Defour

[claretspice]

Better players? what else do we need to pass a football? we have 2 England Internationals, a Belgian international and 5 (presuming I didn't miss anyone) players from the Euros. We have more than enough quality at our disposal to pass a football. We haven't won an away game all season, 442 isn't working yet we're still playing it, 9 months later. Predictable and one dimensional.

Lets get one thing clear. If teams should finish in the league im the order of the number of serious internationals they have, we'd be absolutely nailed on to finish 20th in the league. Boro, Hull, Sunderland and Swansea all have many more top tier internationals than us.

[Sidney1st]

Better players? what else do we need to pass a football? we have 2 England Internationals, a Belgian international and 5 (presuming I didn't miss anyone) players from the Euros. We have more than enough quality at our disposal to pass a football. We haven't won an away game all season, 442 isn't working yet we're still playing it, 9 months later. Predictable and one dimensional.

Let's have a little look shall we.

The Belgian clearly has injury/fitness issues.
The Icelandic winger has been injured a lot.
Vokes - did well for us in the first half the season and is now not the preferred choice in a 4-4-2.
Keane & Heaton aren't there to play passing football.
Ward does well at left back, so well in fact that he's the first LB in a while that no one complains about and that's some achievment.
Brady - keeps getting played on the wrong flank.
Hendrick - showing flashes of quality, but I'd expect a better showing next season considering the changes to midfield this season.

Have I missed anyone?
If our 4-4-2 was so predictable why have we done so well at home?
I'll agree our away form is gash and we need to change things in that respect.

[CnBtruntru]

Defour, Defour, Defour,
Oh four where art thou Defour,
On the floor,
Feeling De-Sore.

Bum Bum.

[boatshed bill]

Not really, i think it leads to the logical conclusion Dyche wanted the technical ability that Defour and wanted him to be an unqualified success, but simply believes Defour hasnt sufficiently adapted to English football for the benefits he hope to gain from Defour to outweigh the shortcomings that have been exposed by English football.

As for pressing - we still do this, but our best pressing has always been done by Marney and Ings. Barton tried to press high for the first United goal on Sunday - he ended up overcommitted and United exploited it. Similarly Chelsea scored at Burnley by similarly exploiting an enthusiastic press. I suspect the problem those goals highlight, plus the change of personnel (particularly Gray) explain why our pressing is more circumspect now than 2 /3 years ago.

I thought you said recently that the reason Defour was left out was to accomodate Gray in a forward pairing?

[claretspice]

I thought you said recently that the reason Defour was left out was to accomodate Gray in a forward pairing?

I did, and do, the point being Defour's shortcomings make him a defensive risk in a midfield 2, certainly if Marney is not available, and in my view we can only really get Gray in the team in a front 2. Dyche no doubt hoped he'd come better physically and adapt to the defensive job of combating the athleticism of Premier League midfielders, but certainly this season that hasnt come to pass.

[boatshed bill]

I did, and do, the point being Defour's shortcomings make him a defensive risk in a midfield 2, certainly if Marney is not available, and in my view we can only really get Gray in the team in a front 2. Dyche no doubt hoped he'd come better physically and adapt to the defensive job of combating the athleticism of Premier League midfielders, but certainly this season that hasnt come to pass.

OK, but you don't improve your defence by bringing in a forward.

[claretspice]

OK, but you don't improve your defence by bringing in a forward.

I'm not saying you do!

[KRBFC]

I'm not saying you do!

If you read your posts, you kinda did.

[Right_winger]

It's quite amusing people tie themselves up in knots trying to show their point is valid.

[Vegas Claret]

[claretspice]

If you read your posts, you kinda did.

You seem to struggle with logic, so i'll let you off, but i definitely didn't. I said that to get our best striker into the team we needed to play a 442, and that Defour struggles to cope with the defensive/physical demands of a 442.

Its a pretty straightforward argument to grasp, and ive made it fairly consistently. Perhaps now you'll get it.

[claretdom]

Its a pretty straightforward argument to grasp, and ive made it fairly consistently. Perhaps now you'll get it.

That depends on the person at the other end, in this case you are probably better off standing in front of an industrial fan and having a pi$$

[Murger]

We arnt scoring enough and we arnt creating enough. The answer is pretty simple. Get your best and most creative player in the team.

[boatshed bill]

You seem to struggle with logic, so i'll let you off, but i definitely didn't. I said that to get our best striker into the team we needed to play a 442, and that Defour struggles to cope with the defensive/physical demands of a 442.

Its a pretty straightforward argument to grasp, and ive made it fairly consistently. Perhaps now you'll get it.

I'm sure he gets it, Spice.
in my honest opinion we don't have good enough strikers to warrant getting over-run in midfield whilst using two of them, And also just my opinion, SD is too rigid in his thinking on this. There is every arguement for a five man midfield in certain fixtures.

[claretspice]

I'm sure he gets it, Spice.
in my honest opinion we don't have good enough strikers to warrant getting over-run in midfield whilst using two of them, And also just my opinion, SD is too rigid in his thinking on this. There is every arguement for a five man midfield in certain fixtures.

Yes, i can see that. I can see an argument for Vokes in particular as a lone striker, or for Barnes on the left as a physical outlet, in a 451. I've never said that we should always play 442 with Gray.

[boatshed bill]

Yes, i can see that. I can see an argument for Vokes in particular as a lone striker, or for Barnes on the left as a physical outlet, in a 451. I've never said that we should always play 442 with Gray.

At the end of the day (as they say), Spice, our team in its most common shape struggles to deliver two of the games most potent and enjoyable ingredients: pace and flair.( No-one can say that Defour doesn't make some contribution to these).
Now this will be all well and good if the outcome is PL survival, but should we fail to pick up another point we will look a bit pathetic for not having given it a go.

[claretspice]

I think that's true to some extent, although Gray is the pace in our team (at least physically, if not in terms of moving the ball). We produced some fairly thrilling moments in the Leicester win, for example. And currently, we're well on course to survive, provided the players have a stronger constitution than some of our more doubtful supporters. But certainly, provided we stay up, adding a touch more dash will be on the agenda for next season. It's unfortunate that JBG has also has missed much of the season with injury but he and Brady offer a promised of this for the future.

[Vegas Claret]

The fact that a guy who is good enough to play alongside the likes of Eden Hazard on the world stage cannot get into this Burnley team is quite frankly ridiculous. It's down to the manager to figure out a system that works for your best player, he seems unable to and that's his failure. I'm not having a pop at the gaffer btw, but unless Defours attitude in training is in question I don't see any other reason for Defour not to play.

[THEWELLERNUT70]

http://www.90min.com/posts/4920998-belg ... t-the-club" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

The original report is about a paragraph long and very short on any details.

I'm sure he's not happy being on the bench though

[Giftonsnoidea]

In the latest BBC interview Dyche says in not so many words that because Defour doesn't run around like a headless chicken chasing after opposition players he won't get in the side.

The journalist asks him why he doesn't get in the team to which he replies "any player has to fit into the team".

So expect O'Neil to get some minutes in our remaining games or Defour out of position on the left wing or some other equally bizarre placing.

You might even see him selling pies and brews in the James Hargreaves the way its going.

£8m quid rotting on the bench, Jesus!

[claretspice]

In the latest BBC interview Dyche says in not so many words that because Defour doesn't run around like a headless chicken chasing after opposition players he won't get in the side.

The journalist asks him why he doesn't get in the team to which he replies "any player has to fit the framework" whatever that means.

So expect O'Neil to get some minutes in our remaining games or Defour out of position on the left wing or some other equally bizarre placing.

You might even see him selling pies and brews in the James Hargreaves the way its going.

£8m quid rotting on the bench, Jesus!

Thats not what Dyche said though, is it?

[Giftonsnoidea]

Thats not what Dyche said though, is it?

Pretty sure thats the gist of it have a watch

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... sean-dyche" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[claretspice]

Nope, no its not what he said at all. If you're going to criticise what the manager says, at least accurately reflect what he says. You sound like a chap grinding an axe otherwise.

[Giftonsnoidea]

Nope, no its not what he said at all. If you're going to criticise what the manager says, at least accurately reflect what he says. You sound like a chap grinding an axe otherwise.

I have slightly edited the wording for you but the meaning remains the same.

No axe to grind just want to see the team stop up ffs lol

[Lancasterclaret]

I was always under the impression that Sean Dyche was pretty straightforward in what he says.

Its amazing what you can read into what he's actually saying if you really, really, really want to.

[Giftonsnoidea]

I was always under the impression that Sean Dyche was pretty straightforward in what he says.

Its amazing what you can read into what he's actually saying if you really, really, really want to.

Hes saying Defour doesn't fit in the team on the video in the link I posted, whats to misinterpret?

[DCWat]

I stand by it appearing a more and more strange decision to recruit Defour.

Something really hasn't worked somewhere and it's not just his lack of endless running. I'm not sure what we were expecting him to turn in to as a player and I don't think we had the necessary personnel to fit him in.

Expecting more from a 29 year old who everyone knows what his game is about is naive at best.

[Belgianclaret]

CS, I get your point but in my line of thinking you adapt the framework to accommodate your best player,

[claretspice]

I stand by it appearing a more and more strange decision to recruit Defour.

Something really hasn't worked somewhere and it's not just his lack of endless running. I'm not sure what we were expecting him to turn in to as a player and I don't think we had the necessary personnel to fit him in.

Expecting more from a 29 year old who everyone knows what his game is about is naive at best.

Its quite simple. We knew we were signing a player with some question marks against him. Thats why he was available to us rather than being picked up by the 19 Premier League clubs with more pulling power. Unfortunately, not all those questions have been answered positively enough for him to be an automatic pick, given the other players we have - some signed subsequent to him. Thats all, no more complicated than that. He was a bit of a gamble that could have been glorious (and still might) but hasnt come good yet.

Belgian - simple fact is he's not been our best player, or anything closez although we did try changing formation to accomodate him in the Autumn.

[Lancasterclaret]

Hes saying Defour doesn't fit in the team on the video in the link I posted, whats to misinterpret?

If thats the link on the BBC, then you are interpreting it the way you want to, while I'm listening to what he says and basing my feelings on listening to what he says since he's being in charge.

[Right_winger]

Its quite simple. We knew we were signing a player with some question marks against him. Thats why he was available to us rather than being picked up by the 19 Premier League clubs with more pulling power. Unfortunately, not all those questions have been answered positively enough for him to be an automatic pick, given the other players we have - some signed subsequent to him. Thats all, no more complicated than that. He was a bit of a gamble that could have been glorious (and still might) but hasnt come good yet.

Belgian - simple fact is he's not been our best player, or anything closez although we did try changing formation to accomodate him in the Autumn.

Utter ballcocks.

Question marks really? the guy has over 50 caps for a top international side and has played for some top European teams.

The simple fact is we are not good enough for him and our gaffer is far too rigid and naive to solve this issue.

[claretspice]

Utter ballcocks.

Question marks really? the guy has over 50 caps for a top international side and has played for some top European teams.

The simple fact is we are not good enough for him and our gaffer is far too rigid and naive to solve this issue.

He's played in the Belgian and Portuguese leagues. Neither are top leagues. And these days, he's a fringe player for Belgium. Nothing more or less.

He's never played before in a league with the physicality, pace or intensity of the Premier League and international football has never been relevant as preparation for that.

As i said, no other club in the League wanted him. Despite what is by modern standards a relatively modest asking price. You can complicate it all you want but this is the bottom line.

[Right_winger]

He's played in the Belgian and Portuguese leagues. Neither are top leagues. And these days, he's a fringe player for Belgium. Nothing more or less.

He's never played before in a league with the physicality, pace or intensity of the Premier League and international football has never been relevant as preparation for that.

As i said, no other club in the League wanted him. Despite what is by modern standards a relatively modest asking price. You can complicate it all you want but this is the bottom line.

He was made captain of a title winning side before he was 20, standard liege I think it was. He's also played for Porto who are a top European side champions league experience too boot. in fact Anderlecht aren't too bad either, ask Man Utd.

How do you know, not 1 other premier league club wanted Defour? Is that just a bit of a guess?

[DCWat]

He's played in the Belgian and Portuguese leagues. Neither are top leagues. And these days, he's a fringe player for Belgium. Nothing more or less.

He's never played before in a league with the physicality, pace or intensity of the Premier League and international football has never been relevant as preparation for that.

As i said, no other club in the League wanted him. Despite what is by modern standards a relatively modest asking price. You can complicate it all you want but this is the bottom line.

In your opinion, Spice.

It may be as simple as that but I find it strange that we 'gambled' what might be a modest amount by modern standards, on a player that was never going to fit into a 4-4-2 in the Premier League.

If we thought that he might, we were naive. Are we saying that we can assess personality and character but can't work out if a player has the physical attributes for the league or system that we play? We shouldn't be gambling, we have to be astute with our money (Dyche has said as much himself) and I don't think we have been in this instance.

Of course every player purchase can be seen as a gamble but at least stack the odds as favourably as possible. That would mean at least having a method of getting him into the team. We've all seen enough of his quality to know that he's more than enough about him to create chances and chip in with goals, something we've been sorely lacking.

We will never know (he won't come good in the future because it's looking nailed on that he won't be with us) but I can't help but think that we've missed a trick with Defour.

[Rileybobs]

The fact that a guy who is good enough to play alongside the likes of Eden Hazard on the world stage cannot get into this Burnley team is quite frankly ridiculous. It's down to the manager to figure out a system that works for your best player, he seems unable to and that's his failure. I'm not having a pop at the gaffer btw, but unless Defours attitude in training is in question I don't see any other reason for Defour not to play.

Sam Vokes plays alongside Gareth Bale on the world stage. What's your point?

If your best player is Ronaldo or Messi I'd agree that you build a system around that player. In Defour's case it's absolutely not down to the manager to figure out a system that works for your best player. Defour's not even our best player which makes these kinds of suggestions all the more laughable.

[RingoMcCartney]

I remember defour saying there are no egos in the dressing room.

Perhaps HE is!? And that's the problem (if there is one)

Nevertheless, he certainly has a footballing brain, and perhaps has the ability to just do a bit of magic that can turn a game.

[Rileybobs]

In your opinion, Spice.

It may be as simple as that but I find it strange that we 'gambled' what might be a modest amount by modern standards, on a player that was never going to fit into a 4-4-2 in the Premier League.

If we thought that he might, we were naive. Are we saying that we can assess personality and character but can't work out if a player has the physical attributes for the league or system that we play? We shouldn't be gambling, we have to be astute with our money (Dyche has said as much himself) and I don't think we have been in this instance.

Of course every player purchase can be seen as a gamble but at least stack the odds as favourably as possible. That would mean at least having a method of getting him into the team. We've all seen enough of his quality to know that he's more than enough about him to create chances and chip in with goals, something we've been sorely lacking.

We will never know (he won't come good in the future because it's looking nailed on that he won't be with us) but I can't help but think that we've missed a trick with Defour.

Who was to say that we were going to play 4-4-2 all season though? We had a period of playing 4-5-1 in a system that could accommodate Defour. I imagine if that system was more successful than the 4-4-2 then we would have continued in that vain.

[claretspice]

He was made captain of a title winning side before he was 20, standard liege I think it was. He's also played for Porto who are a top European side champions league experience too boot. in fact Anderlecht aren't too bad either, ask Man Utd.

How do you know, not 1 other premier league club wanted Defour? Is that just a bit of a guess?

How do i know? Because he signed for the smallest, least glamourous and worst paying club in the league. And he's on record saying the choice was between us and Qatar. I'll leave you to join the dots.

And i'll also leave you to take a closer look at his career record since Liege.

[Devils_Advocate]

We dont need to build a system around Defour as one of our managers favoured formations includes Defour and utilises him well. It was also highly successful at home and saw us play some great football and have great success so its not too leftfield for supporters to want us to return to it given how predictable and stale we have been of late

[DCWat]

I could be wrong but seem to recall the five in midfield issue was that we were hopeless with it away. At home it was doing the job and we us some decent displays.

4-4-2 away has got us two points, perhaps we would have none had we stayed with 4-5-1, perhaps we would have more.

[Rileybobs]

I could be wrong but seem to recall the five in midfield issue was that we were hopeless with it away. At home it was doing the job and we us some decent displays.

4-4-2 away has got us two points, perhaps we would have none had we stayed with 4-5-1, perhaps we would have more.

Likewise, we may have had less points adopting 4-5-1 at home or we may have had more. We'll never know.

[Rileybobs]

The other issue with Defour is you don't know what you're going to get with him. I think Dyche wasn't keen on Stanislas for similar reasons. For all Arfield and Boyd's faults, of which there are plenty, you can bet your bottom dollar that they'll carry out their task to the letter.

Every player in our starting 11 is physically robust. We rarely lose players to injury during the 90 minutes and every player is fit enough to play the 90 minutes. In fact, I bet we favour very highly in terms of substitutions forced due to injuries. When Defour starts he invariably breaks down with an injury or is substituted with a decent chunk of time left as I can only improve his physical levels have dropped.

Dyche is a cautious manager, perhaps over-cautious. But I can absolutely understand why he doesn't start Defour and hope for the best when there's trusted and robust alternatives such as Hendrick and Barton available.

[RMutt]

Defour's defensive game isn't good enough for Dyche. He has realised that to win against premier league teams with our current squad we have to be defensively minded first. We cannot risk attempting playing expansive football because the players are neither good enough or quick enough. We don't play the ball from the back through midfield for the same reason. It's safety first and hope to nick a goal. We saw on Sunday how devastating quick breaks can be against us and I think he guards against this by having players who are more cautious in their approach. Dyche probably thinks Defour is too much of a luxury and that we need more combative players in midfield. It's not brilliant to watch but probably will keep us up and maybe with better and quicker players in the future things will change.

[Belgianclaret]

"Belgian - simple fact is he's not been our best player, or anything closez although we did try changing formation to accomodate him in the Autumn."

I find it hard to accept this argument: for me it is clear that Defour was (unjustly) sacrificed during and after the WBA game, and SD has been proven wrong in this decision for a simple reason that after axing Defour the away day problems have not improved.

I know that survival is the be all and end all this season, but these last few months I must say I haven't enjoyed watching our rigorous style of football.

Furthermore, I find the continuous allegations that the player is unfit completely strange and frankly totally unbelievable. He's a seasoned and settled professional who has always taken care of himself, and who chose England above a lucrative deal in the Middle East which would have set him up for life in just a few seasons...

How can we have signed a crock after he's been playing the last few years without any serious injuries, who I can assure you has a more than decent engine on him, and more importantly after he passed a medical without any problem? How can he be unfit when he's on the bench all the time, knowing Dyche's obsession with fitness? If he would be unfit to play, he'd certainly be unfit to sit on the bench if you ask me.

The whole "framework" argument just doesn't make sense and is sounding like a broken record.

If Defour doesn't start another game (certainly now with Barton's ban), I have to say my conclusion would be that SD is simply not capable of adapting the style of play in order to accommodate better players than the running machines who have served us well over the last years (all be it mainly in the championship), but who - in my humble opinion - are not good enough to keep doing so in future.

[Rileybobs]

"Belgian - simple fact is he's not been our best player, or anything closez although we did try changing formation to accomodate him in the Autumn."

I find it hard to accept this argument: for me it is clear that Defour was (unjustly) sacrificed during and after the WBA game, and SD has been proven wrong in this decision for a simple reason that after axing Defour the away day problems have not improved.

I know that survival is the be all and end all this season, but these last few months I must say I haven't enjoyed watching our rigorous style of football.

Furthermore, I find the continuous allegations that the player is unfit completely strange and frankly totally unbelievable. He's a seasoned and settled professional who has always taken care of himself, and who chose England above a lucrative deal in the Middle East which would have set him up for life in just a few seasons...

How can we have signed a crock after he's been playing the last few years without any serious injuries, who I can assure you has a more than decent engine on him, and more importantly after he passed a medical without any problem? How can he be unfit when he's on the bench all the time, knowing Dyche's obsession with fitness? If he would be unfit to play, he'd certainly be unfit to sit on the bench if you ask me.

The whole "framework" argument just doesn't make sense and is sounding like a broken record.

If Defour doesn't start another game (certainly now with Barton's ban), I have to say my conclusion would be that SD is simply not capable of adapting the style of play in order to accommodate better players than the running machines who have served us well over the last years (all be it mainly in the championship), but who - in my humble opinion - are not good enough to keep doing so in future.

Different leagues have different physical demands. It's fairly common knowledge that the English Premier League is more physically demanding than others in Europe.

I'm not sure how you can not have doubts about his fitness and general proneness to injury. He has hardly completed a 90 minutes to my knowledge and came off injured in his last start.

The whole 'framework' is what got us here and is likely going to lead to our highest league finish in decades. It's really strange that you would think that accommodating Defour is more important than the bigger picture.

With respect, it seems that you have a hard-on for Defour and it's seriously clouding your judgement.

[ablueclaret]

Belgian absolutely right the framework has become an albatross around SD's neck he is lost without it, but it is diminishing him as a manager, and the sides he puts out on the pitch, he has become BL all over again, the great tinkerer.

[Sidney1st]

The framework you clearly despise is on the verge of keeping us up......

When it does, what's going to be your argument then?

[Right_winger]

The post by Belgian claret is bang on.

Not completing 90 mins is nothing to do with fitness, Defour has never looked out on his feet.

[DCWat]

He's looked mightily ****** off at being brought off on pretty much every occasion, although he'd probably look ****** off if he was having the best day of his life.

I don't think fitness is the issue at all.