It makes sense to me to provide a little clarity on some of the issues that would arise if indyref2 had a majority for independence. Surely, we can all agree a little more pre-referendum clarity is good for all our democracies.Imploding Turtle wrote:What, you want her to campaign for a Yes vote before there's even been a referendum arranged?
Or no NHS, no free uni places, no free care for the elderly etc.Paul Waine wrote:It makes sense to me to provide a little clarity on some of the issues that would arise if indyref2 had a majority for independence. Surely, we can all agree a little more pre-referendum clarity is good for all our democracies.
Imagine the fuss if SNP won and then had to tell the people of Scotland that they had to have a new currency....
Of course I am. But i don't think the rest of the UK should get to dictate to a country a course of action that it has quite explicitely expressed that it does not want to take. Scotland doesn't want Brexit. Scotland also wanted the right to review their decision on independence should the UK vote to leave the EU against its will. I think waiting till Brexit is negotiated before deciding whether Scotland remains in the UK makes absolutely no sense, nor do i think Scotland owes it to the UK to delay their decision. And the anti-Scottish hatred and vitriol i'm reading in this thread from ordinarily sane posters is doing absolutely nothing to make me think that Scotland being a part of the UK is in either country's best interests.Paul Waine wrote:Hi IT, how is that the electorate in Scotland get to vote for a prime minister when the rest of the UK only get to vote for an MP in our own constituency?
I get the fact that you are born in England and live in England. Aren't you a little concerned that Scottish independence will impact on all the UK?
Where'd i say that? Where in this thread has there been hatred directed at the English?Sidney1st wrote:So what you're saying is Scottish dislike of the English is fine, but we can't hand it back?
Hi IT, I apologise if anything I've written suggests that I've any feelings other than warmth and friendship for everyone in Scotland - and everyone who doesn't live in Scotland. (I've expressed before on here my support and friendship for all Europeans and all people across the world).Imploding Turtle wrote:Of course I am. But i don't think the rest of the UK should get to dictate to a country a course of action that it has quite explicitely expressed that it does not want to take. Scotland doesn't want Brexit. Scotland also wanted the right to review their decision on independence should the UK vote to leave the EU against its will. I think waiting till Brexit is negotiated before deciding whether Scotland remains in the UK makes absolutely no sense, nor do i think Scotland owes it to the UK to delay their decision. And the anti-Scottish hatred and vitriol i'm reading in this thread from ordinarily sane posters is doing absolutely nothing to make me think that Scotland being a part of the UK is in either country's best interests.
Doesn't have to be on here does it, or even this particular thread?Imploding Turtle wrote:Where'd i say that? Where in this thread has there been hatred directed at the English?
Brexit isn't a fixed point. It might be in 2 years, of 4 years, or 6 years, or 8 years... etc.dsr wrote:The reason why it's sense to wait until the terms of exit are decided is so that they can make a decision based on those terms. Obviously it's possible, theoretically, to have a referendum every year because the position is different every year that goes by, but that's not going to happen. So a more or less fixed point at which the new conditions are more or less known, is a good time to revisit the decision that has previously been made.
Sidney1st wrote:Doesn't have to be on here does it, or even this particular thread?
We know there are Scots that don't like us and would happily watch the England 'burn' so to speak, we've always known that, same with the Taffs.
From the way some of the Scots are whining on this forum it's clear they don't really like us that much anymore, I suspect you're of a similar mind to them sometimes.
I'd happily let Scotland wander off into the world to make their own way, it's their right to do so IF they so wish.
I'd let Wales and N.Ireland go too if they wanted to do the same.
Then i suspect you're an idiot. When have i ever expressed hatred for any group of people, let alone a nationality.Nah I'm not an idiot, I just voiced an opinion based on the strop you've been having about the request from Westminster to wait.Imploding Turtle wrote:I suppose it doesn't but since i was talking specifically about the anti-Scottish hatred and vitriol in this thread i think it makes little sense to then points to 5 million Scots and say see, some of them hate the English too
"i suspect you're of a similar mind to them sometimes"
Imploding Turtle wrote:What, you want her to campaign for a Yes vote before there's even been a referendum arranged?
Is probably the first blatant example of "Scottish Hating" on this thread and even that doesn't actually say "**** off because I hate you".BennyD wrote:I hope they get a referendum and vote out or we will be having one every time they get a new leader. If it helps I'll start; LEAVE YER BARSTARDS.
Do you want Theresa May to be campaigning for No votes right now? Or would you rather she do her job as Prime Minister? If it's the latter then what, you don't want her to be open and honest beforehand?claretdom wrote:What you don't want her to be open and honest beforehand ?
I want her to do her job as PM and lead us out of Europe.Imploding Turtle wrote:Do you want Theresa May to be campaigning for No votes right now? Or would you rather she do her job as Prime Minister? If it's the latter then what, you don't want her to be open and honest beforehand?
Chobulous wrote:Is probably the first blatant example of "Scottish Hating" on this thread and even that doesn't actually say "**** off because I hate you".
Most contributions as far as I can see are along the lines of:
"Scots get more per capita out of taxation than the rest of the UK" - which is true
"Scots would never make it on their own" - matter of opinion
"Make your minds up and stick to it" - Good advice to some
"Let them go if they want to and the rest of us will be better off" - With a deficit of circa 9% not difficult to disagree with but short sighted
"The EU wouldn't want them" - Again not difficult to argue with if you listen to what was said by EU officials
"The haven't got a plan going forward" - if they have they are keeping it close to their chest.
All of these are on balance negative comments about the Scots so therefore using the racist argument is easy but lazy.
And if she didn't trigger Brexit you'd consider that a broken promise and would hold it against her. Wouldn't you?Sidney1st wrote:I want her to do her job as PM and lead us out of Europe.
Not really, personally I don't expect much out of politicians, I think they're all generally turds, there are just varying levels of turdiness.Imploding Turtle wrote:And if she didn't trigger Brexit you'd consider that a broken promise and would hold it against her. Wouldn't you?
Imploding Turtle wrote:Do you want Theresa May to be campaigning for No votes right now? Or would you rather she do her job as Prime Minister? If it's the latter then what, you don't want her to be open and honest beforehand?
Starts with #39 then #43 then followed by a number of contributions discussing #39 and the prevalence of anti-Scottish feeling on the thread.Imploding Turtle wrote:I guess the title doesn't count?
And who brought racism into it? I don't think anyone mentioned racism. If someone did then i stand corrected.
She's bound to continue because she's fighting for what she believes in whether you agree with her or not. It's all getting a bit boring though - on here included - even though everything is early days.Sidney1st wrote:She's off again..
Chobulous wrote:Starts with #39 then #43 then followed by a number of contributions discussing #39 and the prevalence of anti-Scottish feeling on the thread.
Anti-Scottish ie specifically aimed to be detrimental to the Scots.
Throughout this thread the inference has been made that this anti-Scottish feeling is based on bigotry and ignorance and is therefore
(a) racist and in some instances (b) linked to being a Brexiteer
As I said - lazy.
Darthlaw wrote:Sturgeon needs the Indy ref date to be set before he terms of Brexit are finalised because its the best chance the SNP have for winning.
Once the terms are agreed, the Unionists will have a definite 'This is what Scotland will look like if they choose to stay in the Union'. The SNP can only argue about what they hope to happen if they leave the Union i.e. Oil recovers, they will be allowed to use the pound, The EU will fast track them, etc.
What is easier for Nicola Sturgeon to argue? Uncertainty of Independence vs Uncertainty of The Union or Uncertainty of Independence vs Clear matter of fact remaining in the Union.
By setting a date prior to the terms of Brexit being agreed, it will also allow the SNP to begin rhetoric around 'hard brexit' and what poor position Scotland could be in. Once the terms are agreed the SNP are knacked as they will only have their own ideals vs fact.
Scotland should absolutely be allowed a referendum on independence, however for the SNP to deny their people the right of an informed decision of what is on the table for staying in the Union just shows how badly their motives are idealistic and not in the interests of the people of Scotland.
SNP - Independence at all costs.
If they have a referendum now, they can have another one after March 2019 when they claim that the end result of Brexit isn't what they expected.Darthlaw wrote:I'd go with most of that. I'd disagree that the SNP would push for a softer brexit with a March 19' Indyref though. The SNP want an independent Scotland as their ultimate aim. I'd argue that all Sturgeon would concentrate on, once a date was fixed and assuming it was before the conclusion of negotiations, would be the worst case scenario for Scotland in the Union vs the best case scenario for an independent Scotland.
Either way, Scotland are leaving the EU unless there is a radical u turn decision to cancel Brexit. Why would it not be better for the Scottish people to see the final offer on the table from the Union, once it is negotiated, rather than base their vote on assumptions and rhetoric from both sides of the argument?
Once the date is agreed, the SNP can go all out on their independence campaign. I think its fair to give the Union the same opportunity, hence the indyref should be organised and announced after March 19.
Darthlaw wrote:I'd go with most of that. I'd disagree that the SNP would push for a softer brexit with a March 19' Indyref though. The SNP want an independent Scotland as their ultimate aim. I'd argue that all Sturgeon would concentrate on, once a date was fixed and assuming it was before the conclusion of negotiations, would be the worst case scenario for Scotland in the Union vs the best case scenario for an independent Scotland.
Either way, Scotland are leaving the EU unless there is a radical u turn decision to cancel Brexit. Why would it not be better for the Scottish people to see the final offer on the table from the Union, once it is negotiated, rather than base their vote on assumptions and rhetoric from both sides of the argument?
Once the date is agreed, the SNP can go all out on their independence campaign. I think its fair to give the Union the same opportunity, hence the indyref should be organised and announced after March 19.
dsr wrote:If they have a referendum now, they can have another one after March 2019 when they claim that the end result of Brexit isn't what they expected.
By the rolling eyes, does that mean you think that if an immediate referendum voted to stay, the SNP would accept it as a once-in-a-lifetime decision and not push for another one post-Brexit?Imploding Turtle wrote:
They'd just dust of the manifest / election pledge from last time and use it again let's be honest.dsr wrote:By the rolling eyes, does that mean you think that if an immediate referendum voted to stay, the SNP would accept it as a once-in-a-lifetime decision and not push for another one post-Brexit?