to the pressures they were under. I wonder how many times that same scenario has happened in Wars..

Probably more then we can all count, but this one was caught on camera and on that basis he had to be charged with a crime.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:29 pm

BennyD wrote:He was merely finishing off what an Apache AH64 started and the way he did it was, initially, more cost effective. However, with the subsequent trials it probably wasn't in the end. Not having been there I am not going to presume I know better than the guys who have, but I can see why he did it and I am glad he is going to be released. Such things have been going on in war since time immemorial and it won't stop any time soon.

That's fair enough, but there is absolutely no point in having trials for war crimes and breaking the Geneva convention if it's considered part of being a soldier on the front line.

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:31 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:If the taliban are defined as barbarians because of their lack of humanity, what does it make us when we say we should be like them?

I don't see anything wrong with this decision. I wouldn't have minded if his conviction had remained as murder either. As long as this decision was based purely on the evidence and not affected by the feelings of the extremists among us who think our soldiers should be able to literally get away with murder.

Quite agree with that and I think common sense has prevailed by reducing his sentence to manslaughter ..

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:39 pm

Wow, consensus on a potentially megathread, and on the first page as well!

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:40 pm

Unless you have followed the trial and know all the facts it's hard to form an opinion. But from all the afghan programs I have watched I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to escort prisoners back to base when they come under fire so often. We don't have big units compared to the Americans for instance so I wouldn't want half my men focusing on transporting Taliban back rather than keeping his own soldiers alive.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:40 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Wow, consensus on a potentially megathread, and on the first page as well!

Apart from the daft disgrace to the country quote

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:59 pm

I wouldn't say it's daft. It's a different opinion but certainly nto an extreme one. The man killed a guy in cold blood. It's perfectly fair to think he is entirely responcible and if so it's also perfectly fair to call him a murderer and a disgrace.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:05 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I wouldn't say it's daft. It's a different opinion but certainly nto an extreme one. The man killed a guy in cold blood. It's perfectly fair to think he is entirely responcible and if so it's also perfectly fair to call him a murderer and a disgrace.

Apparenlty not according to the hand wringers

JarrowClaret · Post by **JarrowClaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:32 pm

The Geneva Convention is there to protect our Soldiers and there's just because one side doesn't adhere to them rules isn't an excuse to break it. POWs should be treated humanely no matter what they have done as my Mum always said 2 wrongs don't make a right. I don't know the details of this case but have seen the video and what the guy says disgusts me as an ex Soldier. Having said that I can fully understand the pressures of war could have some influence here so I would guess manslaughter with diminished responsibility would be about right. Celebrating the verdict is for his Family though not something I would like to do.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:33 pm

the worst kind of soldier.

the guy is an out and out murderer.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:45 pm

The celebrating outside the court today was nauseous.
I have seen the video several times on the news.

As others have said above...in all the recent wars/conflicts that we have been involved in, going back say to the Falklands War, there have been the Good Guys vs the Bad Guys..[guess which ones we were?]

We know what the Bad Guys do..they don't obey the 'rules of war' they kill people 'willy nilly' without thinking about it.

If we now do the same, are we any better than them?

This will just lead to a 'free for all' on all sides, no rules, if we are not careful.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:51 pm

In the rush to come across as fair minded in how we shouldn't make excuses for 'our boys', there does seem a disregard from some folk for the mental damage that had already been done to this Marine.

The same people who I'd usually expect to understand a bit more about why a criminal ends up committing crimes domestically, i.e. background, poverty etc seem totally incapable of having any compassion whatsoever because it's a British soldier - backed by the ****ing Daily Mail - who's seen more trauma, fear and brutality in a week than we'll see in a lifetime.

It's not an easy one this.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:52 pm

At the point of shooting the wounded insurgent he would have been high on adrenaline and took it upon himself to deliver the 'coupe de grace' after asking if anyone wanted to administer first aid.

This was clearly wrong and to defend it as acceptable is clearly wrong but people who have never been faced with his options are not in a position to judge him.

Moralise maybe but judge? Not for me.

I retired as an RSM, long before the stressful theatres of Iraq and Afghanistan and this never sat comfortably with me but people now need to move on, as does he.

There are worse people in society, especially those that deliberately harm babies and children only to be let off because of their social worker pleading their case.

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:52 pm

I've fought in 2 different wars. I was also on the tour immediately after this one and spent half of my tour fighting quite literally a few Km just down the road from where this happened. 6 weeks after this incident it would've been me talking to the Apache, talking them onto the target before giving the clearance to fire. I have killed people, but the key point is that I did so legally. He knew that he'd broken the Law of Armed Conflict when he pulled the trigger, but I also agree with the decision that he was under immense stress. I know exactly what its like when your unit takes casualties. I know what its like to patrol around knowing that the next step you take could result in a triple amputation. I know what the other side did to that poor young Jock who left his PB and also what they did with the body parts of coalition soldiers that they recovered. Frankly, it's not nice but I accept that war isn't always a nice thing.

Did he deserve to get off scot free? No - he committed a crime and he knew he'd done it. Was it murder? Not in my opinion. 99.9% of the people on here won't have the experience I have had and I may not convince everyone, but I think we've eventually got to the right legal decision.

What would I have done? Exactly what I did whenever I had the opportunity and make sure I finished him off with the Apache......

NCClaret · Post by **NCClaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:53 pm

A lot of simple black and white analysis here in condemning Sgt. Blackman.
A revealing insight into this is in a BBC documentary by filmmaker Chris Terrill. Listen to the contributors, especially Lt. Col. Oliver Lee who resigned his commission in disgust at the way the military authorities handled this and basically hung Sgt. Blackman and his men out to dry over the six months of their tour of duty. He is no apologist for what Blackman did but there is perspective, particularly when it became apparent the complexity and danger of calling in air support to treat what was a fatally wounded person. Perspective needs to be taken in this hugely complex issue rather than deducing that the man is simply an 'out and out murderer'. How many on this board have had to make life and death decisions ... they are never black and white.
I wish Alexander Blackman well and hope the authorities see fit to help him and other wounded military to recover from their injuries - physical and mental - with the same vigour as they prosecuted him.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:07 pm

If we can shake hands and forgive people like that tosser who died last week and his pal Adams surely we can forgive this guy.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:23 pm

I find the stress card a little convenient in this instance, admittedly though without either experience of being in such an environment or understanding of the mental issues he may have been suffering from.

I find it hard to believe that someone who was not of sound mind at the time of the incident would have had the wherewithal to discuss keeping it quiet with his comrades, be fully aware of the convention he was breaking and ensuring that the incident remained off camera.

Whether or not the wounded man would have been difficult or dangerous to move, it was not his decision to make. I get the picture of a thug who took advantage of his position and committed a calculated act, which for me means it was murderous.

The bloke is a disgrace to all of the British service men and women who do a hugely difficult job in unimaginable situations, but manage to do it within the rules of engagement.

As has been said, acting in this way makes us as bad as the animals that we are trying to defeat and I'm sure only goes to hinder the effort to win hearts and minds in the communities in which they are operating.

He will now no doubt earn a fortune from interviews, books and whatever else the publicity agents can get for him. He shouldn't be allowed to make a single penny from this sorry affair.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:40 pm

What would happen to the Taliban soldier once he got back to base and handed over to the local authorities? Death sentence? Let free? Life in prison?

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:43 pm

Whatever happened to him after, even if this was a death sentence, it wasn't the soldiers call to make. He effectively made himself judge, jury and executioner.

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:46 pm

DCWat wrote: The bloke is a disgrace to all of the British service men and women who do a hugely difficult job in unimaginable situations, but manage to do it within the rules of engagement.

You are obviously allowed your own opinion (I think, does that apply on this forum!?). Out of interest, are you a Serviceman or Servicewomen? If not, then in my opinion you don't get a vote on what you think is a disgrace to the uniform I wear as I type this now!

You think he's a disgrace, fine, I accept your opinion but I think you're wrong. Be grateful that you sleep peacefully (i hope) in your bed at night only because rough men (and women) stand ready to do violence on your behalf. Sometimes that violence is misguided. sh1t happens and he's paid his price.

Firthy · Post by **Firthy** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:48 pm

Isis don't play by rules, why the hell should we. Compared to the atrocities they inflict on innocent people this is nothing.

Should never have happened in the first place, I for one am delighted about this. No I don't see him as a hero, just a soldier fighting a ruthless enemy.

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:50 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:What would happen to the Taliban soldier once he got back to base and handed over to the local authorities? Death sentence? Let free? Life in prison?

After leaving hospital he would've been processed by the Afghan legal system. Depending on how big a fish he was, he probably be out by now. Bigger fish would be in prison still.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:51 pm

DCWat, I disagree. A lot of the servicemen you mention rarely, if ever, left the security of camp Bastion whereas soldier A and his men were left out to dry in a dangerously hostile area of operations. At times, it was too dangerous for ground vehicles to reach them because of IEDs and helicopters were too vulnerable to fly in. They were under attack virtually every day by an enemy that would have killed and mulitated them if they had overrun their fire base and they knew this because the enemy had, apparently, hung body parts of his colleagues in trees in order to provoke them. How would you have coped? Would you call a medivac helicopter in to evacuate the wounded Taliban thereby risking the men treating him under fire and the helicopter and crew that may have been needed to evacuate him? Would you have left him to die of his wounds? We don't know because we weren't there and therefore don't know the pressures and stress he was working under and we should all be very grateful for that. It was an appalling situation to be dumped in and the leadership that left them there to rot have already been censured for doing so. I, for one, hope that soldier A gets the opportunity to tell his side of the story and if he makes a bob or two doing so them good on him. i hope his life returns somewhere near back to normal.

Healeywoodclaret · Post by **Healeywoodclaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:52 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:the worst kind of soldier.

the guy is an out and out murderer.

Some strong views on here. Most admit to never having been faced with the situation Sgt Blackman found himself in.

His more junion soldiers who were with him that day have supported him throughout. They have stood up in court and said it could have been anyone of us.

As has been mentioned previously nobody knows what they would do in that situation. It has been hailed the tour from hell.

But as usual all the big mouths with big opinions of themselves, who have absolutely no clue as to what it might be like doing such a dangerous job are all posting today. I really do despair.

Well done to his wife, his family and his Royal Marines colleagues who have campaigned tirelessly to ensure common sense prevails.

He should now write his book so that those interested can have a balanced view of what these soldiers are faced with in war zones.

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:54 pm

BennyD wrote: A lot of the servicemen you mention rarely, if ever, left the security of camp Bastion

We call them REMF's in a friendly sort of way. Without the REMF, the teeth arms are useless!

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:13 pm

BennyD wrote:DCWat, I disagree. A lot of the servicemen you mention rarely, if ever, left the security of camp Bastion whereas soldier A and his men were left out to dry in a dangerously hostile area of operations. At times, it was too dangerous for ground vehicles to reach them because of IEDs and helicopters were too vulnerable to fly in. They were under attack virtually every day by an enemy that would have killed and mulitated them if they had overrun their fire base and they knew this because the enemy had, apparently, hung body parts of his colleagues in trees in order to provoke them. How would you have coped? Would you call a medivac helicopter in to evacuate the wounded Taliban thereby risking the men treating him under fire and the helicopter and crew that may have been needed to evacuate him? Would you have left him to die of his wounds? We don't know because we weren't there and therefore don't know the pressures and stress he was working under and we should all be very grateful for that. It was an appalling situation to be dumped in and the leadership that left them there to rot have already been censured for doing so. I, for one, hope that soldier A gets the opportunity to tell his side of the story and if he makes a bob or two doing so them good on him. i hope his life returns somewhere near back to normal.

Good post Benny and I'm in no way attempting to dismiss the situation that they or any other soldiers find themselves in. I have utmost respect for the job that they do on behalf of their country.

I can only base my views on what I've seen of the footage, read and seen on television.

I'd like to think that I'd have followed orders and adhered to rules. I certainly don't think I could or would have shot someone laying defenceless on the ground in front of me. Fully aware of the severity and consequences, why did he not seek orders on how to act.

I do appreciate of course that it's much easier to type this and assume what I would do in such a situation.

Healeywoodclaret · Post by **Healeywoodclaret** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:19 pm

Firthy wrote:Isis don't play by rules, why the hell should we. Compared to the atrocities they inflict on innocent people this is nothing.

Should never have happened in the first place, I for one am delighted about this. No I don't see him as a hero, just a soldier fighting a ruthless enemy.

The "executed" enemy had a grenade in his pocket ffs. As the soldiers said it's nothing he wouldn't have done to them. These animals do not play by the rules. There are no rules for them.

I'm delighted for Sgt Blackman and his family.
He will be damaged for the rest of his days because of what he has seen and because of what our Soldiers are asked to do and trained to deal with. I hope he can move on and has the continued support of his family friends and serving and former Royal Marines.