Royal Marine

[evensteadiereddie]

"Are people really this arsed about a dead taliban fighter? The more get slaughtered like the animals they are, the better. Kill or be killed, do people think those rats wouldn't do the same thing? In fact they would leave you alive as long as possible to make you suffer more."

All the more reason to rise above their horrific cowardice not sink to it.
So you're equating this marine' s behaviour to that of ISIS savages ? Fair enough. I think most would agree with you.

[Imploding Turtle]

Lying on the ground injured. He had a grenade in his pocket intent on murder himself. If course had he been successful and Sgt Blackman and his men had come back in body bags or minus limbs what would you say? Oh deary me?

Yes, because the thing to do when someone has a grenade in their pocket ready to explode is to drag them a little bit and then stand over them as you shoot them.

[vinrogue]

Not sure how many ex Bootnecks are on this thread? My own service career after training included 42 Commando RM followed by drafts to, 3 Cdo Bde HQ&Sigs, 45 Commando RM, 40 Commando RM and a couple of cushy drafts too!

The words spoken by Sergeant Al Blackman mean he was aware of the action he was taking. What those words don't portray is why he was taking those actions. The words you hear him speak on the news clips in isolation confirm his guilt of a crime but personally I am so pleased his sentence has been changed to reflect more accurately the nature of his crime. All I would ask is that people sitting in judgement based on one spoken sentence delve deeper into how and why it came to that point on the day in question for Sergeant Al Blackman RM. Understanding it doesn't change his guilt but I believe it does give you a more balanced view of how, what and why.

[vinrogue]

Yes, because the thing to do when someone has a grenade in their pocket ready to explode is to drag them a little bit and then stand over them as you shoot them.

All sounds simple, however, Apache helicopter guns down the enemy, you then have to ensure they are all dead and search them for intelligence. Do you do that in open ground or drag the enemy to a position where you are safer? Spending time in open ground after the Apache attack would have made no sense to any soldier. If you wish to believe it was for some other reason so be it, we can then agree to differ.

[Imploding Turtle]

All sounds simple, however, Apache helicopter guns down the enemy, you then have to ensure they are all dead and search them for intelligence. Do you do that in open ground or drag the enemy to a position where you are safer? Spending time in open ground after the Apache attack would have made no sense to any soldier. If you wish to believe it was for some other reason so be it, we can then agree to differ.

That post was tongue-in-cheek.

[BennyD]

How times have changed; on the 5th June 1915 at Krithia, Gallipoli, Second Lieutenant George Moor of the Hampshire regiment prevented a dangerous situation developing by stopping a nearby battalion retreating. He ran 200 yards across open ground, shot dead the first 4 British soldiers he saw, which stopped the retreat, he then regrouped them, led them forward and recaptured the trench they had left. He wasn't tried by courts martial, he was awarded the Victoria Cross. He was 18 years old and went on to be awarded the Military Cross and bar. Imagine what the bleeding heart liberals would have made of that these days.

[Sidney1st]

So he shot people deserting the battlefield?

That can still be enforced now can't it?

[quoonbeatz]

How times have changed; on the 5th June 1915 at Krithia, Gallipoli, Second Lieutenant George Moor of the Hampshire regiment prevented a dangerous situation developing by stopping a nearby battalion retreating. He ran 200 yards across open ground, shot dead the first 4 British soldiers he saw, which stopped the retreat, he then regrouped them, led them forward and recaptured the trench they had left. He wasn't tried by courts martial, he was awarded the Victoria Cross. He was 18 years old and went on to be awarded the Military Cross and bar. Imagine what the bleeding heart liberals would have made of that these days.

interesting one, especially given a quick 5 mins research shows that there's no actual evidence that he shot or killed anybody.

even if he did, it was 1915 and they men he allegedly shot were deserters - not exactly out of the ordinary at the time.

its not remotely comparable.

[Holmeclaret]

How times have changed; on the 5th June 1915 at Krithia, Gallipoli, Second Lieutenant George Moor of the Hampshire regiment prevented a dangerous situation developing by stopping a nearby battalion retreating. He ran 200 yards across open ground, shot dead the first 4 British soldiers he saw, which stopped the retreat, he then regrouped them, led them forward and recaptured the trench they had left. He wasn't tried by courts martial, he was awarded the Victoria Cross. He was 18 years old and went on to be awarded the Military Cross and bar. Imagine what the bleeding heart liberals would have made of that these days.

So I assume you'd be against postumous pardons for those shot by firing squad for desertion in the Great War.
I thought we might have progressed from the kind of military justice that was meted out 102 years ago by a little bit at least.
Given the fact that the Gallipoli campaign was a complete disaster from start to finish shouldn't senior staff have taken some responsibility for what happened at the front line?
If that's bleeding hearted liberalism then I'm proud to be one.

[BennyD]

interesting one, especially given a quick 5 mins research shows that there's no actual evidence that he shot or killed anybody.

even if he did, it was 1915 and they men he allegedly shot were deserters - not exactly out of the ordinary at the time.

its not remotely comparable.

Of course it is. Both Lt Moor and soldier A assessed the situation they were in and both came to the same conclusion, that the best course of action was to shoot someone who wasn't threatening their life. Also, it's harder to prove such killings from 100 years ago because there wasn't any 'helmet cams' but anecdotal evidence passed down in contemporary reports and books indicate it happened.

[BennyD]

So I assume you'd be against postumous pardons for those shot by firing squad for desertion in the Great War.
I thought we might have progressed from the kind of military justice that was meted out 102 years ago by a little bit at least.
Given the fact that the Gallipoli campaign was a complete disaster from start to finish shouldn't senior staff have taken some responsibility for what happened at the front line?
If that's bleeding hearted liberalism then I'm proud to be one.

I'm not in favour of blanket pardons as some executions were justified. However, PTSD wasn't recognised at the time and some, IMO, were unfairly convicted. However, they were all executed to make them an example in order to stop mass desertions from the front line; a tactic that was crude but, generally, very effective.

We have moved on, because no military 'justice' was handed out to Lt Moor.

Ah, so are you are saying that senior staff should have taken responsibility for what happened at the front line instead of Soldier A? It sounds like it.

Good for you. Bleeding heart liberals; they are never seen in combat as they only appear in the aftermath in order to criticise those doing the fighting, when there is no danger to themselves.

[evensteadiereddie]

So what, exactly, is your point, Benny ?
Your last two sentences spoil an otherwise reasonably interesting post. Idiotic, lazy labelling of anyone not particularly jingoistic or a Little Englander.

[bootleg]

Cold blooded murderer, caught on camera. Disgrace to his country.

You were there then dickhead ? and obviously know all the relevant circumstances, what a complete armchair MORON you must be.

[Sidney1st]

You were there then dickhead ? and obviously know all the relevant circumstances, what a complete armchair MORON you must be.

Point out where his statement is wrong then....

Was it the mention of the Geneva convention which he knew he'd violated?
Was it the part where he asked the lads to keep it quiet?
Or was it the part where he shot a wounded man?

[lakesclaret]

This was fantastic news for AB, he was guilty of nothing more than stupidity ( for keeping the vid as a souvenir just damn crazy) Superb service hes given for Q and C and for the record his mates didn't grass him up ( under oath they stated the base facts in the head cam vid) Great campaign by the mail and FF , justice has been done .OAM

[Rileybobs]

This was fantastic news for AB, he was guilty of nothing more than stupidity ( for keeping the vid as a souvenir just damn crazy)

Clearly not true.

[lakesclaret]

While being technically correct Riley ( he broke the GC clearly) sadly the enemy don't abide by such conventions .In a theatre of war he killed the enemy who would have probs died anyway. If AB had been caught he'd have been captured tortured and beheaded in glorious digital detail .

[Rileybobs]

While being technically correct Riley ( he broke the GC clearly) sadly the enemy don't abide by such conventions .In a theatre of war he killed the enemy who would have probs died anyway. If AB had been caught he'd have been captured tortured and beheaded in glorious digital detail .

What's that got to do with anything?

[evensteadiereddie]

Excellent drama-queenery, lakes, but complete ******** again, I'm afraid.

[Spijed]

While being technically correct Riley ( he broke the GC clearly) sadly the enemy don't abide by such conventions .In a theatre of war he killed the enemy who would have probs died anyway. If AB had been caught he'd have been captured tortured and beheaded in glorious digital detail .

So what you are saying is that no-one should ever be tried for war crimes?

[lakesclaret]

Of course war crimes hould be investigated. Though it's a case of the relativatly and the context of the incident. Lets not forget that AB has already nearly served 3.5 yrs so will in fact have served his original 7 yr sentence. He committed a crime(bang to rights) and was hardly treated leniently by the courts.

The way people talk of this you'd think he'd been wenching in the bahamas for 3 yrs as a reward.

As for the ever addled "unsteadyeddie" With the greatest of respect, for someone whose been outed as an out and out coward (by KBRFC no less ) I'd hazard your quivering bottom lip is rather more aquainted with drama quuen antics than most old fruit.

[Healeywoodclaret]

For those of you that think this was murder, I assume you have studied this in great depth
and have full knowledge of the situation these men had been in for the previous hours, days and weeks?
The Marines tour mission was to deliberately draw out the Taliban. They had been suffering heavy losses.
On this particular operation they had been under intense fire for hours so they had called in a helicopter strike.
The helicopter strike left some of the Taliban dead, some survived and this one was very badly injured.
They couldn't be sure of exact numbers of each. Two of Marine A's younger soldiers were brandishing
their side arms intent on killing him. So what do you do now? How do you get this badly injured
man out? This man who has just been trying to kill you.
How do you Med-Evac him, when there are still active Taliban in the area?
You cannot secure the area, you are under fire, so you cannot bring a helicopter in.
Are you going to order 2,3 or 4 of your men to go and carry him out to a secure area that could be miles away?
Are you going to do that and ask them to risk their lives? Or are you going to leave him to die?
Personally, I really don't think this is as black and white as is being made out by some of you.
I really would appreciate it if those who think this was murder would tell me what Marine A should have done,
and what they think has happened in all other wars.

And along comes a poster who has a grasp on what these guys were dealing with. Excellent post 2 bee.

[Colburn_Claret]

I try not to judge people if I haven't walked in their shoes.
It seems obvious that he did wrong, for that there should be a punishment, but in that walk of life, in that environ, it would be wrong to chuck the book and then walk away.
I don't believe in violence, although I accept it's sometimes a necessary evil, but I do believe that in any fight, any battle or any war, the rules are set by the opposition. If they want to comply with the Geneva Convention, then I'd be more than happy too. However if they don't then they'd get no quarter from me. This idea that war is fought by the rules of cricket or Hoyle is for losers. You treat animals like animals, not out of a sense of vengeance, but because it's the only thing they understand.

[IanMcL]

I am pleased for the soldier concerned and there are probably many mitigating circumstances. However, the soundtrack clearly demonstrates the shooting was committed at a time when the soldier was fully aware that what he was doing was in contravention of the Geneva Convention. He didn't just shoot the Taliban and then show remorse. He stated that he had broken the rules of the GC and that it should 'stay between us lads'.

Murder on the face of it and not 'diminished responsibility' at the time, just lack of responsibility. Subsequently, he may well be diagnosed with PTSD but that shooting was cold blooded.

[Healeywoodclaret]

it doesn't matter what i or anyone else would do in that situation, all that matters is what blackman did.

there's no doubt he'd experienced a lot of stress and seen things i hope most people never see; i've every sympathy for him on that. i've got family and friends in the forces who have done tours since the first gulf war, including in afghanistan. and i've no doubt that most of the people serving in our forces do a brilliant job, sometimes under horrendous, brutal conditions.

the thing is that they manage to do that job without killing people in cold blood and trying to cover it up. we're not talking about someone making a split-second, life or death decision here. we're talking about someone who had a discussion with his colleagues about shooting the guy in the chest because the head would be too 'obvious'; made sure they couldn't be seen from the air before carrying out the killing and admitting to breaking the geneva convention.

i'm sure his mental health had suffered a lot but the transcripts, footage and audio do not paint a picture of a man who didn't know exactly what he was doing. there was a thread on here last week where people were saying that mental illness was no excuse for spitting in a baby's face. it shouldn't be for murder either.

you can say the other side don't play by the rules but we do and we should. we have standards, which is why so many people have such respect for our armed forces. blackman has badly tarnished that.

The racist incident of spitting in the baby's face can't be compared to this. Ridiculous to suggest it. The racist who spat in the babys face was not underby extreme pressure as Sgt Blackman was. The racust wasnt in a life or death situation. Blackman was also responsible for his younger troops, adding to the pressure. The racist had done this 3 times.

The only comparison we can make is that the defence in both cases has been mental illness.

Blackman should possibly have left the enemy to die on the grounds that to move the enemy to safety when they were under fire his younger troops would have been putting their lives in danger. Blackman made a decision which would be considered by most as poor judgement.

Let's go back to your racist. Totally unprovoked spits in a baby's face. He's not under any pressure to spit in the baby's face. He isn't being forced into making a decision about whether he should or not. He's got form he has done this kind of thing before.

How can we not say mental illness is not merely a cover up for his racist actions. It would be interesting to know whether he is now seeking help for his "mental health issues ".

Ridiculous comparison.

[Wexford_Claret]

How was Blackman in a life or death situation? If he left the terrorist, the terrorist would die. If he shot the terrorist, the terrorist would die.

[DCWat]

How do we know the 'victim' would have died, had he been left?

[Healeywoodclaret]

Not sure how many ex Bootnecks are on this thread? My own service career after training included 42 Commando RM followed by drafts to, 3 Cdo Bde HQ&Sigs, 45 Commando RM, 40 Commando RM and a couple of cushy drafts too!

The words spoken by Sergeant Al Blackman mean he was aware of the action he was taking. What those words don't portray is why he was taking those actions. The words you hear him speak on the news clips in isolation confirm his guilt of a crime but personally I am so pleased his sentence has been changed to reflect more accurately the nature of his crime. All I would ask is that people sitting in judgement based on one spoken sentence delve deeper into how and why it came to that point on the day in question for Sergeant Al Blackman RM. Understanding it doesn't change his guilt but I believe it does give you a more balanced view of how, what and why.

I don't think there will be many ex bootnecks on here Vin. Judging by the imbeciles posting their usual holier than thou drivel. I'm delighted his sentence has been reduced. I hope one day he gets an opportunity to tell his side of the story not just about this incident but about the tour from hell leading up to that day.

[DCWat]

Hearing his story, we are only likely to hear a version of events that corroborates what got him off the more serious charge, so really that would be meaningless.

There is no disputing the fact that what he and his fellow comrades went through would have been bloody awful.

[Healeywoodclaret]

How was Blackman in a life or death situation? If he left the terrorist, the terrorist would die. If he shot the terrorist, the terrorist would die.

me

The soldiers were under fire. If they attempted to move the terrorist to safety they were effectively in a life or death situation. In fact when the enemy is all around you and you are in the middle you are in a life or death situation. Your armchair comfy is it? Keep up please.

[Sidney1st]

Didn't look under immediate fire at the time of the murder.

Lots of standing around chatting by the looks of it.
Enough time to talk about what to do and to not tell anyone else.

[conyoviejo]

Shchite happens ,he's done his time and will soon be released..He will have to live with what he did for the rest of his natural life,only he knows what was going on in his head at the time he decided to end the wounded Talibans life..Like people have said "war makes normal people do strange things" you only have to look at the concentration camps in WW2 to see that ..I hope he can come to terns with what he did ..

[Wexford_Claret]

me

The soldiers were under fire. If they attempted to move the terrorist to safety they were effectively in a life or death situation. In fact when the enemy is all around you and you are in the middle you are in a life or death situation. Your armchair comfy is it? Keep up please.

I was simply stating, having heard the audio footage, that he didn't seem to be in a life or death situation. As Sidney stated, they didn't seem to be under fire- but maybe you've read more on the case than me.

I am perfectly aware of, and have the upmost respect for, what the members of Marines go through. I'm sorry for making a statement you disagreed with, but maybe next time remember that you know nothing about me other than the fact I'm a Burnley fan (just like you). There is really no need to reply with 'your armchair comfy is it?' to someone who have never, and probably will never meet.

I'll steer clear of making statements in future.

[conyoviejo]

I was simply stating, having heard the audio footage, that he didn't seem to be in a life or death situation. As Sidney stated, they didn't seem to be under fire- but maybe you've read more on the case than me.

I am perfectly aware of, and have the upmost respect for, what the members of Marines go through. I'm sorry for making a statement you disagreed with, but maybe next time remember that you know nothing about me other than the fact I'm a Burnley fan (just like you). There is really no need to reply with 'your armchair comfy is it?' to someone who have never, and probably will never meet.

I'll steer clear of making statements in future.

I wouldn't worry too much Wexford,this sites full of people waiting to jump down your throat and pull you to pieces..just take it with a pinch of Salt..

[Stayingup]

It makes you wonder what's the point of the Geneva convention if it gets ignored.

Absolutely. The Taliban observe it meticulously. Like ISIS do oh and Al Quaeda.

[Sidney1st]

Absolutely. The Taliban observe it meticulously. Like ISIS do oh and Al Quaeda.

The fact the majority of our armed forces follow it means we're better then the aforementioned groups of bell wipes.

[Dejavu]

Absolutely. The Taliban observe it meticulously. Like ISIS do oh and Al Quaeda.

No they don't. That's why (supposedly) we are there trying to kick them out. That's why we can't and mustn't stoop to their level.
What the soldier did was wrong and he knew it. However he has served long enough in jail and should be freed

[quoonbeatz]

The only comparison we can make is that the defence in both cases has been mental illness.

yes and it was the only comparison i made.

it was just funny to see the same kind of people who were saying mental illness is no defence for spitting on a baby were saying it was a sound defence for murder.

funny how you chose to focus on that one throwaway line than debate the reasoned argument i put forward in the rest of my post

still, having read the rest of your guff on this thread its clear you've got literally no grasp on what went on (weird, as its been widely reported) so i'll leave you to it.

[KRBFC]

"Are people really this arsed about a dead taliban fighter? The more get slaughtered like the animals they are, the better. Kill or be killed, do people think those rats wouldn't do the same thing? In fact they would leave you alive as long as possible to make you suffer more."

All the more reason to rise above their horrific cowardice not sink to it.
So you're equating this marine' s behaviour to that of ISIS savages ? Fair enough. I think most would agree with you.

What's the alternative? Stick them in prison with 3 meals a day and a games console for a couple of years?

[Healeywoodclaret]

yes and it was the only comparison i made.

it was just funny to see the same kind of people who were saying mental illness is no defence for spitting on a baby were saying it was a sound defence for murder.

funny how you chose to focus on that one throwaway line than debate the reasoned argument i put forward in the rest of my post

still, having read the rest of your guff on this thread its clear you've got literally no grasp on what went on (weird, as its been widely reported) so i'll leave you to it.

And it's clear from your drivel that you have no grasp on military personnel serving in war zones. Another armchair politician.

[DCWat]

And it's clear from your drivel that you have no grasp on military personnel serving in war zones. Another armchair politician.

Using that logic, this board may as well pack up now. To my knowledge there are no current or former politicians or footballers on here. We should therefore not be debating such topics from the comfort of our armchairs.

Put points across by all means but the typical "you're not in a position to judge or have an opinion" is frankly, ********.

Whilst you may well have military experience and experience in these type of war zones, I'm assuming you've no more insight in to this particular situation than the rest of us.

I fully appreciate this was a stressful situation and I've no doubt that you've been in some yourself. Would you have just shot a wounded person there and then?

[Sidney1st]

What's the alternative? Stick them in prison with 3 meals a day and a games console for a couple of years?

Yeah, because Turtle has already told us we cant have our own Guantanamo bay.

[Quickenthetempo]

Has anybody else been tried for a war crime that involved only one person being killed before?

[Healeywoodclaret]

Using that logic, this board may as well pack up now. To my knowledge there are no current or former politicians or footballers on here. We should therefore not be debating such topics from the comfort of our armchairs.

Put points across by all means but the typical "you're not in a position to judge or have an opinion" is frankly, ********.

Whilst you may well have military experience and experience in these type of war zones, I'm assuming you've no more insight in to this particular situation than the rest of us.

I fully appreciate this was a stressful situation and I've no doubt that you've been in some yourself. Would you have just shot a wounded person there and then?

I think im pretty much done wirh this post but for what it's worth I agree with most that it was poor judgement to shoot the injured terrorist but given that to move the wounded terrorist would have put the junior soldiers llves in danger I would have left him to die. Let him suffer before death. You can understand why some would think it would be more humane to shoot him but Blackman didn't get any thanks for that.

I reiterate that I wish Sgt Blackman well in the future. As previously stated he will be damaged by that tour in more ways than one. He deserves to tell his story about the tour, about the shooting of the terrorist and about how he feels he was treated by the system following that incident.

[Sidney1st]

So you want a someone convicted of manslaughter to sell his story?

He'd be better off keeping his head down, but no doubt he will be on This Morning with those other idiots at some point bleating about how he was treated.

[watsonsclarets]

A few things spring to mind on this case.

The public do have a opinion and they pay the wages and rightly so.

On the other hand nobody only the guys on the ground will know the true extent to things and nobody knows the mind-set of Marine A.

Without getting into a right cock-fight about things I found the Marines outside court distasteful in truth.

Fair play his wife and good luck to them.

I know both Afghanistan and Iraq well I don't need to go into details but things happen things beyond those who have not served in the regions, however a crime was committed and he paid the price and I do wonder how many people have been hurt because of his actions beyond and moving forward from his actions.

For me it about the repercussions it sent out and the damage it caused not just the Armed Forces but gave propaganda and groups/individuals a cause which may not have had one.

He has paid for his crime we move on and rightly so

[Wexford_Claret]

And it's clear from your drivel that you have no grasp on military personnel serving in war zones. Another armchair politician.

Another face behind a computer screen.

[evensteadiereddie]

That crap is pretty typical of Healey's to be fair.

[hampsteadclaret]

You got away lightly Wexford...she called me a 'delusional tw@tt' last week.

I don't think she has done much active service herself, she is getting it all second hand and third hand, much like the rest of us.

She will correct me if I'm wrong, to be sure.

[Sidney1st]

Healeywood is female??

I'm expecting some battle hardened super soldier....or an Sas type.

I'm feeling short changed